Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

[codefro]

I would just get started with doing a deep dive into the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) and sharing the basic information. If everybody were to truly accept and follow what is described in one of the basic catechisms that are available (Compendium of the CCC, YouCat, Baltimore Catechism, etc.) I think that we all would be in quite a good shape to receive the gift of salvation.

Just read the article “I Don’t Need your Catechism!” to have an idea of the message that I am trying to convey.

So as a recap- this is Dogma, that has been reinterpreted throughout the ages but has never been abandoned. And by “the church” we mean the church of Jesus Christ. RC falls into the church of Jesus Christ. Yes, no, maybe so?

 

[Cristiano]

You disagree with EENS being dogma, or that the two are inter-changeable? The latter is probably better suited for another thread, the former is undeniable.

I disagree with saying that dogmas are not doctrines. Dogmas are subsets of doctrines. Different doctrines have different levels of certainty. These are three links that I did find quite useful:

Dogma vs Doctrine - What is the difference?
Discussion here on CAF

A Summary of Fr. Hesse’s talk on the documents of Vatican II
some very good definitions in here even if you were to disagree with the goal of the article

A Summary of the Dogmas and Teachings of the Catholic Church
A list of doctrines based on their certitude

 

[Irish_Polock]

I disagree with saying that dogmas are not doctrines. Dogmas are subsets of doctrines. Different doctrines have different levels of certainty. These are three links that I did find quite useful:

Dogma vs Doctrine - What is the difference?
Discussion here on CAF

A Summary of Fr. Hesse’s talk on the documents of Vatican II
some very good definitions in here even if you were to disagree with the goal of the article

A Summary of the Dogmas and Teachings of the Catholic Church
A list of doctrines based on their certitude

For the sake of clarity in regards to EENS, can we agree that EENS is indeed dogma?

 

[Cristiano]

So as a recap- this is Dogma, that has been reinterpreted throughout the ages but has never been abandoned. And by “the church” we mean the church of Jesus Christ. RC falls into the church of Jesus Christ. Yes, no, maybe so?

You are correct EENS is dogma and thus it will never be abandoned because it cannot be abandoned. The Catholic Church is the the Church of Jesus Christ; however, Her full understanding could still be developed. I am no expert in ecclesiology, I encourage you to read the article “THE ECCLESIOLOGY OF VATICAN II” by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This material could be quite useful to get you thinking about the different aspects of the Church.

 

[po18guy]

I disagree, I would say that all dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogmas.

This is correct. Doctrine has the force and effect of Dogma, but has not been set in stone by being infallibly defined. Dogma exists only in response to heresy. Doctrines will become Dogma if they are seriously challenged by heresy. The proclamation of Dogma is intended as medicinal in nature, so that the faithful will not be lead astray.

 

[po18guy]

Well for the sake of evangelizing then, what is known?

What is known is that Christ founded a Church for our salvation, and that full membership in her is the best path to take. All other paths incur more risk. Basically, the entire Doctrine/Dogma states that salvation is tied to being Christian, a member of the one Church, and that outside of Trinitarian Christianity, there is no salvation.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? I most highly recommend it, as it will answer many of the questions that may arise during RCIA.

 

[codefro]

What is known is that Christ founded a Church for our salvation, and that full membership in her is the best path to take. All other paths incur more risk. Basically, the entire Doctrine/Dogma states that salvation is tied to being Christian, a member of the one Church, and that outside of Trinitarian Christianity, there is no salvation.

Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? I most highly recommend it, as it will answer many of the questions that may arise during RCIA.

I should get it.

 

[Traddie]

The sacrosanct Roman Church, founded by the voice of our Lord and Savior… firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

The Council of Florence (1438-1445) Cantate Domino - Pope Eugene IV

 

[At_Trent]

The Council of Florence (1438-1445) Cantate Domino - Pope Eugene IV

The sacrosanct Roman Church, founded by the voice of our Lord and Savior… firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Simple enough

‘It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace.’
St. Robert Bellarmine

 

[corsair]

“Nailed it again”, At Trent!

 

[At_Trent]

“Nailed it again”, At Trent!

Give Traddie the credit for posting the Truth. I just accept it

 

[JM3]

Well for the sake of evangelizing then, what is known?

This is known.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)