'Extra/other doctrines"?

[KathleenGee]

Christians have historically always believed in the Eucharist…the Great Heresy of ancient times was not believing in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

I don’t want to go any further.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christians have historically always believed in the Eucharist…the Great Heresy of ancient times was not believing in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

I don’t want to go any further.

Hey Kathleen,

I agree with you, but don’t see which post it was in response too.

 

[KathleenGee]

I was referring to the use of the word, transubstantiation…

The mainline Christians, most coincidentally, are the Anglicans and Episcopalians, who have alot of disagreements with us, are not as fractured away from the 7 sacraments as the fundamentalists…

The more they break away from Tradition and Scripture, the two dependent upon each other, the more they have all sorts of issues with what is just simply a human institution…I mean by that, people have to have standards, language to define a great mystery such as ‘Trinity’…and it is very hard for them to trust God working through human authority. Sometimes I think the more extreme have had some kind of previous experience in their life to relate to the Bible without a church to truthfully interpret as the Church does through the Holy Spirit.

If they come across to me, with what graces I have been given, and have too many issues, I have to pass…it gives me high blood pressure.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Kathleen,

Maybe I’m just a simple person, but I have always thought that Jesus was very straightforward about the most important things, because He knew that his audience, both those present & those down through the ages, would be an incredibly diverse group. So He spoke in clear, unambiguous terms.

Subsequent “human authority” is fine as long as that human authority supports the very clear, plain language of Jesus Christ. On the subject of the Eucharist, He couldn’t have been more clear, saying unambiguously that it was His Body and His Blood. For me, that’s the end of the discussion. For someone to believe otherwise is to say that Jesus was guilty, at the very least, of serious misdirection if not something far worse.

Unfortunately, when some humans think they can jump in and start re-defining and re-interpreting things, trying to change the meaning of these very clear words, the confusion begins. People won’t be confused if they return to the plain, clear meaning of the words of Jesus. Just my 2 cents.

 

[brkn1]

I have to say, the number of times I’ve seen the objection about ‘extra or other non-Biblical’ doctrines of the Catholic Church just doesn’t match up with the posts on this thread. Where are those objections, now that an opportunity to discuss them is being offered?

I have tried to be clear about what I see as an ‘extra or other non-Biblical’ doctrine of the Catholic Church.
I have stated that sin can only be cleansed by a believer’s acceptance and receiving of what Christ did at Calvary through the shedding of His Blood. This can easily be proven by the Bible.
The Catholic Church seems to somehow see a person’s own suffering as an added means of purging one’s sin. I’m guessing that Christ’s shed blood is added to the process in the Catholic explanation.
If someone could point out the biblical verses that directly prove or say that our own suffering cleanses or helps to cleanse our sin, I would be very interested in discussing such verses.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have tried to be clear about what I see as an ‘extra or other non-Biblical’ doctrine of the Catholic Church.
I have stated that sin can only be cleansed by a believer’s acceptance and receiving of what Christ did at Calvary through the shedding of His Blood. This can easily be proven by the Bible.
The Catholic Church seems to somehow see a person’s own suffering as an added means of purging one’s sin. I’m guessing that Christ’s shed blood is added to the process in the Catholic explanation.
If someone could point out the biblical verses that directly prove or say that our own suffering cleanses or helps to cleanse our sin, I would be very interested in discussing such verses.

We have tried to be equally clear that we are believers and accept Christ died for the sins of ALL. In believing, we accept and therefore receive. Is that all there is too it, or did Christ give us other instructions, through His teachings or through the inspired word of God?

There are many more scriptures than can be posted in a single thread, much less a single post. With that thought in mind, below please find scriptures telling us to share in His suffering.

**Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

Rom 8:16 For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit that we are the sons of God.
Rom 8:17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come that shall be revealed in us.

Php 1:28 And in nothing be ye terrified by the adversaries: which to them is a cause of perdition, but to you of salvation, and this from God.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him:

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

Heb 12:5 And you have forgotten the consolation which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord: neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him.
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct?

Heb 12:11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice.

1Pe 1:6 Wherein you shalt greatly rejoice, if now you must be for a little time made sorrowful in divers temptations:

1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy: if, for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, committing sin and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently: this is thankworthy before God.
1Pe 2:21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.**

As I said, there are many more instructions Christ gave us, that help us in our ‘walk’. Do all them ‘purge’ sins or help us in our walk? That depends on which particular subject you wish to discuss.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Are we mixing up purification, which is required to all to enter Heaven, and redemption? They’re not the same thing, although, from the outside, there may appear to be some similarities.

 

[KathleenGee]

It is the perception of people outside the church that see this image of power, riches, changing rules without context.

Our faith is the working of living Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, the two inseparable from each other…the Church like a sacrament in itself because being members we are nurtured in Christ by each other.

The Holy Spirit guides us through the teaching Magesterium of the Church the apostolic tradition of faith that brings peace, centering in the heart, and balance to one who believes, and the subduing of passions and opionions.

For people who have not experienced faith taught through the apostolic tradition, the best I can recommend is that they attend Mass some time, and ask some questions beforehand, and when arriving get a Missalette and if be so, have someone show them the Scripture readings for the day.

I think it is this image they have and not understanding the nature and mission of the church…so oftentimes they are looking in the wrong places.

 

[rdscheirer]

Dear JohnNC
I too used to be “lutheran” until I did a lot of research. Read what the early Church Fathers wrote and I believe you will come around to the Church. Luther changed the Bible- so what- it was so that he could assail the scripture and tradition handed down over 1500 years- what hubris. Remember St. Paul said remember the scripture and tadition we have taught.

 

[brkn1]

We have tried to be equally clear that we are believers and accept Christ died for the sins of ALL. In believing, we accept and therefore receive. Is that all there is too it, or did Christ give us other instructions, through His teachings or through the inspired word of God?

There are many more scriptures than can be posted in a single thread, much less a single post. With that thought in mind, below please find scriptures telling us to share in His suffering.

**Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. **

**Rom 8:16 For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit that we are the sons of God. **
**Rom 8:17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. **

**Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come that shall be revealed in us. **

**Php 1:28 And in nothing be ye terrified by the adversaries: which to them is a cause of perdition, but to you of salvation, and this from God. **
**Php 1:29 For unto you it is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him: **

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

**Heb 12:5 And you have forgotten the consolation which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord: neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. **
**Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. **
**Heb 12:7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? **

**Heb 12:11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice. **

**1Pe 1:6 Wherein you shalt greatly rejoice, if now you must be for a little time made sorrowful in divers temptations: **

**1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy: if, for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully. **
**1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, committing sin and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently: this is thankworthy before God. **
1Pe 2:21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

As I said, there are many more instructions Christ gave us, that help us in our ‘walk’. Do all them ‘purge’ sins or help us in our walk? That depends on which particular subject you wish to discuss.

We must walk in God’s light as (1 John 1:7) says, but that walk is not what is said to purge or cleanse us from sin. The same verse says that “the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
Jesus promised that there would be suffering in a believer’s walk, but there is no verse which declares that suffering to be capable of cleansing any sin. Only the blood of Jesus Christ is declared to cleanse us from all sin.
Any doctrine suggesting that our own suffering can cleanse us from any sin or impurity is not supported by the Bible.

 

[KathleenGee]

You need to interpret the Bible in truth and not in hostility against the Catholic Church…

We already know and believe what you share. You just don’t understand how we believe as Catholics.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We must walk in God’s light as (1 John 1:7) says, but that walk is not what is said to purge or cleanse us from sin. The same verse says that “the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
Jesus promised that there would be suffering in a believer’s walk, but there is no verse which declares that suffering to be capable of cleansing any sin. Only the blood of Jesus Christ is declared to cleanse us from all sin.
Any doctrine suggesting that our own suffering can cleanse us from any sin or impurity is not supported by the Bible.

I believe I see your misunderstanding brkn1. It maybe no more than ‘wording’ or ‘semantics’. Only the sacrifice of Jesus removes sin. But if all we had to do was believe in Jesus, coming down from heaven, suffering, dieing and rising again, our Bibles would be pamphlet size. The Bible tells us many things we should do as Christians/believers.

Also, please show me the ‘doctrine’ you’re referring too referencing suffering taking away sin.

 

[brkn1]

I believe I see your misunderstanding brkn1. It maybe no more than ‘wording’ or ‘semantics’. Only the sacrifice of Jesus removes sin. But if all we had to do was believe in Jesus, coming down from heaven, suffering, dieing and rising again, our Bibles would be pamphlet size. The Bible tells us many things we should do as Christians/believers.

I agree that only the Sacrifice of Jesus removes sin.
Any suggestion that sin could also be removed or cleansed by including, as some sort of “process”, our own suffering goes against the statement of Christ’s shed blood being the only means of cleansing our sin. The word “only” precludes any additions.

Also, please show me the ‘doctrine’ you’re referring too referencing suffering taking away sin.

The Catholic doctrine of “Purgatory” would be a good example of some sort of suffering on the part of a sinner being necessary for the removal of sin, which contradicts the idea of sin only being cleansed by Christ’s shed blood.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I agree that only the Sacrifice of Jesus removes sin.
Any suggestion that sin could also be removed or cleansed by including, as some sort of “process”, our own suffering goes against the statement of Christ’s shed blood being the only means of cleansing our sin. The word “only” precludes any additions.

The Catholic doctrine of “Purgatory” would be a good example of some sort of suffering on the part of a sinner being necessary for the removal of sin, which contradicts the idea of sin only being cleansed by Christ’s shed blood.

There maybe some suffering in Purgatory, no one really knows.

Let’s look at the definition of purgation.

pur·ga·tion (pûr-gshn)
n.
The act of purging or purifying.

Mat 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

Scriptures speak of ‘degrees’ of sin. There is sin and there is sin unto death.

1Jn 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.
1Jn 5:17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

Christ told us of a sin that would not be forgiven in this world OR the world to come. This infers that there is a possibility of sins being forgiven in the world to come, does it not?

Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

I believe, even if you disagree with the interpretation, it has been demonstrated that the belief of Purgatory comes from an interpretation of scriptures.

1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

 

[JonNC]

Dear JohnNC
I too used to be **“lutheran” **until I did a lot of research. Read what the early Church Fathers wrote and I believe you will come around to the Church. Luther changed the Bible- so what- it was so that he could assail the scripture and tradition handed down over 1500 years- what hubris. Remember St. Paul said remember the scripture and tadition we have taught.

Hi rdscheirer,
A bit off topic, but just a short response.
Since you were Lutheran, you know, or should know, that the only change Luther made was translation, and the order in which the books are presented. To claim the Luther’s intent was to assail scripture and Tradition is, in my opinion, a revision the history of the Reformation.

Why the quotes around Lutheran?

Jon

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I want non-Catholics to ask about doctrines of the Catholic Church that they feel is non-scriptural. It is my hope that through scriptural explanations, one can see the doctrine does come from scriptures, even if they don’t agree with the interpretation.

Purgatory is a good example, since the word ‘purgatory’ is not specifically used in scriptures.

Scriptures tell us one must be perfect to enter into heaven.

**Mat 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men and holiness: without which no man shall see God.

Jas 3:2 For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man. He is able also with a bridle to lead about the whole body.

Rev 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb. **

Scriptures give us examples of degree of sins. There are sins not to death and sins unto death.

1Jn 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.
1Jn 5:17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

The Old Testament gives us an example of sins being forgiven, yet a debt had to be paid.

**2Sa 12:13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die. **

Christ taught us, through parables, that every farthing had to be paid.

Mat 5:26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Christ spoke of sins that could not be forgiven in this world, or the world to come.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

St. Paul gives us some insight of a man’s works burning, yet the man himself shall be saved, as by fire, the same as purging or purgation.

1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

St. Peter wrote about Christ preaching the Gospel to those spirits that were in prison. Where is that spirit prison that Christ enlivened in the spirit preached? Where is it that the Gospel was preached to the dead?

1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison

**1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit. **

These are a few scriptural examples of where the teaching of purgatory comes from. There are more, and I invite other Catholics to help me fill in the ‘blanks’.

Well you are right that we draw different conclusions about the verses given, but I do appreciate that you have a scriptural foundation for your belief. I will try to give these some honest consideration.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Hi Prodigal Son,

Of course I cannot know what is in the minds and hearts of those who saw your thread but declined to post. I can only speculate.

Many people have very firmly held beliefs, but these beliefs are not always based on evidence/reason/knowledge. One of the things I actually LOVE about our faith is that it makes sense and many others of our faith have told me the same thing. The fact that it makes sense “works” for me. But not everyone bases decisions on reason, many make decisions based on emotion. Such decisions are hard to change, even with a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

And then there is the other problem. What if a long-held belief is explored and found to be false? Then something has to be done. As long as this sort of belief is left unexplored, nothing has to be done, nothing has to change. Many people fear to explore as a result.

Many people don’t like change. So they will cling to the familiar, even if they know that it may not be factual/correct simply because it is familiar. When you see no “takers” for your offer to explore various doctrines, that may be the reason. Of course, it also may not be. As long as there are no answers, you will not know. But at least now you might know some reasons why you don’t have a response. If someone learns the truth about something, they will no doubt feel forced to act on that. As long as they keep that truth away, the don’t have to change. Sad, but very human.

What am I not protestant enough for you!

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Are we mixing up purification, which is required to all to enter Heaven, and redemption? They’re not the same thing, although, from the outside, there may appear to be some similarities.

How do you distinguish the two?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

How do you distinguish the two?

Redemption gets one into heaven, even if they have to be purified before entering. One cannot depend on purification for redemption/salvation.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

It is the perception of people outside the church that see this image of power, riches, changing rules without context.

Our faith is the working of living Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, the two inseparable from each other…the Church like a sacrament in itself because being members we are nurtured in Christ by each other.

The Holy Spirit guides us through the teaching Magesterium of the Church the apostolic tradition of faith that brings peace, centering in the heart, and balance to one who believes, and the subduing of passions and opionions.

For people who have not experienced faith taught through the apostolic tradition, the best I can recommend is that they attend Mass some time, and ask some questions beforehand, and when arriving get a Missalette and if be so, have someone show them the Scripture readings for the day.

I think it is this image they have and not understanding the nature and mission of the church…so oftentimes they are looking in the wrong places.

I would love to attend a mass but I dont want to miss my church service. I have thought of stopping by the Catholic church to see what it looks like, Ive only seen them on tv.