Extraordinary Minister Holy Communion Question

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

, a great case can be made that he is acting if full obedience to the instructions of the Church on the use of EMHC’s.

In your humility you understate your conclusion. It isn’t merely a great case, it’s rock solid, no ifs, ands or buts. The document clearly states the guidelines for EMHCs and in your case and this particular priest there is nothing to argue about. It is not our place to challenge the teachings and instructions from the Magisterium. If anyone thinks this document is wrong, then they should apply for the position of pope next time its available and make the change.

 

[Phemie]

It may be the case that after a proper disernment he came to this conclusion. I would also hope that he consulted with liturgy council and pastoral council as part of the process. My original post was in a form of a question, that his this were a liberal or progress preist making a decision instead of a conservation priest would he be praised and defended in the same way?
His decision is being hailed because many on thise site like it. I may have clumsily first expressed my thoughts my indicating that the priest was extending his ignorance, his word not mine, but I do find it troubling a preist would eliminate all EMHC denying his parishioners a ministy that is allowed.

It’s an EXTRAORDINARY ministry that is only allowed in cases of true need.

I haven’t been a member of any parish in the last 35 years where a priest alone couldn’t distribute Communion in a timely fashion. If the priest wanted Communion offered under both species, one EMHC would have been necessary.

Instead, multiple EMHCs were recruited under the guise of getting as many people ‘involved’ as possible. I know, I was an EMHC and a member of parish councils and liturgical committees. Never was there talk of need for the ‘ministry’, there was was always talk of the need for ‘involvement’. When I became aware of the rules that applied to the use of EMHCs, I ceased to be one immediately.

 

[Phemie]

Actually, our parish was not build with communion rails. Our pastor lined up a series of prie deu to form a rail

You don’t even need a rail. In my parish, communion would go a lot faster if the people just lined up along the edge of the step into the sanctuary – it runs the full width – and Fr. just walked back and forth like they did when we knelt at the rail.

It’s funny, when H1N1 was on the go and we stopped Communion from the chalice and Father became the sole distributor of Communion we didn’t see much increase in the duration of the Communion procession. 5 minutes more, tops. Nobody complained. Granted we have a small parish but there are only 2 Sunday Masses, one on Saturday evening and one on Sunday morning and even if Communion took 20 minutes, you’d still end up with a Mass that was only 70 minutes on Sunday, even with singing.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

From the Baltimore Catechesim:

"368. Does he who knowingly receives Holy Communion in mortal sin receive the body and blood of Christ and His graces?

He who knowingly receives Holy Communion in mortal sin receives the body and blood of Christ, but he does not receive His graces and commits a grave sin of sacrilege."

Once again, I’m not making judgement, but here’s the math: if ten people a month go to Confession and a thousand go to Holy Communion, that mean 99% of the parishioners must not be sinning on a monthly basis to be properly disposed to receive the Blessed Sacrament as per Church laws. Unless we are living in one of the greatest times of saints, it’s fair to deduce sacrilege is going on in a lot of parishes.

I can only speak for my own soul, get to Confession in order to be properly disposed to receive Holy Communion. Given the math and my new awareness of things I am now certain I cannot participate in this act.

 

[FAB]

It’s an EXTRAORDINARY ministry that is only allowed in cases of true need

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

, but what’s the turnout at your weekly Sacrament of Confession? Mine is poorly attended. So poorly attended that if you aren’t there right at four o’clock on Saturday afternoon, Father is likely to move onto other things. I have many other things I could be doing on a Saturday afternoon as well. Given that only a couple people each week are there confessing, yet nearly everyone goes to Communion the next day, I think it is safe to at least ask the question.

This is another reason I am not comfortable in becoming an EMHC. Given my suspicions I may be an accessory to another’s sin by distributing the Blessed Sacrament to a body of people in which many of whom are not properly disposed.
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It’s fine if you don’t want to be an EMHC…that’s entirely within your rights.

However some things to think about:

1. If someone is not properly disposed…you are not an accessory to another’s sin. The priest gives communion…even to people who may not be properly disposed. We can never know for sure the state of one’s soul.
2. Here is an opportunity for you to be a shining example of how an EMHC should be…and to do it in the correct manner. People learn a lot by example.
3. Technically speaking you only have to go to confession if you are in a state of mortal sin. Now I go more often and I suspect you do too but if you receive communion in a state of venial sin…which let’s face it, is probably all of us…that is not wrong per current Church teaching.

How sad that you don’t have too many people…we have at least 10 people on Wed nights when there is confession…let alone Saturdays. So, there are plenty of people making use of the sacrament where I am. I also know that there are people who go to confession at different parishes…so you would not know if they go regularly or not.

 

[The_Idiot]

Well, that’s your church and that’s fine. We should be careful not to assume the ways of one’s personal church automatically stand for all the others.

I’m fond of intellectual curiousity and discussion. I find it amusing to talk with conspiracy theorists. I believe the brain is like any other muscle, it improves with use and stretching improves flexibility. If more people took time to think, to inquire, I believe we’d be better off.

Again, I don’t want to assume what goes on in your parish is indictitive of the whole, but what’s the turnout at your weekly Sacrament of Confession? Mine is poorly attended. So poorly attended that if you aren’t there right at four o’clock on Saturday afternoon, Father is likely to move onto other things. I have many other things I could be doing on a Saturday afternoon as well. Given that only a couple people each week are there confessing, yet nearly everyone goes to Communion the next day, I think it is safe to at least ask the question.

This is another reason I am not comfortable in becoming an EMHC. Given my suspicions I may be an accessory to another’s sin by distributing the Blessed Sacrament to a body of people in which many of whom are not properly disposed.

Already I’m anticipating the counter-arguments i.e. who am I to know the state of their souls, maybe they all go to Confession somewhere else, maybe you are in the presence of a legion of saints, etc. I’m not here to condemn anyone, just revealing my feelings and some elementary deduction. I welcome civil and charitable responses.

You state you are not here to condemn anyone - but that’s exactly what you are doing . You are questioning as to whether they are going to Confession elsewhere or perhaps not going at all .

That is a decision that THEY have to make for themselves . You should not be questioning it.

I admit that Confession on a Saturday afternoon may be rather difficult for some women who perhaps work all week - this time may be the only time that they can do the shopping for the next week . You have no idea as to whether they have found a Church they can get to that has Confession in an evening - or during their lunch break.

Try not to be so judgemental.

 

[Phemie]

The rules are simply the use is to be limited unless there is a need for them to distribute communion in a timely mannor. Understood. It happens that it becomes an added benifit to be able to involve the laity in the liturgy as well as for pastoral reason.

And therein lies the problem: this idea that the laity need to be doing something more than participating in the prayers and acclamations and responses that properly belong to them to be “involved in the Liturgy.”

Readers, EMHCs, musicians and/or ushers are not any more ‘involved in the Liturgy’ than the 10 year old or 90 year old in the pew giving the responses and listening to the readings. They may have different roles, but they are all involved.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

It’s fine if you don’t want to be an EMHC…that’s entirely within your rights.

However some things to think about:

1. If someone is not properly disposed…you are not an accessory to another’s sin. The priest gives communion…even to people who may not be properly disposed. We can never know for sure the state of one’s soul.
2. Here is an opportunity for you to be a shining example of how an EMHC should be…and to do it in the correct manner. People learn a lot by example.
3. Technically speaking you only have to go to confession if you are in a state of mortal sin. Now I go more often and I suspect you do too but if you receive communion in a state of venial sin…which let’s face it, is probably all of us…that is not wrong per current Church teaching.

How sad that you don’t have too many people…we have at least 10 people on Wed nights when there is confession…let alone Saturdays. So, there are plenty of people making use of the sacrament where I am. I also know that there are people who go to confession at different parishes…so you would not know if they go regularly or not.

It sounds like you belong to a wonderful parish Annabelle Marie. I suspect you are a positive contributor to it. I agree that we don’t know the disposition of someone’s soul. But as I described, Confession is not well attended in my town. I keep Mass and Confession schedules in my phone so depending on where I’m at I can attend the nearest. I can safely say that I know the participation rates of both Sacraments in my area. With this knowledge and the quote from the Catechesim, sacrilige is most likely occuring, thus I cannot condone it.

 

[Brendan]

Phemie;7565104:

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There is also an EXTRAORDINARY form of the mass, but I don’t see a call to end it , instead quit the opposite. You and I both know how the church uses the terms of ordinary, and extraodinary.
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There were two parts to OurLady’s post. Rome, via Redemptionis Sacramentum, states that the particular ministry under discussion is to be used only in true necessity.

There has been no such statement about the ExtraOrdinary from of the Mass, in fact, quite the opposite. Pope Benedict has stated that the faithful have a right to recieve the Sacraments in the Extraordinary Form. Do you have any similar statements that the faithful have a equivalent right to be EMHC’s?

You are quite correct that they are both extraordinary in nature, but Rome has issued different critiera on their use. As such the usages of both must follow what Rome has dictated.

 

[Brendan]

The rules are simply the use is to be limited unless there is a need for them to distribute communion in a timely mannor. Understood. It happens that it becomes an added benifit to be able to involve the laity in the liturgy as well as for pastoral reason.

What liturgical documents state that this involvement is a benefit at all?

I would ask you to look at Ecclesia de Mysterio

To avoid creating confusion, certain practices are to be avoided and eliminated where such have emerged in particular Churches:

• Extraordinary ministers receiving Holy Communion apart from the other faithful as though concelebrants;

-Association with the renewal of promises made by priests at the Chrism Mass on Holy Thursday, as well as other categories of faithful who renew religious vows or receive a mandate as extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion;

-The habitual use of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion at Mass thus arbitrarily extending the concept of “a great number of the faithful”.

So how do you define ‘habitual use’?

Given this, what parishes have a Daily Mass that involves ‘great numbers of the faithful’ and thus would require the use of EMHC’s. Does your parish?

Or is the usage in these cases really habitual, and thus must be avoided and eliminated.

 

[FAB]

And therein lies the problem: this idea that the laity need to be doing something more than participating in the prayers and acclamations and responses that properly belong to them to be “involved in the Liturgy.”

Readers, EMHCs, musicians and/or ushers are not any more ‘involved in the Liturgy’ than the 10 year old or 90 year old in the pew giving the responses and listening to the readings. They may have different roles, but they are all involved.

Yes there lies the rub. I believe that having the laity more involved add to their own spiritual journey with Christ. Our lectors, EMHC, choirs, cantors are all ministries that build the community. Often these roles help to lead to greater involvment in other areas of the church. Because of the nature of these ministries, they also have a deeper understanding of the liturgy and of the Lord. Yes, much more than the 10 year old and even the 90 year old who has come to church their entire life.

 

[PbloPicasso]

What liturgical documents state that this involvement is a benefit at all?

I would ask you to look at Ecclesia de Mysterio

So how do you define ‘habitual use’?

Given this, what parishes have a Daily Mass that involves ‘great numbers of the faithful’ and thus would require the use of EMHC’s. Does your parish?

Or is the usage in these cases really habitual, and thus must be avoided and eliminated.

My parish meets this criteria. We have 5 masses celebrated for the Sunday obligation. There are around well over a thousand families that are registered. All 5 masses are packed full. Hundreds of parishioners show up for confession on Saturday. And many show up for confessions on the first week of the month. So, by definition they priests are overwhelmed. They are good priests too, and do not engage in the normal lifestyles associated with diocesan priests who tend to have family and friends in the area that they gather with on occasion. These men are also religious that have traveled far from home to be with us, a mission territory. I"m defending them upfront because I know some of you will no doubt criticize them unjustly. The men are very spiritual and obey, as relious are required to do. Part of their vocation requires them to obey, period.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

Yes there lies the rub. I believe that having the laity more involved add to their own spiritual journey with Christ. Our lectors, EMHC, choirs, cantors are all ministries that build the community. Often these roles help to lead to greater involvment in other areas of the church. Because of the nature of these ministries, they also have a deeper understanding of the liturgy and of the Lord. Yes, much more than the 10 year old and even the 90 year old who has come to church their entire life.

Wow. The bolded part is quite the leap. So you are saying the EMHCs in my parish understand the Lord better than I do now? And if I joined their ranks I will understand Him better?

The guidelines for EMHCs have been posted several times. The particular priest in the case we discussed is clearly following the Magisterium’s instructions. Really…there is nothing more that should be argued about this. We don’t get to make up our own rules or amendments to existing rules.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Actually, our parish was not build with communion rails. Our pastor lined up a series of prie deu to form a rail

Here is a picture of my daughters First Holy Communion so you can see what I mean

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You can also see the vessel that is used for intinction. ( and my son with the paten)

The fact is, reception at the rail is a LOT more time efficent than using lines and that fact had more bearing on why EMHC’s were not needed in the Tridentine Mass than people who had not been to confession.

It is quite true that there were more substantial rules on the reception of communion ( fasting etc…) but really, more Catholics went to Mass as well, so it balances out.

I would be thrilled to see the mass return to this. I remember this as a child. I did not receive because I was too young or never trained about the Eucharist in time to do so. This is, however, what a local Anglican use parish does. My youngest son love this as do I.

 

[FAB]

What liturgical documents state that this involvement is a benefit at all?

I would ask you to look at Ecclesia de Mysterio

So how do you define ‘habitual use’?

Given this, what parishes have a Daily Mass that involves ‘great numbers of the faithful’ and thus would require the use of EMHC’s. Does your parish?

Or is the usage in these cases really habitual, and thus must be avoided and eliminated.

There is a spirital growth aspect for a person that serves as a EMHC which conservatives want to overlook. It cannot be found in any document, but it does exist. This spirituality benifts the church through these individual who understand the sacredness of their ministry. The document you quote is concerned about the causing confusion between the ordained and the laity. Althouogh a vital concern, I think it is overstated.
I would guess that your definition of habitual would be at every mass including daily. Yes my parish does. We also distribute communion under both species, so it becomes a necessity with a single priest.

 

[PbloPicasso]

There is a spirital growth aspect for a person that serves as a EMHC which conservatives want to overlook. It cannot be found in any document, but it does exist. This spirituality benifts the church through these individual who understand the sacredness of their ministry. The document you quote is concerned about the causing confusion between the ordained and the laity. Althouogh a vital concern, I think it is overstated.
I would guess that your definition of habitual would be at every mass including daily. Yes my parish does. We also distribute communion under both species, so it becomes a necessity with a single priest.

Especially old priests that I’ve seen lately who can barely stand for the mass and require assistance just to get up the steps to the altar.

 

[OurLadyPerpHelp]

There is a spirital growth aspect for a person that serves as a EMHC which conservatives want to overlook. It cannot be found in any document, but it does exist. .

Conservatives? What do conservatives have to do with following the rules?

Is this spirit you speak of the spirit of Vatican II?

 

[Brendan]

My parish meets this criteria. We have 5 masses celebrated for the Sunday obligation. There are around well over a thousand families that are registered. All 5 masses are packed full. Hundreds of parishioners show up for confession on Saturday. And many show up for confessions on the first week of the month. So, by definition they priests are overwhelmed. .

FYI, my parish has 7 Masses for the Sunday obligation. ( I posted the list a bit earlier).

We have 973 registered families and yes, each Mass is packed. (Well the EF Mass and 8:00pm Masses is only about 1/2 full)

Our pastor hears confessions a half hour before every Mass (every day of the week. We have 2 daily Masses 9:00am and noon ) and for 3 additional hours every Saturday. There is always a line for confession.

There is one priest at our parish, as our associate was reassigned. He recieves assistance from retired priests at our 11:30am and 8:00pm Sunday Masses.

My pastor is a diocesan priest, but he came from Eastern Europe.

We use no EMHC’s.

 

[FAB]

Wow. The bolded part is quite the leap. So you are saying the EMHCs in my parish understand the Lord better than I do now? And if I joined their ranks I will understand Him better?

The guidelines for EMHCs have been posted several times. The particular priest in the case we discussed is clearly following the Magisterium’s instructions. Really…there is nothing more that should be argued about this. We don’t get to make up our own rules or amendments to existing rules.

No it is not a leap, it comes from personal experiance of my own and of training and instructing EMHC for a number of years. Since we encouorage our ministers to participate in retreats, offfer daily pray and recieve the sacrament of reconciliation on a regualr basis, which all lead to a deeper spiritual life and yeas to know our Lord in a much deeper way. As a priest of deacon, how to become closer to to the Lord, they will include these items.
The Magisteriums instructions say that EMHC can be used when necessary. Many parishes find it so, this priest apparently doesn’t. There are benifits beyond the action of distributing the presious body and blood, which benifit the Church as a whole.