Extraordinary Ministers

[TimOliv]

If the church allows it and they disagree with it, how can you say that* “It doesn’t technically disagree with the teachings of the church”*?

If you are going to quote me, I suggest you take the statement within its proper context.

Nick is saying he believes the Priest should be the only one handling the Eucharist. Which IS how it is done within the context of the Tridentine and Eastern Rites Liturgies. So no, he does not disagree with the teachings of the church, he disagrees with the manner in which things are permitted in the Novus Ordo. There is a difference.

If the church universally allowed Eucharistic ministers, then there would be EMHC’s in Eastern Rite and Churches which celebrate the Tridentine mass. There are not. Novus Ordo is not the only facet of the church.

 

[TimOliv]

Yes - those who make use of EMHCs and those which permit receiving on the hand.

I don’t think that we as individuals have permission from anyone to forbid to others what the Church permits them. If an individual chooses not to receive on the hand, that’s fine - but we can’t go around telling other people that they can’t. The Church has already told them that they can.

How are we forbidding to anyone anything? I’m not forcing people to stop receiving on the hand (I personally do not care either way as long as the sacrament is being received). No one is telling people what they can and cannot do, people are discussing what they believe. Its a DISCUSSION BOARD, without some dissent, there is no DISCUSSION. If you don’t want to DISCUSS on the DISCUSSION board, go read a book.

 

[John_Higgins]

Ah, so many things to comment on…

First, I am honored to serve as an EMHC, and my britches fit fine, thank you.

Next, my wife and I went to a Tridentine Low Mass and she knelt at the communion rail and received in the hand. The altar server was puzzled, but the priest didn’t skip a beat. If the ministers at an NO Mass have to give the communicant his/her choice, it should be that way at the Tridentine as well.

I think many here would be delighted to roll the Church back to 1958, or 1558, or 558, for that matter. Good luck with that.

John

 

[Victorious]

No they are not. They lack the capacity to confect the Eucharist. They are ordinary ministers of Holy Communion, which is different.

According to CIC 900, “The minister who is able to confect the sacrament of the Eucharist in the person of Christ is a validly ordained priest alone.”

You are quite right. My bad.

 

[TimOliv]

Ah, so many things to comment on…

First, I am honored to serve as an EMHC, and my britches fit fine, thank you.

Next, my wife and I went to a Tridentine Low Mass and she knelt at the communion rail and received in the hand. The altar server was puzzled, but the priest didn’t skip a beat. If the ministers at an NO Mass have to give the communicant his/her choice, it should be that way at the Tridentine as well.

I think many here would be delighted to roll the Church back to 1958, or 1558, or 558, for that matter. Good luck with that.

John

Forcing Tridentine priests to give communion in the hand? What a glorious idea to bring about unity. Until it ends up causing a schism. Perhaps we should force the Eastern Rite Priests to give communicants choices in how they receive?

 

[mommyaprilj]

Abolished for liturgical use - YES. Everything happening on the Liturgy must show our Catholic Faith - it is called Lex Orendi - Lex Credendi.

A lay person distributing Holy Communion does not show any Catholic Doctrine whatsoever and can be confused with Protestant Heresy due to previous church teaching that taught of the sacreligiousness of lay people touching the Sacred Host.

When they came out with “Ex Mins” and Communion in the hand they said it was to express our own “priesthood”.

Abolished for bringing Holy Communion to the sick - also YES. The priests need to get off their duffs and do what they are supposed to do! They even have two days of communion services at a local parish here so that the priest can have two days off!!! So Holy Mass is abolished for those two days at the parish.

And at my parish THERE ARE NO EXTRAORDINARY MINISTERS. Father runs everywhere doing sick calls himself and bringing Holy Communion- and also distributing It Himself at the communion rail every day and twice on Sunday! To a PACKED CONGREGATION as well.

THEY ARE NOT NEEDED!!! Not needed at all.

Ken

I’m sure our priest would love to “get off his duff” as you say but you see he’s in Iraq seeing to the spiritual needs of the soldiers and airman who are away from their families, serving their country. So, we’re functioning essentially alone, without daily Mass, with a priest driving from over an hour away on Sunday do provide us with a Mass, he isn’t the youngest man in the world, so I’m sure he does the best he can. Prehaps you should think before you make sweeping generalizations about things you don’t always understand. Or if you’re single, prehaps you should think about if prehaps you are being called to help reduce the priest shortage instead of criticising those of us who step up and work hard to help fill in the gaps. I trained long and hard to become a EMHC and I do not take that lightly, I don’t goof off, I don’t behave like I’m the priest, and I was invited to join the EMHC ministry.

 

[prv]

It doesn’t technically disagree with the teachings of the church. The Eastern Rite and anyone observing the TLM would not have anyone except a priest (and in some cases a deacon) handle the Blessed Sacrament.

At the Maronite Catholic Church here in San Antonio, the subdeacon also assists in the distribution of Holy Communion.

 

[prv]

Forcing Tridentine priests to give communion in the hand? What a glorious idea to bring about unity. Until it ends up causing a schism. Perhaps we should force the Eastern Rite Priests to give communicants choices in how they receive?

With the way Communion is distributed in the Easter Churches (namely the Byzantine ones), that would be a most glorious mess of a way to offer our Precious Lord to the people.

 

[TimOliv]

At the Maronite Catholic Church here in San Antonio, the subdeacon also assists in the distribution of Holy Communion.

Throughout the liturgy, the priest will bless the congregation using the handcross, the Gospel, and the Eucharist itself, both before and after Communion. Holy Communion is given only by intinction. There is no Communion in the hand and there are no Eucharistic ministers. Only the bishop, the priest, the deacon or the subdeacon give communion. It is done with the words, “The servant of God … receives the Body and Blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.”

Taken From: ourladysmaronite.org/aboutrite.htm

But Subdeacons are ordained, whereas EMHC’s are not.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Novus Ordo is not the only facet of the church.

But it IS a facet of the Church and they are in disagreement with it.

But Subdeacons are ordained, whereas EMHC’s are not.

Subdeacons are a MINOR Order and the formal training that they receive is less than that of a full Deacon. Acolytes are also ordained and their formal training is even less than that of a Subdeacon. I would have no problem in requiring EMHC’s to be ordained Acolytes and Subdeacons.

I suspect that the reason why this is not done is because it would exclude female EMHC’s.

 

[TimOliv]

But it IS a facet of the Church and they are in disagreement with it.

Subdeacons are a MINOR Order and the formal training that they receive is less than that of a full Deacon. Acolytes are also ordained and their formal training is even less than that of a Subdeacon. I would have no problem in requiring EMHC’s to be ordained Acolytes and Subdeacons.

I suspect that the reason why this is not done is because it would exclude female EMHC’s.

Then you are holding us all to a double standard, my friend. It is a facet of the church a person disagreed with, you admonished him for that disagreement. But just above this post someone said that Priests offering the Tridentine Liturgy should be forced to offer communion in the hand. You said nothing to that person. So we’re allowed to disagree with the other facets (Eastern Rites and Traditional Latin) but not with Novus Ordo?

I agree, if EMHCs were ordained Acolytes or Subdeacons I would have far fewer problems with the office. As it stands its an altar server-esque position with the ability to distribute communion. But I do agree with you on that, though, I wouldn’t mind ordaining EMHCs. If that, excluded women from this role, I’d say it was unfortunate for them.

 

[Sir_Knight]

If that, excluded women from this role, I’d say it was unfortunate for them.

No, that would be unfortunate for the church because the EMHC’s that you see during mass are a subset of the total EMHC’s. I’ve been an EMHC for almost a year and I have distributed communion at mass only once and that was when the celebrant called my name from the altar asking if I could assist in the distribution.

Instead of normally distributing at mass, I minister to the homebound. I presently have seven people that I minister to. Three of them are weekly and four of them are monthly. Assuming 4 weeks in a month, that comes out to 16 communion distributions a month (3x4=12+4=16). Each visit takes at LEAST an hour … 20-30 minutes there, 20-30 minutes back and 5-10 minutes for the communion distribtion. For some of them, I am the only person that visits them and they wish to talk and I might spend half an hour or more listening to them.

From my observation, women make up at least 50% of EMHC’s, if not more. If they were excluded from this function because they can not be ordained Acolytes or Subdeacons, that would mean that my assignment would at LEAST double from 16 communion distribtions a month to 32 a month.

I honestly don’t know it I could live up to that additional responsibility. I have a family, a job, etc.; and I don’t think that I could minister to all of them in the same frequency that I do now.

And who would that be unfortunate for? The sick, the elderly and the homebound. They would be denied receiving the Eucharist because there would not be enough people to minister to them. They would be the unfortunate ones.

 

[TimOliv]

No, that would be unfortunate for the church because the EMHC’s that you see during mass are a subset of the total EMHC’s. I’ve been an EMHC for almost a year and I have distributed communion at mass only once and that was when the celebrant called my name from the altar asking if I could assist in the distribution.

Instead of normally distributing at mass, I minister to the homebound. I presently have seven people that I minister to. Three of them are weekly and four of them are monthly. Assuming 4 weeks in a month, that comes out to 16 communion distributions a month (3x4=12+4=16). Each visit takes at LEAST an hour … 20-30 minutes there, 20-30 minutes back and 5-10 minutes for the communion distribtion. For some of them, I am the only person that visits them and they wish to talk and I might spend half an hour or more listening to them.

From my observation, women make up at least 50% of EMHC’s, if not more. If they were excluded from this function because they can not be ordained Acolytes or Subdeacons, that would mean that my assignment would at LEAST double from 16 communion distribtions a month to 32 a month.

I honestly don’t know it I could live up to that additional responsibility. I have a family, a job, etc.; and I don’t think that I could minister to all of them in the same frequency that I do now.

And who would that be unfortunate for? The sick, the elderly and the homebound. They would be denied receiving the Eucharist because there would not be enough people to minister to them. They would be the unfortunate ones.

They would be replaced. There exist rites within the church which do not have female EMHCs (I feel like I am beating a dead horse every single time I mention this). Yet they do fine. Ordain the EMHCs, they will come, the ones truly dedicated to the service will attend their trainings and come forth and be ordained. By your definition we should just up and ordain women because it will ease the hardship.

 

[Sir_Knight]

They would be replaced.

By whom? When I was recruited by my pastor less than a year ago, I was told that I would be ministering to only one or two people who live in “my area”. I am now, less than a year later, up to seven and most of them are nowhere near me. They’ve been added to my plate because there are not enough EMHCs and those of us that are serving in this role are gradually being given more responsibility.

There exist rites within the church which do not have female EMHCs (I feel like I am beating a dead horse every single time I mention this). Yet they do fine.

Please tell me how you can say with 100% certainty that they are “doing fine” and that the sick, the elderly and the homebound are receiving Communion and in the frequency that they would like?

Ordain the EMHCs, they will come, the ones truly dedicated to the service will attend their trainings and come forth and be ordained.

That is wishful thinking that they will come but the reality of the matter shows that your statements are incorrect. Priestly and religious vocations have been on the decline and there is nothing that I am aware of to indicate that this trend is reversing itself. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share it with us.

By your definition we should just up and ordain women because it will ease the hardship.

No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that we should fully utilize what the infallible church has approved so that all may benefit from it.

 

[TimOliv]

By whom? When I was recruited by my pastor less than a year ago, I was told that I would be ministering to only one or two people who live in “my area”. I am now, less than a year later, up to seven and most of them are nowhere near me. They’ve been added to my plate because there are not enough EMHCs and those of us that are serving in this role are gradually being given more responsibility.

Please tell me how you can say with 100% certainty that they are “doing fine” and that the sick, the elderly and the homebound are receiving Communion and in the frequency that they would like?

That is wishful thinking that they will come but the reality of the matter shows that your statements are incorrect. Priestly and religious vocations have been on the decline and there is nothing that I am aware of to indicate that this trend is reversing itself. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share it with us.

No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying that we should fully utilize what the infallible church has approved so that all may benefit from it.

The only places where the vocations are suffering are the places where the church just keeps getting more and more liberal…

 

[Sir_Knight]

That may or may not be true. I do not have evidence to support or dispute it. But I am not going to criticize Christ’s church and say that it errored either in it’s teachings or it’s practices because that would turn Jesus into a liar since He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church.

 

[TimOliv]

That may or may not be true. I do not have evidence to support or dispute it. But I am not going to criticize Christ’s church and say that it errored either in it’s teachings or it’s practices because that would turn Jesus into a liar since He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church.

I’m not criticizing Christ’s church, I am criticizing your claim that the church would be neglecting the homebound or elderly without female EMHCs. A claim which you made earlier with regards to the priests of other rites. I’ve not heard of a vocation crisis within orders offering the Latin mass, so were you to belong to one of their churches, I do not think you’d have to fear being “neglected” because your parish is not as “enlightened” as the Novus Ordo. All of your statements so far have been criticizing me for criticizing the NO (whereas I am simply defending some of the practices of the TLM and Eastern Rites). So you seem to be saying that Eastern Rite, TLM and Novus Ordo are all valid but Novus Ordo is more valid than the other two…

 

[jmcrae]

They would be replaced. There exist rites within the church which do not have female EMHCs

… and also have fewer than 100 members in the whole city. One priest can do them all, no problem. Yes, they don’t need EMHCs, because they have a very low population.

Contrast that with 8,000-25,000 parishioners in each parish of the Latin Rite (so-called “novus” ordo), each with one or two priests and maybe a deacon. If you don’t want to still be serving Sunday Mass on Monday morning, you’ll want some help with the distribution of Holy Communion, yes?

 

[TimOliv]

… and also have fewer than 100 members in the whole city. One priest can do them all, no problem. Yes, they don’t need EMHCs, because they have a very low population.

Contrast that with 8,000-25,000 parishioners in each parish of the Latin Rite (so-called “novus” ordo), each with one or two priests and maybe a deacon. If you don’t want to still be serving Sunday Mass on Monday morning, you’ll want some help with the distribution of Holy Communion, yes?

The TLM churches are packed to the hilt, my friend. Their attendance would make any parish priest jealous. Yet, they don’t have EMHCs and often have multiple priests per parish…

 

[jmcrae]

The TLM churches are packed to the hilt, my friend. Their attendance would make any parish priest jealous. Yet, they don’t have EMHCs and often have multiple priests per parish…

“Often??” Do you just make stuff up because it sounds good? What kind of a seminary are you attending? Do they permit you to just “wing it” like this in the essays and reports that you write for them?

HERE is a list of the North American TLM apostolates. The highest number of TLM priests I can see for any one Diocese is four. They have two TLM parishes, there, so it’s extremely unlikely that you would “often” see more than two TLM priests at any specific Mass, even in that Diocese.

The majority of them only have one priest.

(Maybe you are confused because the lay altar servers at the TLM Masses also wear clerical-style garments when they are serving? The priest is the one who is wearing the little black hat.)