Failure to understand the thought process

[farronwolf]

I have only been a member on this forum for a short while, so this is not directed at forum members specifically.

Murder is wrong, we all can agree on that, at least I hope.

When someone uses a gun and murders someone, in general we don’t blame the gun, we blame the person for the murder and want them held accountable. The only real exception is when someone uses a so called “assault weapon”, then some folks want to blame the gun as well as the person, not necessarily for the murder, but the number of murders that go with that scenario.

When someone commits a robbery, we blame the robber and want that person accountable for their actions. When someone is caught with drugs, we punish them for that and blame them for their actions. Some give those addicted to prescription drugs a pass and want to assign some blame to the doctors for over prescribing the narcotics in the first place. I can see that rational.

Basically, the crime/sin is the fault of the person who chooses to commit the offense, and they should be held accountable.

However, when it comes to abortion, not many are willing to come out and blame the woman who gets the abortion, and hold her accountable for her actions in seeking and getting an abortion. She is the one who sought to kill her baby, and the only one who can consent to the act taking place. Yes, I am certain there are times when a woman is pressured into seeking an abortion, but she must sign the paperwork and consent to the procedure.

Why if one agrees that it is the murder of a soul does one not seek to punish the woman for murder just as one would for any other murder, or crime that goes against our laws or morals?

Seems there is much discussion about how this is the most important social issue in our country today.

I don’t understand that thought process. If abortion was somehow deemed illegal, I would 100% be for punishing anyone who sought and got an abortion just as I would any other murderer.

Very interested in how members of the forum would justify their positions for or against punishment, and why or why not punishment should or shouldn’t fit the crime.

 

[HopkinsReb]

I think the “doctors” who perform them should be severely punished.

As for the women who seek them out…I think many are misled about what’s happening (just look at how hard the pro-abortion crowd fights to ensure that mothers never see an ultrasound of their baby before having it killed) and many are desperate. We take these types of things into account with other crimes and they should be considered with abortion as well. It’s a prudential decision as much as a moral one. On the prudential side, it’s the same reason you want to go after dealers, not junkies.

 

[strita]

There are a lot of hypotheticals in your statement, such as that the law will ever be turned back on legalization of abortion.

I once had the opportunity to speak via phone to Mother Angelica on her “Live” program about abortion. My point was that what was needed to stop abortion was evangelization, so women would not get into the situation of needing an abortion or otherwise wanting an abortion. She was not impressed.

If you just take on the issue head on, you do make it illegal, but that in itself will probably not stop women from procuring an abortion. What’s needed is deep conversion. But, all this may be beside your point.

 

[farronwolf]

We as a society go after both drug dealers and the users, one reason our prisons are so full.

Doctors would be akin to the dealers. If there weren’t a demand, there wouldn’t be a supply.

 

[HopkinsReb]

We as a society go after both drug dealers and the users, one reason our prisons are so full.

Doesn’t seem to be working too great, does it?

Ask anybody in the narcotics world if they’d rather catch a dealer than a junkie and they’ll tell you they want to get the dealers.

Doctors would be akin to the dealers. If there weren’t a demand, there wouldn’t be a supply.

There can be a supply without a demand. It’s called a surplus; happens all the time.

There can also be a demand without a supply. It’s called a shortage; happens all the time.

I’m not averse altogether to punishing the women who seek out abortions as well as the men who urge them to do so. But they’re just accomplices; the murder is carried out by the “doctors.”

 

[redbetta]

In addition to what the others have said, women, in general, get more leniency when it comes to punishment for crimes.

 

[farronwolf]

There are a lot of hypotheticals in your statement, such as that the law will ever be turned back on legalization of abortion.

I once had the opportunity to speak via phone to Mother Angelica on her “Live” program about abortion. My point was that what was needed to stop abortion was evangelization, so women would not get into the situation of needing an abortion or otherwise wanting an abortion. She was not impressed.

If you just take on the issue head on, you do make it illegal, but that in itself will probably not stop women from procuring an abortion. What’s needed is deep conversion. But, all this imay be beside your point.

I fully agree with what you are saying. I don’t believe anything will ever stop all abortions.

But that is not my question. Why if abortion is murder, don’t many of those that feel it is murder want those punished the same as those who commit murder daily in our streets. I have met very few people who would agree to imprison women who got an abortion.

 

[FrancisFan43]

I agree with you. Just bare in mind we live in troubling times. Where right is wrong and wrong is a right. Where the devil doesn’t exist and I have the liberty to harm myself however I see fit.

Convincing these people of sanity is a task that can be achieved successfully with the grace of God. Make sure to pray for them and be in a state of grace for maximum effectiveness. And if push comes to shove and they get hostile with you, brush the dust off your feet, pray for them and walk away, for your own sake.

 

[HopkinsReb]

I have met very few people who would agree to imprison women who got an abortion.

We don’t have enough prisons, for one things.

 

[redbetta]

They may be worried that, if we imprison the women, they might not want to work with police to identify the abortionist.

 

[farronwolf]

I’m not averse altogether to punishing the women who seek out abortions as well as the men who urge them to do so. But they’re just accomplices; the murder is carried out by the “doctors.”

You realize there is a pill a woman can take with no doctors intervention to abort the fetus. Morning after pill.

If I hire someone to murder someone, I will certainly get sent to prison along with the person who I hire to commit the murder.

 

[HopkinsReb]

You realize there is a pill a woman can take with no doctors intervention to abort the fetus. Morning after pill.

Yes, I do. Not generally what we’re talking about when we talk about abortion, but yes, you’re correct.

If I hire someone to murder someone, I will certainly get sent to prison along with the person who I hire to commit the murder.

Yep.

I’ve said nowhere that the women aren’t guilty. I’ve said that there’s a prudential consideration – going after the dealer is more effective than going after the junkies – and that there’s a moral consideration – the women involved are often desperate and misled, while the doctors know full well what they’re doing.

 

[farronwolf]

So because they are women, or the jails might be too full, or abortions will never be banned, or any other number of reasons, many would choose not to punish a woman for choosing to kill their own child. Those don’t seem to be reasons, but excuses.

See how I fail to understand the thought process.

Anyone care to share their personal reasons for not wanting to hold them accountable, and the though process that goes with it?

 

[IdaCatholic]

I agree with you. If abortion is ever brought up at our prayers of the faithful it is to pray for healing for women who have had an abortion. While I do think that’s a valid concern, I never hear prayers for the babies or for those who work to end abortion. We sure do pray a lot for other “political” causes.

 

[tommy37]

I think the reason is because most Catholics/Christians feel that most women who have abortions do so because they are essentially brainwashed by this false idea that has been legal now for so long. I think we see them as essentially victims of an erroneous belief system that for their entire lives up until the abortion has infected the cultural air they and those around them have breathed. And seeing and hearing the painful stories of those who’ve had abortions backs up that position that many women at least, just don’t know what they are doing.

I’m not even talking about the ones who are pressured but the ones who just think that it’s Ok. They’ve been taught in one way or another that their immediate happiness and contentment is what matters most. This is the religion of the secular world we live in.

They’ve been told by everyone involved (including very often parents and good friends) that it’s just a “blob of tissue” or whatever. Only later do many of them realize what they’ve done and then they are crushed with guilt and pain. No one can “punish the woman for murder” as you said because it is legal. There is nothing that individual Christians can do to “punish them”. Nor should they.

As Christians we are more likely to want to encourage them to “hold themselves accountable” to the Lord; to seek the Lord and his forgiveness and healing power then to judge them as murderers. And work to raise awareness of the preciousness of life and the wrongness of killing your child to solve your problem. And of course, pray for them.

 

[farronwolf]

So women are too ignorant to know what they are doing, and are victims?

Because they may feel guilt afterwards there is not need for societal punishment. Pretty sure some murderers feel guilt, should we give them a pass too?

The premise of my question is if somehow we banned abortions. After all, that is what so many people use as a justification for voting one way or another. To somehow be able to ban abortion.

I am trying to get at what happens after it is banned. Do we punish women for the murder of their child, and if not why not.

 

[tommy37]

Obviously if it is illegal then yes there would have to be societal punishment. Obviously. Because then society would be sending the message that this is wrong as opposed to now where the message is–“It’s fine, go ahead, it’s not the same as the murder of a person who is seen alive and walking around.”

 

[goout]

…

Very interested in how members of the forum would justify their positions for or against punishment, and why or why not punishment should or shouldn’t fit the crime.

People don’t often address the moral decision making in abortion. They obscure, they waffle, they deflect. They construct hypotheticals to numb the conscience. The immorality of abortion is so hideous that it is difficult to look in the face. Because it is difficult to look in the face, people are forced to construct nonsensical “morality” hypotheticals. Like the violinist argument for instance.

(As an aside, the next time I hear a Catholic apologist address the violinist “argument” as if it merits the time of day, I’m going to throw my computer in the trash. Stupidity like the violinist “argument” are void of substance…)

 

[TULIPed]

I have met very few people who would agree to imprison women who got an abortion.

I wonder how Jesus would handle confronting a woman who had an abortion? Let me think…was there ever a time Jesus ran into a sinful woman while he was here…a woman who perhaps felt she was an outcast because of what she had done…maybe even felt shameful about it. Sure would be nice if there was example like that…

 

[goout]

farronwolf:

I have met very few people who would agree to imprison women who got an abortion.

I wonder how Jesus would handle confronting a woman who had an abortion? Let me think…was there ever a time Jesus ran into a sinful woman while he was here…a woman who perhaps felt she was an outcast because of what she had done…maybe even felt shameful about it. Sure would be nice if there was example like that…

If the woman suffering from guilt merits compassion, how much more does innocent life merit compassion. The woman at least has the power and the reasoning to make decisions and have a growing relationship with Christ. The child has no power and no opportunity to know God more fully in this life.

Christ advocates for the powerless first.