Failure to understand the thought process

[TULIPed]

“Vengeance is mine.” Some day - soon hopefully - the state will come to its senses and outlaw abortion once and for all. All of us - Catholics and Protestants alike - have a duty to see this through. However, once a woman has an abortion, I believe the precious child is with Christ, thank God.

We’re commanded to deal with what’s left. We can do this like Christ did - which is to speak to, listen to and love the woman, or we can cast stones. As for me and the crystal cathedral I live in, I’ll leave the stones untouched.

 

[goout]

“Vengeance is mine.” Some day - soon hopefully - the state will come to its senses and outlaw abortion once and for all. All of us - Catholics and Protestants alike - have a duty to see this through. However, once a woman has an abortion, I believe the precious child is with Christ, thank God.

We’re commanded to deal with what’s left. We can do this like Christ did - which is to speak to, listen to and love the woman, or we can cast stones. As for me and the crystal cathedral I live in, I’ll leave the stones untouched.

Good to hear.
Your points are normally used by the pro abort community in the name of compassion for the woman at the expense of the child.
As we agree, compassion is not either/or, it’s both. And as a prime good, for the life of the child first.

 

[amys1]

Hi there, I was a sinner. I had an abortion when I was younger. I agree with you 100%. But as a child of our Beloved Father and Saviour, I have suffered many consequences. Although not legally, spiritually, emotionally and mentally I have suffered greatly. I do not say this to complain but to bring glory to Our Father who chastises His Children. We are under the law submitted by our nation state, but also Jesus fulfilled the true law and He cares for all his sheep, especially the lost ones. Forgive us for making terrible choices as God forgives us and as we forgive others.

 

[TULIPed]

Hi there, I was a sinner.

Hi there. I am a sinner. Like you read about. So you’re in good company. I’m so sorry to hear about your past. But I’m thankful for our shared King and his mercy and love. Nobody says it like St. Paul:

“Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”

 

[amys1]

Thank you so much!

 

[farronwolf]

Some day - soon hopefully - the state will come to its senses and outlaw abortion once and for all. All of us - Catholics and Protestants alike - have a duty to see this through.

Yes Christ forgave the sinners, not just the women. While nailed to the cross he was still forgiving sins.

The question isn’t whether or not we would feel sorrow for the woman, or try to console her, or help her with her past decision.

The question is if abortions were banned, ie illegal, why would we treat a woman any different than we would treat a murderer by any other means.

Yes, we would try to help, feel sorrow for, and forgive the person who shot and killed someone during a robbery, but I don’t see folks advocating that they not be sent to jail. Maybe there are people who don’t think anyone should ever go to jail or be punished for wrongdoing. I haven’t met one yet.

 

[amys1]

I wish it hadn’t been so easy to access. You are right. I carry my regret.

 

[amys1]

I would go to jail if it would help anything. Jesus didn’t force that punishment at that time. I don’t know.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

I think all you people who think women who have abortions deserve prison sould come back when you’ve experienced a crisis preganacy yourselves and cast your stones then.

Arresting women who had illegal abortions would serve only to protect illegal abortionists and cause the deaths of women who are too afraid to seek medical attention afterwards when things go wrong.

And it demonstrates exactly zero compassion for the unique situation women find themselves in when experiencing a crisis pregnancy.

 

[farronwolf]

I think all you people who think women who have abortions deserve prison sould come back when you’ve experienced a crisis preganacy yourselves and cast your stones then.

Arresting women who had illegal abortions would serve only to protect illegal abortionists and cause the deaths of women who are too afraid to seek medical attention afterwards when things go wrong.

And it demonstrates exactly zero compassion for the unique situation women find themselves in when experiencing a crisis pregnancy.

I am not saying that the women wouldn’t be in need of compassion, forgiveness, or help other ways. People who commit crimes deserve compassion, forgiveness and help. But we don’t do those things generally without some form of punishment as well.

Every crime has a unique set of circumstances.

What would make murder in the form of abortion different than other murders, and require no punishment. That is what I am still waiting on someone to justify if they can.

 

[JimG]

Before 1973, when abortion was illegal or restricted in some states, the law did not punish women for obtaining an abortion. The law penalized abortionists who performed abortion. I expect that if the law is changed, the same will apply. And it should.

The law does not typically punish every single user who possesses even a small amount of illegal drug. But it goes after those who supply and push illegal drugs.

And if women are punished for abortions, should the man who impregnated her be punished as an accessory? How about the mother or father who ordered her to have an abortion or be out of the house? How about the politicians and judges who made it possible?

 

[Thorolfr]

HopkinsReb:

I’m not averse altogether to punishing the women who seek out abortions as well as the men who urge them to do so. But they’re just accomplices; the murder is carried out by the “doctors.”

You realize there is a pill a woman can take with no doctors intervention to abort the fetus. Morning after pill.

If I hire someone to murder someone, I will certainly get sent to prison along with the person who I hire to commit the murder.

Do you believe that a woman who uses a morning after pill preventing implantation of a one celled fertilized egg in the uterus should be punished to the same extent as a woman who has a third trimester abortion?

 

[ShrodingersCat]

The fact that the victim is inside the woman’s body and she has to gestate it makes it pretty unique.

 

[Questioner2]

Why, yes, of course those that murder babies should be locked up for as long as possible if not forever…

And the man that recklessly impregnated a fertile woman should be locked up as well for his crime

I think a man should have to get a thrice notarized, legally enforceable contract before ejaculating in the same room as a woman …

But definitely those baby murdering selfish women should be punished as the murderers they are!

Original poster do you agree?

 

[farronwolf]

The law does not typically punish every single user who possesses even a small amount of illegal drug. But it goes after those who supply and push illegal drugs.

And if women are punished for abortions, should the man who impregnated her be punished as an accessory? How about the mother or father who ordered her to have an abortion or be out of the house? How about the politicians and judges who made it possible?

So we are now equating the mass of parasitic cells inside of a woman to a small amount of drugs.

Not really the comparison I would use when trying to make an argument for why abortion should be illegal.

If we are going to make sex outside of marriage illegal, I suppose you could punish the male for impregnating a woman, but I am thinking that is quite a bit off the stated topic.

The politicians and judges who would make it illegal to have an abortion, as is the wish for many on this forum, would have no culpability if a woman got an abortion illegally.

 

[farronwolf]

farronwolf:

HopkinsReb:

I’m not averse altogether to punishing the women who seek out abortions as well as the men who urge them to do so. But they’re just accomplices; the murder is carried out by the “doctors.”

You realize there is a pill a woman can take with no doctors intervention to abort the fetus. Morning after pill.

If I hire someone to murder someone, I will certainly get sent to prison along with the person who I hire to commit the murder.

Do you believe that a woman who uses a morning after pill preventing implantation of a one celled fertilized egg in the uterus should be punished to the same extent as a woman who has a third trimester abortion?

No, absolutely not. I did misstate what I was meaning when I was talking about the morning after pill, due to my ignorance.

I was actually meaning to refer to a couple of other drugs used for abortion mifeprex and cytotec.

My bad.

 

[farronwolf]

Why, yes, of course those that murder babies should be locked up for as long as possible if not forever…

And the man that recklessly impregnated a fertile woman should be locked up as well for his crime

I think a man should have to get a thrice notarized, legally enforceable contract before ejaculating in the same room as a woman …

But definitely those baby murdering selfish women should be punished as the murderers they are!

Original poster do you agree?

The man usually has no say so in the abortion. My wife if she chose to could get an abortion without my consent. Even if I didn’t recklessly impregnate her as you suggest. Men have no rights whatsoever, for the most part, to their child until it is born.

I agree that if abortion is made illegal in this country, there should be punishment for obtaining one, absolutely.

If I somehow cause the death of a fetus while in the mother in my state, I can be charged with fetal homicide and prosecuted for murder. Why should there be a double standard depending on who is doing the killing?

 

[farronwolf]

The fact that the victim is inside the woman’s body and she has to gestate it makes it pretty unique.

Unless someone else kills it against her wishes, and then it is fetal homicide and prosecuted as murder. Then it is no longer unique.

It is only unique if the woman wants it to be. Again, exactly why I don’t understand this thought process.

 

[Questioner2]

The man usually has no say so in the abortion. My wife if she chose to could get an abortion without my consent. Even if I didn’t recklessly impregnate her as you suggest. Men have no rights whatsoever, for the most part, to their child until it is born.

Yeah, and that’s a problem, right? How dare she choose all by herself whether to try to gestate this unwanted pregnancy to term. How dare she?

What about the man who impregnated her and his rights? Do women have far too many human rights? Should a man be able to petition the police and courts to kidnap and imprison a woman to ensure that she does not murder her fetus? Force her to undergo medical care and force feed her to ensure a healthy pregnancy? And of course confiscate her baby immediately after birth…birth she undergoes while forcibly restrained…just in case, baby murder that she is.

Then she should go to jail for a long time for attempted murder.

 

[farronwolf]

So to bring this back to the originally stated topic.

You feel there should be no punishment for a woman who gets an abortion if somehow abortion was made illegal in this country.

Could you please state your justification for that reasoning?