S
sandusky
Guest
Therefore, having been justified by faith we have peace with God.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
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Therefore, having been justified by faith we have peace with God.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
G
guanophore
Guest
No, I don’t disagree that the most important work with regard to salvation was done by Jesus on the cross. However, His sacrifice does not apply unless one chooses to participate in it, and that requires that faith be mixed with grace, and that requires action on the part of the person:Is that Catholic?
I always thought that scripture teaches that the most important work was done by Christ on the cross. Do you disagree?
John 6:28-29
29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
A person’s refusal to accept the saving work of Christ in no way makes it of less value. It just means the grace purchased by Him on our behalf is not received.
M
mikeledes
Guest
“Unjustified” as in “never justified before.” Was Abraham justified in Genesis 12? Can a person have the gift of faith and not be justified?
God Bless,
Michael
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
Obi-wan, the dark force is strong in Sandusky.
Talk about a serious distortion of the definition of a word!:bigyikes:
unjustified
c.1340, “not punished or executed,” from un- (1) “not” + pp. of justify. Meaning “not proven to be right or proper” is attested from 1685.
unjustified
adjectivelacking justification or authorization; “desire for undue private profit”; “unwarranted limitations of personal freedom” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/undue”]undue]
Main Entry: un·jus·ti·fied
Pronunciation: "&n-'j&s-t&-"fId
Function: adjective
: not justified <an unjustified intrusion>
Now tell me padawan Sandusky, which definition implies your “Previously Justified”?
S
sandusky
Guest
mikeledes said:
That is not what unjustified means.
I’m not playing that game. The thrust of the thread is, “it’s easy to disprove sola fide, and to prove that justification is a process.” So far, it’s not been easy for you.
Instead of asking me the question that is supposed to be easy for you to prove, prove it.
Only the elect are given the “gift” of faith, and the “gift” of justification.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
Maybe young padawan Sandusky is confused and was probably actually thinking about do and undo
un·do http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngcache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif /ʌnˈdu/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationuhn-doo] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
*–verb (used with object), ***-did, -done, -do·ing. **1.to reverse the doing of; cause to be as if never done: *Murder once done can never be undone. *2.to do away with; erase; efface: *to undo the havoc done by the storm. *3.to bring to ruin or disaster; destroy: *In the end his lies undid him. *4.to unfasten by releasing: *to undo a gate; to undo a button. *5.to untie or loose (a knot, rope, etc.). 6.to open (a package, wrapping, etc.). 7.Archaic. to explain; interpret.
[Origin: bef. 900; ME; OE *undōn; c.
poor poor padawan.
un·do http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngcache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif /ʌnˈdu/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationuhn-doo] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
*–verb (used with object), ***-did, -done, -do·ing. **1.to reverse the doing of; cause to be as if never done: *Murder once done can never be undone. *2.to do away with; erase; efface: *to undo the havoc done by the storm. *3.to bring to ruin or disaster; destroy: *In the end his lies undid him. *4.to unfasten by releasing: *to undo a gate; to undo a button. *5.to untie or loose (a knot, rope, etc.). 6.to open (a package, wrapping, etc.). 7.Archaic. to explain; interpret.
[Origin: bef. 900; ME; OE *undōn; c.
poor poor padawan.
S
sandusky
Guest
]
Main Entry: un·jus·ti·fied
Pronunciation: "&n-'j&s-t&-"fId
Function: adjective
: not justified <an unjustified intrusion>
Now tell me padawan Sandusky, which definition implies your “Previously Justified”?
We are not speaking the language of Merriam-Webster here, but of the apostle Paul.The erroneous Catholic understanding of justification is that one is repeatedly justified; that is why I asked for a clarification; that’s the point of the discussion: when was Abe justified?
As Catholic Dude rightly pointed out, not yet justified is the correct term.
Hope that helps, and thanks for trying. :tiphat:
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Multiple times, starting at Gen 12. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” [Gen 12] So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. -Gal 3:8f
This is compounded by the fact he could not have been pleasing God from Gen 12-14 had he not been justified.
Thats a bad way to start off a post.
Find the article and link to it asap.
S
sandusky
Guest
Catholic Dude:
In what verse does Scripture state that Abraham was justified?
Catholic Dude:
I’m not complaining about easy, I’m laughing about it.
You are the one who said it was easy to disprove sola fide, and to prove that justification is a repeated process; so far you’ve not proven either; therefore, I conclude that is not easy, as you say it is.
There is an old axiom that I dearly love; it goes like this:Easy to prove, is easy to sayGet it?
Catholic Dude:
Now that’s easy to do.
Pure eisegesis: the word justifies appears with the name of Abraham in a verse that refers to Gen 12; therefore (you assume), Abraham was justified in Gen 12—pure speculation, and assumption.
In what verse does Scripture state that Abraham was justified?
Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude, you are not clairvoyant, so stop acting like you are.
I’m not complaining about easy, I’m laughing about it.
You are the one who said it was easy to disprove sola fide, and to prove that justification is a repeated process; so far you’ve not proven either; therefore, I conclude that is not easy, as you say it is.
There is an old axiom that I dearly love; it goes like this:Easy to prove, is easy to sayGet it?
Catholic Dude:
So far you’ve proven it to yourself, and to others who hold the same theology.
Now that’s easy to do.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Game! I love games! :extrahappy: Which one are we playing? I wan’t aware that I was involved in a game.
On a serious note, you evade questions that pose serious challenges to your theology by accusing us of playing games or trying to make “you squirm” and then proceed not to answer the question. The question I ask is directly connected to the nature of justification. You said only the elect receive the gift of faith. Abraham had the gift of faith in Genesis 12. If by faith we are justified, was Abraham justified back in Genesis 12? Why are you afraid to answer this question?
I would like to add the following verse:
Psalm 106:30-31 (KJV)
**30Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
31And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore. **
Psalm 106:30-31(NASB)
**30Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.
31And it was reckoned to him for righteousness,
To all generations forever. **
Deuteronomy 24:13
13In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the LORD thy God.
What Phinehas did (i.e. a work) was reckoned to him for righteosuness. Please explain this verse and Deuteronomy 24:13 to me.
God Bless,
Michael
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
This isnt an “assumption” or “speculation”…the context of Gal 3:8 is dealing with justification as you admit. It mentions the gospel being preached to Abraham in Gen 12. It mentions that people are saved with the same faith Abraham had.
It doesnt get any more plain than the Riddle of the Thinx (the Catholic version of the Riddle of the Sphinx):
Was Abraham justified in Genesis 12?
Yes or No?
All it took was a “yes” or “no” to a yes/no question…
M
mikeledes
Guest
Don’t hold your breath on it. The fact that he refuses to answer “yes” or 'no" indicates that the answer is “yes.”All it took was a “yes” or “no” to a yes/no question…
God Bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
Is there anything that you don’t assume?
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
I wont assume…please answer “yes” or “no” so people dont have to.
We realize you are between a rock and a hard place, but the fact is you have to be brave enough to stand up and face the music.
L
Linkowski
Guest
What was the root of the work?? It was his faith.Game! I love games! :extrahappy: Which one are we playing? I wan’t aware that I was involved in a game.
On a serious note, you evade questions that pose serious challenges to your theology by accusing us of playing games or trying to make “you squirm” and then proceed not to answer the question. The question I ask is directly connected to the nature of justification. You said only the elect receive the gift of faith. Abraham had the gift of faith in Genesis 12. If by faith we are justified, was Abraham justified back in Genesis 12? Why are you afraid to answer this question?
I would like to add the following verse:
Psalm 106:30-31 (KJV)
**30Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed.
31And that was counted unto him for righteousness **unto all generations for evermore.
Psalm 106:30-31(NASB)
30Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.
31And it was reckoned to him for righteousness,
To all generations forever.
Deuteronomy 24:13
13In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the LORD thy God.
What Phinehas did (i.e. a work) was reckoned to him for righteosuness. Please explain this verse and Deuteronomy 24:13 to me.
God Bless,
Michael
As I always say, the root of sin is unbelief and the root of good works is faith. Faith is the underlying root of good works. Faith without works is dead.
Craig L…Justified by faith that works, not faith and works
L
Linkowski
Guest
I read an essay by James Akin yesterday that tried to give scriptural support for a mixture of sanctification and justification. Unfortunately, it is in error and the credibility of Mr. Akin compromised in my eyes (sorry, I had the article link and lost it). The idea in the article was this…
Passage Used
Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed (same word for justified) from sin.
The context, Mr. Akin was saying, is about sanctification - but then, he states, the greek word for justified pops up in verse 7!
The conclusion was that justification and sanctification are intermingled. However, this passage is speaking to the idea that we are sanctified at salvation - a past event. There is progressive sanctification and positional sanctification.
Also, at justification, we are freed from the law…therefore freed from sin…what does that mean. The answer is in Romans 7:
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.”
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
This passage indicates a past event and not a progressive process…
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
So, when we become free from the law we become free from the law in the sense that we are no longer servant to the law (which includes the 10 commandments - as indicated by verse 7). You see then, how the law works sin…but then becoming freed from the law…we now can serve righteousness. So, the passage in Romans 6 is not speaking of progressive sanctification (so that we can say justification is also progressive), but positional sanctification, a past event…
1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Once justified - the next step is glorification! Freed from the law AND ITS PENALTY… Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Here is where we have the major upper hand…we can show very clearly from scripture that it is TAUGHT as a past event. You, on the other hand, have foggy speculation. I would rather look into a clear mirror to get the picture correct than a foggy one.
May God Show Us…
Passage Used
Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed (same word for justified) from sin.
The context, Mr. Akin was saying, is about sanctification - but then, he states, the greek word for justified pops up in verse 7!
The conclusion was that justification and sanctification are intermingled. However, this passage is speaking to the idea that we are sanctified at salvation - a past event. There is progressive sanctification and positional sanctification.
Also, at justification, we are freed from the law…therefore freed from sin…what does that mean. The answer is in Romans 7:
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.”
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
This passage indicates a past event and not a progressive process…
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
So, when we become free from the law we become free from the law in the sense that we are no longer servant to the law (which includes the 10 commandments - as indicated by verse 7). You see then, how the law works sin…but then becoming freed from the law…we now can serve righteousness. So, the passage in Romans 6 is not speaking of progressive sanctification (so that we can say justification is also progressive), but positional sanctification, a past event…
1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Once justified - the next step is glorification! Freed from the law AND ITS PENALTY… Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Here is where we have the major upper hand…we can show very clearly from scripture that it is TAUGHT as a past event. You, on the other hand, have foggy speculation. I would rather look into a clear mirror to get the picture correct than a foggy one.
May God Show Us…
L
Linkowski
Guest
I am not sure why you are hung up on Genesis 12. Is it the moment that a person steps into a church the time that they are justified? Absolutely not. It is not until one completely submits themselves to Christ as Lord in reptentance and wholeheartedly trusts in the crosswork of Christ for salvation. All of those things done previous to that point can be shown as God’s drawing of that person to Christ. I have written a post shown just above which is only a small portion of what scripture TEACHES. You are trying to put puzzle pieces of fuzzy speculation together while we are trying to show you what the Bible says.This isnt an “assumption” or “speculation”…the context of Gal 3:8 is dealing with justification as you admit. It mentions the gospel being preached to Abraham in Gen 12. It mentions that people are saved with the same faith Abraham had.
It doesnt get any more plain than the Riddle of the Thinx (the Catholic version of the Riddle of the Sphinx):
Was Abraham justified in Genesis 12?
Yes or No?
All it took was a “yes” or “no” to a yes/no question…
Jimmy Akin gave it a shot (as I show above) to try to make the assertion that scripture TEACHES justification as a process but fell well short of that. I wonder if his presentation of Romans 6 was his own or also a reference made by the CC. Regardless, the attempt to present what he wanted to present does not fly well.
M
mikeledes
Guest
If someone were to ask me whether I stole Catholic Dude’s Bible and I evade giving an answer, what would that person think? Why should I be afraid of proclaiming my innocence by saying “no”? The only thing I would be afraid of is saying yes.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Indeed, works must be rooted in faith. But note that what is being reckoned as righteousness is a work done in faith, not faith apart from works.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Linkowski, we are justfied by faith, right? Faith is a gift of God, right? Abraham had the gift of faith in Genesis 12, right? Was he justified in Genesis 12?
God Bless,
Michael
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