Faith Alone disrupted in 3 easy steps!

[Randy_Carson]

The only thing you are doing consistently is asserting a claim, and claiming the assertion is true.

Sandy-

Since Gen 12 is referenced in Hebrews 11 when Paul is clearly cataloging a list of OT heroes who lived by faith, it is reasonable for us to assume that Abe had the “good faith”, the “saving faith” in Gen 12 or Paul would not have included this moment in the roll call.

However, as has been pointed out previously in this thread, many if not MOST, non-Catholics tend to refer to Gen 15 as Abraham’s moment of justification while pointing to Gen 22 as simply proof “before men” of his justification. This explanation completely misses or simply passes over the implications of Gen 12/Heb 11.

I think that’s an error forced by their theology that is not supported by the scriptures.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[toothdigger]

If your a Catholic who gets bogged down when Protestants bring up Romans 4 to “prove” that Abraham was saved by faith alone, dont be worried…simply remember these three verses:

Hebrews 11:8 (quoting Genesis 12)
Romans 4:3 (quoting Genesis 15)
James 2:21-24 (quoting Gen 22)

These verses show that Abraham had saving faith long before the event in Romans 4, from this we see Protestantism cannot be right in claiming Abraham was justified once and for all by a single act of faith in Romans 4 (Gen 15:6). On top of that we see Abraham being justified later in his life as James 2:22 teaches. The reason this can happen is because you can increase in justification/righteousness as you continue to obey God, which proves the Catholic understanding of salvation. This is summarized in Galatians 5:6 as “faith working through love,” not a one time act of faith.

What in the world would make anyone think that Protestants believe that works are not a necessary part of salvation? You can not ignore “God can not be mocked. A person reaps what he/she sows.” or “Run the race…” etc. All a Protestant believes is that faith is a gift, not an earning. After accepting the gift, the proof of having opened the gift is what you do with it… which translates into love (work)… Thanks… btw, I am a Roman Catholic… recently converted…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The only thing you are doing consistently is asserting a claim, and claiming the assertion is true.

You’re inconsistent in your argument, in that, against CG99’s argument, you said that the verses he offered said nothing about justification; neither do the verses you offer say anything about justification, but obedience, and faith, with which no one has disagreed; but you have still not proven justification in the verses you offer.

YES, but I have PROOF behind my claims. You would dare say Abraham didnt have faith in Gen 12.

As for what CG99 said and my response, let me officially retract that,

Dude:

ClearGospel:

Dude:

So he was justified before he was even born?

Indeed,
Why are you shocked?
Did not the same thing happen to Jacob?
Romans 9:10-12
10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[a]Multiple problems here. -]First it doesnt say they were justified in that verse, so right there your claim doesnt stand./-]** **Second if you claim justification takes place before birth, you make justification during life superfluous. Third, it contradicts your theology because Abraham was then justified twice. Fourth, what your saying is justification is not by faith alone because it is before birth.

I originally said “multiple problems here” which you totally disregarded in your response to me.
I should not have said that, so I retract it. HOWEVER that in NO WAY takes away from the “Multiple Problems” I addressed and were later ignored by you and CG. Those multiple problems still stand.

Next, I have provided verses, but they are so damming to the historic Protestant claims of faith alone that I wouldnt be surprised if your in some kind of shock.
Look at Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” Gen 12] So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
You cant argue that Gen 12 is not talking about justification when the Bible is clear above that Gen 12 involved the Gospel and faith of Abraham that leads to the same justification as the Gentiles. (On top of that consider Gal 3:16 → Gen 12:7 for the same result).

Sand:

Dude:

The protestant must now answer how he had faith in God and was pleasing to God yet was not justified.

You started the thread; why do I have answer anything? All I’ve asserted on this thread is that you continually assert your position, and claim it to be true; anybody can do that.

You are OBLIGED to answer fairly and honestly the second you hit the REPLY button. I have presented a CASE and it conflicts with your theology, if you cant answer how Abe had faith and pleased God yet was not justified then that says something about your theology not mine.

The verses you cite stated Abe had faith, and was obedient, and you assert from that that he was also justified; I’m waiting for you to make that case; not just assert that it is so, but support your assertion.

With respect to Abe, both Paul and James cite one passage with respect to Abe’s justification, and that passage is different from the passages that you cite.

He logically had to have been justified at that point or else protestantism is in a huge bind concerning how much faith and how long it takes to get justified.

What??? I have to help you make your case; you go find the reformed creeds and theologians you disagree with.

Methinks you grabbed this 3 easy steps argument from somewhere, and didn’t give it much thought before posting it; it seems it ain’t so easy

I asked for a reformed source so I dont have to play the guessing game of “Oh Protestants dont believe that Catholic Dude, where are you getting your information?” I want the sources to show the protestant what they believe and keep them fair and honest, not shifting like sand every time the discussion progresses.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Sorry, I haven’t read the whole thread, just the first page, and I’m curious about something…what is the purpose of salvation for Catholics?

Salvation is the means by which man is reconciled to God and how he attains the reward of Heaven for obeying God’s Will.

 

[adamdesmond]

Salvation is the means by which man is reconciled to God and how he attains the reward of Heaven for obeying God’s Will.

Hmmm. Interesting. Is this official doctrine, or your own thoughts?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hmmm. Interesting. Is this official doctrine, or your own thoughts?

Its my own words.

 

[sandusky]

Randy Carson:

Sandy-

Since Gen 12 is referenced in Hebrews 11 when Paul is clearly cataloging a list of OT heroes who lived by faith, it is reasonable for us to assume that Abe had the “good faith”, the “saving faith” in Gen 12 or Paul would not have included this moment in the roll call.

That is the question: at what moment did Abe have this “saving faith.” Clearly, Heb 11 is neither a treatise, nor an exposition on justification, but a highlighting of the role of faith in the lives of individuals who were central to the saving purposes of God (vv4–31), with particular attention given to Abraham and Sarah (vv8–19) and Moses (vv23–28). Again, the passage is not an exposition on justification, and neither is Gen 12; for an exposition on justification,see Romans 4:1ff.
Randy Carson:

However, as has been pointed out previously in this thread, many if not MOST, non-Catholics tend to refer to Gen 15 as Abraham’s moment of justification while pointing to Gen 22 as simply proof “before men” of his justification. This explanation completely misses or simply passes over the implications of Gen 12/Heb 11.

The reason that Gen 15 is appealed to is that it is a clear statement of the means of justification—faith—and that justification is a “reckoning,” or an imputation in the declarative sense.

And Gen 22 is much more than simply a demonstration “before men” of Abe’s justification. In Gen 22, God tested Abe’s faith, and as James points out in the beginning of his epistle that testing of faith produces patience, and perseverance, which is an important virtue to the Christian, and is often mentioned by Jesus (Lk. 8:15; 21:19; cf Mt. 10:22), and Paul (Rom. 5:3–4; 8:25; 2 Cor. 6:4; 12:12).

So it is fitting that in the second chapter of his epistle, James refers to Gen 22, and Abe, to demonstrate a true, patient, and enduring faith because scripture records that event as the first testing of anyone’s faith.
Randy Carson:

I think that’s an error forced by their theology that is not supported by the scriptures.

A knife that cuts both ways.
Catholic Dude:

Next, I have provided verses, but they are so damming to the historic Protestant claims of faith alone that I wouldnt be surprised if your in some kind of shock.
Look at Galatians 3:8

The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” [Gen 12] So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

You cant argue that Gen 12 is not talking about justification when the Bible is clear above that Gen 12 involved the Gospel and faith of Abraham that leads to the same justification as the Gentiles. (On top of that consider Gal 3:16 → Gen 12:7 for the same result).

Shock; right; I never knew Gal 3:8 existed until you posted it.

What cannot be denied is that the HS was moved to record indisputably, and only that the faith that justified Abe occurred because of the event of Gen 15:4; namely, ”your heir will come forth from your own body; the testimony continues in v6, “THEN he believed in the Lord…”
Catholic Dude:

He logically had to have been justified at that point…

Your logic is theologically driven.

…or else protestantism is in a huge bind concerning how much faith and how long it takes to get justified.

It took longer for me to believe the gospel than it did for Abe, so that point is incredibly weak, and there is no bind in that whatsoever; any problems that you persceive for the protestant exist in your imagination; I follow the testimony, and not some magisterium, which is absent from the testimony; so too does Paul follow the testimony, and he refers neither to Gen 12, nor to Heb 11 to expound his doctrine of justification, but to Gen 15, specifically, v6.
Catholic Dude:

I want the sources to show the protestant what they believe and keep them fair and honest, not shifting like sand every time the discussion progresses.

Yes protestants on this forum are so unfair, and like shifting sand in their discussions, and they need you to keep them honest.

 

[adamdesmond]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

I find these kinds of arguments generate more division in the body than the answer could possibly be worth. Let’s look at this argument where the rubber meets the road.

We are all saying you have to have faith. And no one is arguing that a Christian should avoid good works. We are only arguing about whether the word “salvation” can be applied to what we do. It seems to me that another message from the Bible could be applied here.

2 Timothy 2:14 - Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

We are all basically saying “have faith in God through Jesus Christ and conform yourself to His image through communicating with Him and obeying His commandments.”

Why does it matter what we call it?

 

[cleargospel99]

I invite everyones attention to Romans 8:30

“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

Is this not saying: {P}={C}={J}={G}

The believer cannot be in one set without also belonging to all the others.

 

[Bishopite]

Then maybe I am misunderstanding:

What do you mean that Abraham was justified twice?

Can you show me the verse that says Abraham was** justified**?

I’m still not following what this has to do with Heb 11, Rom 4 and James 2.

See Romans 8:30.

Thanks,
cg99

No, Abraham was justified once in Genesis 12:1-4 in that he had
“initial justification” since justification is a process in quality NOT quantity. We Catholics accept justification as a one time event just not a one time even ONLY since salvation is an ongoing proceess and one is “BEING” justified past, present and future until death.
We couple justification with sanctification you part the two.
We see justification in Abraham as a progressive process which IS what happens in Genesis 12-22.

 

[Bishopite]

I’m sorry that I am not familiar with the alleged Protestant theologian who maintains this teaching. Can you cite a source, so I may verify it for myself? Such a position is not consistent with what I know of Reformed theology. But I could be wrong, maybe you can provide concrete evidence that I am, rather than merely assert it without documented support.

I would agree that Abraham would have to have faith prior to Gen 12, because that faith motivated the obedience to follow God’s direction. And he couldn’t have that faith unless God had given it to him by grace, which in turn means that he was justified by that faith, once and for all time.

Why is this so. Because Romans 8:8 makes it clear that a sinful man cannot please God. Therefore, in order to obey God, thereby pleasing God, Abraham’s sin must have been pardoned, and Abraham thereby justified before God.

The only alternative would be to say that Abraham obeyed God, before he was actually given faith (which justifies the sinner).not?

R.C. Sproul is a Reformed theologian. He writes…

**

RC Sproul, in the book, Faith Alone

** writes, “Paul labors the point that Abraham was not justified by works: Paul declares that Abraham was justified before he performed works. He was justified as soon as he had faith (in Gen. 15)”…

 

[SoonerServant]

I’ve been following the thread for sometime now and I’m not sure you all agree on the meaning of the word “Faith”. You all might want to define the word. A person is not saved by one simple act. Faith are acts motivated by belief. That’s why faith without works is dead.(Faith - works = belief.) visa versa (belief + works = faith) A person is “saved” once they believe, confess, repent and are baptized in water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I think we can all agree on that, correct? So now that we have established what faith is, works through belief, we can see that if someone is saved by faith, then they were saved by their works, which is non-biblical. Faith is simply a fruit of the spirit after one is in the Lord’s grace.

 

[Bishopite]

That is the question: at what moment did Abe have this “saving faith.” Clearly, Heb 11 is neither a treatise, nor an exposition on justification, but a highlighting of the role of faith in the lives of individuals who were central to the saving purposes of God (vv4–31), with particular attention given to Abraham and Sarah (vv8–19) and Moses (vv23–28). Again, the passage is not an exposition on justification, and neither is Gen 12; for an exposition on justification,see Romans 4:1ff.

All due deference, but how are you the arbiter of what is and isn’t a clear teaching on justification in Scripture?
To whom do we go to interpret Scripture?

The reason that Gen 15 is appealed to is that it is a clear statement of the means of justification—faith—and that justification is a “reckoning,” or an imputation

 

[Bishopite]

Originally Posted by cleargospel99
I’m sorry that I am not familiar with the alleged Protestant theologian who maintains this teaching. Can you cite a source, so I may verify it for myself? Such a position is not consistent with what I know of Reformed theology. But I could be wrong, maybe you can provide concrete evidence that I am, rather than merely assert it without documented support.

I reposted this because I forgot to cite the page which is page 166, sorry.

**

RC Sproul, in the book, Faith Alone

writes, “Paul labors the point that Abraham was not justified by works: Paul declares that Abraham was justified before he performed works. He was justified as s**oon as he had faith (in Gen. 15)”… page 166 **
**

 

[Bishopite]

Originally Posted by cleargospel99
I’m sorry that I am not familiar with the alleged Protestant theologian who maintains this teaching. Can you cite a source, so I may verify it for myself? Such a position is not consistent with what I know of Reformed theology. But I could be wrong, maybe you can provide concrete evidence that I am, rather than merely assert it without documented support

Here is another quote from reformed James Buchanan…

“Abraham was a believer, and as such, a justified sinner, many years before Isaac was born: and the first notice of his justification makes mention only of God’s promise, and of Abraham’s faith; for 'he believed in the Lord, and he counted it to him for righteousness (Gen. 15:6).” (Buchanan, p. 244).

 

[Paulus]

Wow, this sounds familiar

My wife was not a practising Christian who began attending a small Baptist Church in her home town.

After several weeks she felt compelled to make her alter call.

Then she came back the next week, and then thought…ok…“I’m saved, now what.”

She returnd to watch the process repeat itself for several weeks and then eventually “backslid” into her old habits.

Her, RCIA, experience had a markedly different effect.

Chuck

Apparently she had not read John’s 1st Epistle 1: 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Then too, being saved is not “The end of the ride either.”

(Should have asked these questions b4 making meself look silly…)

1 - What denomination(or religious upbringing) was your wife b4 your marriage?

2 - Did she receive any instruction at the Baptist church?

I’m not talking about watching folks give their testimonies - some get so wound up w/ testimonies that they forget what’s really important; it’s all about Jesus.

Not knowing anything except what you have mentioned leaves a lot of info out.

 

[Paulus]

actually I always use James 2:24. Usually like this:

me: You know, the concept of faith alone (sola fide) is in the bible! It’s specific about it!

them: Really? Where?

Me: James 2:24. It says: “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

see, it specifically says NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

ML should have read scripture a little more closely when he was translating.

This is really odd – years ago, two young men of the Church of Christ used that very “argument” against me (Wonder how much in line the C-of-C’s are with Roman Catholicism?).

My reply to them & you is that James was not “attacking” faith, he was defending it but his audience was Jews/Jewish Christians whereas Paul was talking to others. James & Paul are defending faith like they have their backs to each other (both of them facing outward) - James instructing Jews while Paul teaching the Gentiles.

 

[JohnMac]

From reading various posts on this thread, it seems to me that many people on both sides of the argument are falling into an either/or argument when it comes to faith & works. The traditional Catholic understanding of both/and is much more helpful. There are many paradoxes within Christianity that an either/or outlook fails resolve. The both/and outlook will often times resolve the paradox.

This needs to be kept in mind when citing scripture as well. Many on both sides have thrown around scripture verses to argue their point of view. It must be kept in mind that scripture must be interpreted within scripture. That is, the conclusion drawn from one verse cannot contradict another verse of scripture. God as the author of all scripture, of course, would not contradict himself.

I think this last point is what the author of this thread was trying to point out. I have yet to read a reply that incorporates all of the verses he cited into one complete answer. If i missed one, please point me to it.

Thanks!

 

[sandusky]

Bishopite:

All due deference, but how are you the arbiter of what is and isn’t a clear teaching on justification in Scripture?

How am I not?

Bishopite:

To whom do we go to interpret Scripture?

Bishopite, how is it that you have come to know that your infallible teachers, so-called, are teaching what’s right if you, yourself, haven’t interpreted the scriptures? :whacky:

Bishopite:

Imputation in a declaritive sense doesn’t actually make one “a new creation” as 2 Cor 5:17 says we become.

Correct; imputation does not make one a new creation; that would be regeneration

Bishopite:

Imputed righteousness doesn’t in actuality eradicate ones sin,

So you believe that infused righteousness eradicates sin? Don’t you also believe that you must confess your sins in the sacrament of reconciliation? :whacky:

Bishopite:

Infused righteousness is like a cup of water the cup being us, the water grace, the more we cooperate the more grace we receive on the inside so that we are actually made holy, not just in a declaritive sense.

I see; righteousness, and grace are some kind of cosmic substance infused into your soul? :whacky:

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

“As Catholics we believe that we are saved by God’s grace alone. We can do nothing, apart from God’s grace, to receive the free gift of salvation. We also believe, however, that we have to respond to God’s grace. Protestants believe that, too. However, many Protestants believe that the only response necessary is an act of faith; whereas, Catholics believe a response of faith and works is necessary…or, as the Bible puts it in Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love.” …faith WORKING through love… just as the Church teaches." - John Martignoni

Ravyn