Faith Alone disrupted in 3 easy steps!

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Catholic_Dude said:
Have you looked at post 109?

You say obedience is a byproduct of faith which is also evidence of justification…however you need to explain to us how Abraham wasnt justified until Gen 15 yet he obeyed since Gen 12 many years earlier.
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CD,
I’ve looked at post 109. I still don’t understand your point.

Who said that Abraham wasn’t justified before Gen 15?

And what does this have to do with Heb 11?

v/r
cg99
 
cleargospel99 said:
CD,
I’ve looked at post 109. I still don’t understand your point.

Who said that Abraham wasn’t justified before Gen 15?

And what does this have to do with Heb 11?

v/r
cg99
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The point they are trying to make is that justifciation is not a once in a lifetime experience. Genesis 15 clearly states that Abraham was justified at that moment. But if he has saving faith in Genesis 12, then he must have been justified at that time as well.

God Bess,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
The point they are trying to make is that justifciation is not a once in a lifetime experience. Genesis 15 clearly states that Abraham was justified at that moment. But if he has saving faith in Genesis 12, then he must have been justified at that time as well.

God Bess,
Michael
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Indeed. I would agree that justification is NOT a “once in a lifetime experience.”

Rather, I would say it is once and for all time.

Here is the Apostle Paul: Romans 4:9-10

"Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!"
 
cleargospel99 said:
Indeed. I would agree that justification is NOT a “once in a lifetime experience.”

Rather, I would say it is once and for all time.

Here is the Apostle Paul: Romans 4:9-10

"Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!"
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So was Abraham justifed “once and for all” in Genesis 12?

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
So was Abraham justifed “once and for all” in Genesis 12?

God Bless,
Michael
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Romans 8:30

“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

Would this not include Abraham?
 
cleargospel99 said:
Romans 8:30

“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

Would this not include Abraham?
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So you believe Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 and justified again in Genesis 15? BTW, are you Calvinist?

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
So you believe Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 and justified again in Genesis 15? BTW, are you Calvinist?

God Bless,
Michael
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What I believe is irrelevent, what the scripture teaches is what matters.

You have asked the same question I asked of Bishopite.

We can avoid repeating ourselves if you go back to

post #39.

Then take a look at #63 and #65.
 
cleargospel99 said:
What I believe is irrelevent, what the scripture teaches is what matters.

You have asked the same question I asked of Bishopite.

We can avoid repeating ourselves if you go back to

post #39.

Then take a look at #63 and #65.
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No what you believe in not irrelevant because we are dealing with the truth here, you cant tell people they are wrong, you cant even tell others about the Gospel IF you think your views are irrelevant. You need to face the facts.

Its a clear and straightforward question, a yes or no will suffice:

Do you believe Abraham was justified in Gen 12?
 
Catholic_Dude said:
No what you believe in not irrelevant because we are dealing with the truth here, you cant tell people they are wrong, you cant even tell others about the Gospel IF you think your views are irrelevant. You need to face the facts.

Its a clear and straightforward question, a yes or no will suffice:

Do you believe Abraham was justified in Gen 12?
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It would appear that he was justified according the the Will of God who ordained all things before creation.

Romans 8:30

“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

Would this not include Abraham?
 
cleargospel99 said:
It would appear that he was justified according the the Will of God who ordained all things before creation.

Romans 8:30

“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

Would this not include Abraham?
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So he was justified before he was even born? :eek:
 
Catholic_Dude said:
So he was justified before he was even born? :eek:
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Indeed,

Why are you shocked?

Did not the same thing happen to Jacob?

Romans 9:10-12

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[a]
 
cleargospel99 said:
It would appear that he was justified according the the Will of God who ordained all things before creation.

Romans 8:30

“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

Would this not include Abraham?
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So Abraham didn’t have free will? He was an automaton?
 
cleargospel99 said:
Indeed,

Why are you shocked?

Did not the same thing happen to Jacob?

Romans 9:10-12

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[a]
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Multiple problems here. First it doesnt say they were justified in that verse, so right there your claim doesnt stand. Second if you claim justification takes place before birth, you make justification during life superfluous. Third, it contradicts your theology because Abraham was then justified twice. Fourth, what your saying is justification is not by faith alone because it is before birth.

Lastly, it is no secret to anyone reading these posts, especially us Catholics, that you are purposely dancing around answering our questions, especially the straightforward:
“Do you believe Abraham was justified in Gen 12?”
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Multiple problems here. First it doesnt say they were justified in that verse, so right there your claim doesnt stand. Second if you claim justification takes place before birth, you make justification during life superfluous. Third, it contradicts your theology because Abraham was then justified twice. Fourth, what your saying is justification is not by faith alone because it is before birth.

Lastly, it is no secret to anyone reading these posts, especially us Catholics, that you are purposely dancing around answering our questions, especially the straightforward:
“Do you believe Abraham was justified in Gen 12?”
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Then maybe I am misunderstanding:

What do you mean that Abraham was justified twice?

Can you show me the verse that says Abraham was** justified**?

I’m still not following what this has to do with Heb 11, Rom 4 and James 2.

See Romans 8:30.

Thanks,
cg99
 
cleargospel99 said:
Bishopite;2137394:
I’m sorry that I am not familiar with the alleged Protestant theologian who maintains this teaching. Can you cite a source, so I may verify it for myself? Such a position is not consistent with what I know of Reformed theology. But I could be wrong, maybe you can provide concrete evidence that I am, rather than merely assert it without documented support.

I would agree that Abraham would have to have faith prior to Gen 12, because that faith motivated the obedience to follow God’s direction. And he couldn’t have that faith unless God had given it to him by grace, which in turn means that he was justified by that faith, once and for all time.

Why is this so. Because Romans 8:8 makes it clear that a sinful man cannot please God. Therefore, in order to obey God, thereby pleasing God, Abraham’s sin must have been pardoned, and Abraham thereby justified before God.

The only alternative would be to say that Abraham obeyed God, before he was actually given faith (which justifies the sinner). This would be a Pelagian error. Would it not?
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There is a moment in time when an elect person must receive the gifts of faith and righteousness, right? When did that happen to Abraham? Genesis 12?

God Bless,
Michael
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Catholic Dude:
First it doesnt say they were justified in that verse, so right there your claim doesnt stand.
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Good point, but will you be consistent, and true to your own argument here? :ehh:
Catholic Dude:
Lastly, it is no secret to anyone reading these posts, especially us Catholics, that you are purposely dancing around answering our questions, especially the straightforward:

“Do you believe Abraham was justified in Gen 12?”
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Let’s see how consistent you are with your argument by using your own words to answer your question: ”it doesn’t say they were justified in that verse, so right there your claim doesn’t stand.”

Scripture doesn’t say Abe was justified in Gen 12, or Heb 11. Will you stand by your argument, or will you dance around it?

Linkowski has it right; Abe, in faith, obeyed in going forth, but he didn’t believe concerning his promised descendants; he had no personal heir; finally, he voiced that concern to the Lord in Gen 15, and, the HS says that it is upon that revelation that Abe believed to justification.

What you are doing is trying to make scripture submit to magisterial teaching; to get to truth, you must reverse that order.
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cleargospel99:
Can you show me the verse that says Abraham was justified?
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Can you, CD?
 
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