Faith Alone disrupted in 3 easy steps!

[cleargospel99]

You’ve got it backwards. God does not abandon you. You abandon the friendship and love of God by sinning.

Your sins are all still offensive to God no matter what you profess. To believe otherwise goes against the teachings of Christ, God and The Holy Spirit. Your actions in the christian life show your true faith.

God grants you the ability to be forgiven thru Christ, But that doesn’t mean that you can live any life you want to and still be saved. Faith is a requirement, but not the only requirement for salvation. You must live a christian life in actions and words for God to recognize your faith as true faith.

You have no disagreement from me that my sins are offensive to God.

Nor do I have any problem with my duty to live for the Kingdom of God, so that through me the Holy Spirit can demonstrate the Love of Christ to the world.

I recognize that I am justified only by the faith God has bestowed by grace and not by any personal righteous act on my part.

However, I am still a lowly sinner meriting nothing but death. Nevertheless, Christ has promised to raise me up, and in that he has given all sinners total assurance by the faith, that comes by HIS grace.

Even though I may abandon God, when I sin, he will not let me go!

 

[dcdurel]

The primary definition of salvation is to be freed from all that oppresses us, especially from sin and the devil.
Jesus said:
“He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,”** Luke 4:14, 17-21). **
Before salvation we are captives to sin, blinded by sin, oppressed by sin. Jesus came to save us from all this.
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin" John 8:34.
“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”
John 8:36

That is why those who loved God were waiting for a savior. They wanted to be freed from the slavery to sin.
This salvation extends to the next life where we will be in union with God in heaven.

We are saved by grace. If our faith alone saves us, then Jesus died for nothing.

Jesus earned the grace to save us by his death and resurrection, suffered out of love for His Father and for us.

We receive this grace that saves us first through faith, then through faith and obedience.

Faith means to believe what God has revealed, because He is God and cannot lie.
Jesus told his apostles to preach the Gospel and he who believes and is baptized will be saved (mark 16:16). The apostles learned the Gospel entirely and directly from Jesus and the Holy Spirit who Jesus sent. They did NOT learn the Gospel by guesswork on scripture verses, as in Protestantism.
Thus, we have to believe the Gospel His Church teaches to be saved.
The teachings that apostles learned from Jesus and handed down is that those who believe Jesus and convert receive the grace of salvation, or sanctifying grace, or justifying grace when they are baptized.
This grace frees us from the inclination to sin to some extent, makes us children of God, thus gives us the right to heaven, turns our hearts toward God and removes all sins, original and all our personal sins. Since these sins oppress us, then this grace takes away these sins and also removes some of the inclination to sin, (concupisence) thus SAVES US FROM OUR SINS.
Remember, the angel said to Joseph, “you shall name him Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins” Matthew 1:21
Thus, when St. Paul says, “for by grace have you been saved through faith, and not by works” he means by grace received at baptism, through faith in the Gospel, because of faith in Jesus, we received the grace that frees us from the inclination to sin and removes all our other sins. Thus we have been saved. “Not by works” actually refers to the ceremonial practices of the Jewish religion, such as circumcision, sabbath observance, etc. But, of course, it can also be extented to mean “not by anything we have done” meaning not by obeying the commandments, etc. because at baptism this grace we receive is a free gift and it is not owed to us.
Now, we receive most of this grace that saves us from the sacraments, first baptism, as I mentioned, but especially the Eucharist. The Church teaches the Eucharist is like a fountain of grace, the other sacraments like rivulets of grace.
Since baptism does not remove all the inclination to sin, we constantly need God’s grace to free us from this inclination to sin and to turn our hearts toward him and away from the things of this world. At mass, we are made present with the sacrifice of Jesus, in which he earned the grace of salvation. Thus, through the eucharistic sacrifice the grace Jesus earned on the cross is made available to us to continually free us from our sins. Thus the Church teaches that the work of salvation (freeing us from our sins, and everything else that oppresses us) is carried on by Jesus at mass. The primary purpose of mass is to give us the grace to continually save us, to free us from our sins, so we can be united with Jesus here and in the next life. So we do go to mass to get something. We go to mass to receive more of the grace of salvation.

 

[dcdurel]

But, even through the Eucharist we don’t receive all the grace that saves us. We must be properly disposed. Thus if we go to mass and don’t pray, and our mind is on other things, we receive very little grace. That is why the Church teaches it is good to pray before and after mass. That is why many parishes pray the rosary before mass.
That is why the Church wants silence after mass, so that we can pray and receive more of the grace obtained through the mass. Jesus is till physically present (bodily present) in us if we received communion, thus we can still ask for more grace.
More of this grace is also made available when we suffer with Jesus. (redemptive suffering). That is why St. Paul wrote, “we will be glorified with him, if only we suffer with him”.
All the practices of the Church are connected with obtaining this grace to free us from our sins
The commandments give us a guide on how to live a life free from the slavery of sin. It does no good to be saved from our sins, if we are going to break the commandments and be slaves again to sin.
When we obey the commandments, we gain an increase in grace that saves us. Thus we are further justified.
That is why James says we are justified by works and “** not by faith alone”.** There is much more about grace and salvation starting at 1987 in the Catechism and in the Roman Catechism.

St. Paul’s writings.
Much of the letters of St. Paul is taken up with the problem of some of the Jews who taught that observance of the mosaic law was still necessary.
Moses received the law from God. It not only had the moral teachings, the ten commandments, which everyone in the world must follow, especially Christians today, but it also had civil laws, to govern the new Isrealite nation, and it had ceremonial laws for how to worship, etc,.
The mosaic law disclosed what was sinful, but since Jesus had not suffered and died the law could not give the grace to keep it. It could not give the grace that frees people from their sins. It could not give the grace of salvation, (santifying grace, justifying grace). In this sense the law could not save them. Thus by observing the law, no one could be freed from their sins, since the law could not give santifying grace. Of course, if they fought sin and died repentant they would not go to hell, in this sense they could be saved from the fires of hell, (but could not enter heaven, but only limbo, since they had not been saved) . If they gave into sin and died unrepentant they would go to hell.
It was only after Jesus came to save us from our sins, that this grace was made available. Through faith in Jesus, we believe His Church whom He sent to proclaim the Gospel. This Gospel teaches us that we receive this grace in baptism. Thus, by grace we have been saved through faith. And after this initial salvation, when we obey Jesus, the law of Christ, (not the law of Moses) then we receive more of this grace that saves us, justifies us.

Now, St. Paul constantly had to deal with the Judiazers, those Jewish Christians who said that faith and obedience to Jesus was not enough. They wanted to go back to the observance of the Mosaic law, especially circumcision and the other ceremonial practices, which were known as “works of the law” or sometimes just “works”.

 

[dcdurel]

To argue against this, St. Paul pointed out that since the law (law of Moses) could not save them, (give them the grace to obey it and to be freed from the slavery to sin) then what was the purpose in going back to the law? He pointed out that they had been saved (freed from the slavery of sin) by faith in Jesus, apart from works of the law (ceremonial works). Thus, why go back to dead works, (ceremonial rituals) that could not give them the grace that saved them. All the law of Moses did was disclose what was sinful. Notice, that none of his arguements were against OBEYING JESUS, which does increase the grace that saves us.

Protestantism:
Luther came up with the idea of salvation by faith alone.
To justify his idea, he took all of Paul’s writings where Paul condemned the idea of the necessity for Christians to follow the Mosaic law, and implied that St. Paul was condemning the idea that OBEYING JESUS was necessary to enter heaven.
Thus, Luther interpreted the word “saved” to mean assurance of going to heaven, instead of “being freed from the slavery of sin”. Luther interpreted the word “works” to mean “obeying Jesus”, instead of what St. Paul meant, which was following the ceremonial rituals of the law of moses, which is NOT OBEYING Jesus. St. Paul taught that those who taught following these laws were teaching that we could earn our salvation, since they were doing something on their own apart from faith in Jesus.

Thus, whan Paul wrote that we are “saved apart from the works of the law”, St. Paul really meant that we are freed from the slavery of sin, apart from circumcision and the other ritural laws of the mosaic law.
Luther interpreted those same works to mean that we are assured of final salvation (going to heaven or saved) apart from obeying Jesus.
This is how he justified his new idea of salvation by faith alone.
Then, all the places where Paul taught that the necessity of following the law of Moses was to be condemned, Luther taught that obeying the commandments with the idea of obtaining eternal salvation was condemned.
In all these posts Protestants constantly try to make equivalent obedience to Jesus through faith by Christians, and following the law of Moses by Christians.
When a Christian believed he had to follow the law of Moses, it was NOT out of faith in Jesus. It was not out of obedience to Jesus. Jesus never taught Christians had to be circumcised, etc. Thus, following the law of Moses by Christians cannot increase the grace of salvation. It cannot further increase our justification. They are dead works for Christians. Christians are not under the law of Moses. They are under the law of Christ. Thus, works of the law of Moses cannot increase our justification.
James speaks of obeying Jesus, because of faith, by Christians. Since they have already been justified at baptism, then obeying Jesus, (good works) can increase our justification. Simple.

Again, Protestantism over and over and over tries to make following the “works of the law” of Moses (not obeying Jesus out of faith) equivalent to the works (obeying Jesus) James speaks of.
**
Christians who have been justified by faith at baptism cannot be further justified by being circumcised and following Jewish feast days. This is exactly what Paul was teaching. Thus, there is no point in making Christians follow the law of Moses.
They can be further justified by obeying Jesus, (keeping the commandments), which both Paul and James teach.

**This is exactly the distinction Luther and many Protestants today use to deliberately confuse innocent Christians.

Everytime a Christian points out the teachings of Jesus, Paul, James and the entire bible which makes it necessary to obey God for salvation, or intend to obey God if we die right after repentance, some Protestant will quote the writings of St. Paul of how “works” are useless. The Protestant is trying to imply that obeying Jesus is the same a following the law of Moses, “works of the law” which is NOT obeying Jesus.

I have seen this deception over and over and over. It never fails to come up by some Protestant whenever a Christian teaches the truth that we need to keep the commandments to enter heaven.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Even though I may abandon God, when I sin, he will not let me go!

You and your free will are providing the separation. The more you sin the bigger the separation. Pride is usually at the root of sin, thinking that “your way” is more important than that of God. Sounds like unbelief, doesn’t it. Thats because in a sense it is. Sin is unbelief.

At what point does a person “in sin” completely separate themselves from God? There is a point were that is evident, right?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

But anyway…does the very first “act” of “faith” lead to justification if there is no object or promise associated with it??? Was Cornelius saved prior to receiving Christ - the Holy Spirit?? It says that he worshipped God and such…

Acts 10:1-4 KJV 1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. …

The object of his faith had not yet come to be until Acts 43…

Acts 10:42-43 KJV … 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:47 KJV 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

What about Lydia??

Acts 16:12-15 KJV …14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized…

She was not saved at the moment she began to seek God by His grace…

This is not quite the same as with Abraham. For years God was speaking directly to Abraham in the OT where as in the NT these people had not heard the Gospel yet (which each context is very clear they werent officially saved until after Baptism).
On top of this, as some Catholics have already pointed out, these New Testament examples of Cornelius actually support the Catholic teaching of the grace that guides people to seek God and do good works BEFORE they are officially saved, Protestantism doesnt believe such a thing is possible until AFTER being saved.

Abraham had no object of his faith or promise at all until Genesis 15:6…

Genesis 15:5-7 KJV 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him,I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Now he has a promise…He has THE GOOD NEWS.

This is simply unBiblical. The plain solid fact is that Abraham was obeying God long before this point, including the same “object of his faith” promises:1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.

• **Gen 12 (HEB 11:8)

**14 The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, “Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you.” 18 So Abram moved his tents and went to live near the great trees of Mamre at Hebron, where he built an altar to the LORD. -**Gen 13
**

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. -Heb 11
Can you honestly say Abraham didnt have true faith prior to Gen 15? It is very clear the SAME promise made in previous chapters which the Bible is clear Abraham had faith in God’s promise. In Gen 13 he even built an altar to God, that was surely by faith!

A person who goes to a church and hears the gospel is not born again until, through their hearing with a repentant heart, receive the gospel by faith and are indwelt with the Holy Spirit…Their going to church did not get them justified, whether it was 3, 4, 5, 6 times that they had went. It is not until the OBJECT of Christ and the PROMISE of eternal life are received.

BUT THATS just IT!!! Abraham DID NOT sit around! He actively obeyed and Heb 11 is clear this was the same faith that ALL the OT Saints had.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

CD,
I’m just asking you to walk me through your argument. As for what Protestants believe and what Catholics believe, is irrelevent for the moment. Let’s approach this as two Christian brothers faithfully reading the scriptures together, for a homework assignment.

I think all those texts, when read in context, support a conclusion that justification is by faith not works. Just show me where my mistake is.
v/rcg99

I dont know how to explain this without mentioning the differences between Protestants and Catholics. The problem occurs both at when Justification happens and what works have to do with it. Catholics believe faith is not a simply the recognition of what Jesus did on the cross for us. Heb 11:6 defines faith, and the Catholics agree: without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. This means our actions play into faith, Paul describes the faith we need in Gal 5:6 “faith working through love”. The works Paul condemns are legalism and strict merit based works/rewards. We can do nothing apart from grace, thus we cannot claim we are owed salvation. However, through grace we can cooperate with God’s Will in which God makes a promise, not a contract, that He will reward those who are faithful to Him.

The protestant mistake is twofold, first it requires only a mere mental recognition of what Jesus did for them, second it sees justification as a legal exchange rather than a supernatural internal change of the soul.

Sola Fide:

God by grace unconditionally regenerates the sinners heart, drawing him irresistably like water from a well into a faith that justifies. Evidence of this faith is repentance and obedience, but the repentance and obedience are a consequence of justification, not the cause.

This position I will defend.

First off, the term “regeneration” must be used as the Bible uses it. St Paul uses the term “regeneration” one time, in Titus 3:5 which is a reference to Baptism. The context is clear this is a purely gracious act.

As for your “repentance and obedience are a consequence of justification”…the problem with that is that your faith is purely passive, its not something you need to exercise but rather a chain reaction which in which you stand on the sidelines and observe.

Further your saying you dont even have to repent to be justified, I consider that unBiblical…but whats really confusing is that it is a “consequence”…why repent for something AFTER you were already forgiven? There are clear passages that show repentance is part of being saved as Peter in Acts 2:38 shows:“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.”

Here is what I understand Rome’s position to be:

It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. **Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will. **

It sounds similar with the exception of the highlighted portion.

Sure, the Catholic position shows that sin can and does harm our relationship with God, in fact if gone unrepented of can lead to Hell (eg Gal 5:19-21)

Now can someone explain to me how Heb 11:8, Rom 4:3, and James 2:24 should cause me to abandom my position for Romes position?

Using YOUR definition above:“Evidence of this faith is repentance and obedience, but the repentance and obedience are a consequence of justification.”
NOW, WHEN was Abraham JUSTIFIED? According to YOUR definition Abraham COULD NOT exercise “repentance and obedience” UNTIL he was justified…You would certainly admit Paul says Abraham was justified from the Gen 15:6 passage…HOWEVER the Bible is very clear of Abraham’s OBEDIENCE long BEFORE the Gen 15 time. THUS your definition is unBiblical because obedience was NOT a consequence of justification.

Do you see now that your position cannot work?

 

[Bishopite]

Abraham had no object of his faith or promise at all until Genesis 15:6…

Genesis 15:5-7 KJV 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Now he has a promise…He has THE GOOD NEWS.

 

[cleargospel99]

The protestant mistake is twofold, first it requires only a mere mental recognition of what Jesus did for them, second it sees justification as a legal exchange rather than a supernatural internal change of the soul.

As for your “repentance and obedience are a consequence of justification”…the problem with that is that your faith is purely passive, its not something you need to exercise but rather a chain reaction which in which you stand on the sidelines and observe.

Do you see now that your position cannot work?

No I simply can’t follow your argument, mainly because you grossly misrepresent my position.

You need to explain to me how a person dead in sin, can self-regenerate or turn to God without being given the gift of faith and thereby justified? Without God’s gracious gift of faith, how does man overcome his natural enmity with God?

God’s Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

It seems clear to me that barring God’s active intervention there is no hope.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

No I simply can’t follow your argument, mainly because you grossly misrepresent my position.

You need to explain to me how a person dead in sin, can self-regenerate or turn to God without being given the gift of faith and thereby justified? Without God’s gracious gift of faith, how does man overcome his natural enmity with God?

I never said a person dead in sin can self regenerate or turn to God without first being given the grace.

How am I misrepresenting you? If Abraham was doing good works from Gen 12 and yet wasnt “justified” until Gen 15, as Protestants claim, then your the one with some explaining to do regarding your claim that obedience is a consequence of justification.

God’s Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

It seems clear to me that barring God’s active intervention there is no hope.

Im not sure what your trying to tell me with this long quote. Both Catholics and Protestants agree God’s intervention is required.

 

[Wisdom]

When James says “faith without works is dead”, he is saying that though you may claim to have faith, it is not evident in your conduct because true faith compels the believer to repent and be obedient to the Word of God.

Read my post again I am actually reciting the words of James your interpolating the words of James to fit your idealogy. When James says "faith without works is dead “he means faith without works is dead” to accentuate the point he says its dead as “the body without a spirit is dead” Works give faith its life and connot exist without it. THis is the context which you dance around and can’t give an answer for. Your trying to say James doesn’t mean what he says which is utter nonsense. No church father ever interpreted James in this bizarre way not even Augustine whom you claim is one of yours. This is novel doctrine of Luther and Calvin that you have not honestly come to grips with as invention.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Read my post again I am actually reciting the words of James your interpolating the words of James to fit your idealogy. When James says "faith without works is dead “he means faith without works is dead” to accentuate the point he says its dead as “the body without a spirit is dead” Works give faith its life and connot exist without it. THis is the context which you dance around and can’t give an answer for. Your trying to say James doesn’t mean what he says which is utter nonsense. No church father ever interpreted James in this bizarre way not even Augustine whom you claim is one of yours. This is novel doctrine of Luther and Calvin that you have not honestly come to grips with as invention.

The protestant claim that the person merely “claims” but doesnt really have “true faith” is twisting the passage. This is very clear considering they dont read and interpret the passage in context.

 

[Randy_Carson]

(continued from post #97)

Please, you believe scripture supports the Marian doctrines, and that only Abraham and Phineas are said to be righteous; how would you know whether or not “alone” is consistent with the spirit of the verses; it is.

Please, you believe that scripture supports the Protestant doctrines of sola fide and sola scriptura.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide scriptures where “faith alone” is used and where the Bible declares itself to be the sole infallible rule of faith for the believer.

Thanks in advance.

 

[guanophore]

a process of justification that procedes follows:

Altercall, response, sinners prayer, believers baptism, return to sin, then I would join you in your criticism. It is called anti-nomianism clearly dealt with in Romans.

It is NOT Sola Fide. It is a works-salvation process that requires action upon the part of the recipient of God’s plan of salvation.

I think this is a thinking error. There is no such thing as salvation by works, so how can there be a ‘works’-based salvation". I think you made that up!

Sola Fide:

God by grace unconditionally regenerates the sinners heart, drawing him irresistably like water from a well into a faith that justifies. Evidence of this faith is repentance and obedience, but the repentance and obedience are a consequence of justification, not the cause.

This position I will defend.

Here is what I understand Rome’s position to be:

It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. **Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will. **

It sounds similar with the exception of the highlighted portion.

Now can someone explain to me how Heb 11:8, Rom 4:3, and James 2:24 should cause me to abandom my position for Romes position?

I don’ t think it is likely that any one but the HS will cause you to abandon your position. Also, since you are steadfast in clinging to what is yours, then it is unlikely that the teaching that was handed down to us by Jesus through his Apostles will have much effect on you at all!

 

[Bishopite]

**

cleargospel99:
Bishopite,
Thank you for getting us back to the topic at hand. On the second point, I think we are on the same page.

On the first: I have another question.

Based on what you described:

How would you characterize Peter’s thrice denial and its affect on his justification?

v/r
cg99**

I will answer your question but I would appreciate it if you would answer the one I posed. What kind of faith did Abraham have in Genesis 12:1-4?

Peter’s first denial of Jesus during His passion doesn’t automatically place Peter outside of being in a state of grace or justification, necessarily, simply because one has to weigh in on the gravity of the sin 1 John 5:16 and John 19:11 “For this reason the one who handed me over to you** has the greater sin.”**
Now, it is possible that Peter was taking himself outside the bounds of grace after his first denial; certainly only God would know the state of Peter’s heart at that point.
It seems that by the second denial Peter had volitionally taken himself outside of being justified and certainly by the third denial one could conclude that he had put his soul in mortal danger. However, what did Peter do that night? He went away that night and repented (seemingly having perfect contrition I would say) and his contrition was confirmed by Jesus in the end and was objectively restored to grace.

 

[Bishopite]

.
You need to explain to me how a person dead in sin, can self-regenerate or turn to God without being given the gift of faith and thereby justified? Without God’s gracious gift of faith, how does man overcome his natural enmity with God?

Self-regenerate? Catholicism doesn’t teach that nor does any Christian group, it is always God giving us the grace first, grace precedes faith as the council of Orange said against pelagianism in 529 A.D in…CANON 20. “That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; **but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.” **

God’s Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

It seems clear to me that barring God’s active intervention there is no hope.

Yes, this series of verses in Romans is speaking of the “natural law” or the reality that when one is created with full faculties (name removed by moderator)art, one has an innate God given knowledge of right and wrong; example Cain knew it was wrong to murder Able before God told him it was sinful. God is always seeking our salvation. Catholicism teaches that everyone is given sufficient grace at birth (which is essentially what Romans 2:15 “They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts” is speaking about)
And if they respond to God’s grace by faith then they are regenerated, but it is God who first gives them the grace.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

From what I can see the evidence still stands, no protestant has directly engaged in what Heb 11:8 is saying and its effect on issues such as faith alone.

 

[cleargospel99]

From what I can see the evidence still stands, no protestant has directly engaged in what Heb 11:8 is saying and its effect on issues such as faith alone.

I looked through my previous posts (82,91,96.100) in order to gain a clearer understanding of where we and what I’ve said.

Here is the link to Heb 11: (in context)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2011&version=31

It seems to be all about faith.

**It’s seems pretty clear that obedience is a byproduct of faith. Not the otherway around.
**
So I’m humbly asking you to help me out. I just don’t understand the specific point you are trying to make regarding Heb 11:8?

v/r
cg99

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I looked through my previous posts (82,91,96.100) in order to gain a clearer understanding of where we and what I’ve said.

Here is the link to Heb 11: (in context)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2011&version=31

It seems to be all about faith.

**It’s seems pretty clear that obedience is a byproduct of faith. Not the otherway around.
**
So I’m humbly asking you to help me out. I just don’t understand the specific point you are trying to make regarding Heb 11:8?
v/r
cg99

Have you looked at post 109?

The Bible defines faith, Heb 11:6 “without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” Faith is a two fold believing in God and obeying Him.

You say obedience is a byproduct of faith which is also evidence of justification…however you need to explain to us how Abraham wasnt justified until Gen 15 yet he obeyed since Gen 12 many years earlier.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Wow, I just came upon the nail that seals the coffin on the Protestant faith alone issue, check out Gal 3:8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”
When was the “gospel in advance” preached to Abraham. Was it Gen 15 where this was said?..nope, it was Gen 12! : 1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 “I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
** and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.**”

And as Heb 11:8 is clear, Abraham had the same “righteousness that comes by faith” as Noah did, and Abraham had this in Genesis 12:7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. 8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. -Heb 11
If there was ever a silver bullet here it is!

Im just a messenger here, it was other Catholics who pointed this out to me…anyway…we have done it fellow Catholics!

The time is at hand for Protestants to reunite with Holy Mother Church!

I truly believe we are in the generation where Protestantism will virtually disappear now that the truth is out and people can see for themselves!