Faith Alone disrupted in 3 easy steps!

[Linkowski]

Hmmm…still no discussion on Hebrews 11:8?

Just wondering:twocents:

Wishful thinking…you needed to look at the previous page

I like my reposting above but I want to get with you about your Abraham scenario. It seems you are all stuck on this Abrahamic illustration…BUT…you need to look at all of the other teachings on justification in the New Testament - I have given a very good posting on the whole matter…this is comprehensive enough to show…

But anyway…does the very first “act” of “faith” lead to justification if there is no promise associated with it??? Was Cornelius saved prior to receiving Christ - the Holy Spirit?? It says that he worshipped God and such…

Acts 10:1-4 KJV 1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

The proper object of his faith had not yet come to be until Acts 43…

Acts 10:42-43 KJV 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Then…

Acts 10:44 KJV 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Then…

Acts 10:47 KJV 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

What about Lydia??

Acts 16:12-15 KJV 12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. 13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

She was not saved at the moment she began to seek God by His grace…

Abraham had no object of his faith or promise at all until Genesis 15:6…

Genesis 15:5-7 KJV 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Now he has a promise…He has THE GOOD NEWS.

A person who goes to a church and hears the gospel is not born again until, through their hearing with a repentant heart, receive the gospel by faith and are indwelt with the Holy Spirit…Their going to church did not get them justified, whether it was 3, 4, 5, 6 times that they had went. It is not until the OBJECT of Christ and the PROMISE of eternal life are received.

By the way…Gen 12 is very much in line with repentance…

Repentance is turning from sin as slavemaster to Christ as Lord…Disciple…Follow Me!!

It is not until one makes God…“God”…when the gospel can penetrate their heart…

Luke 8:15 KJV 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Luke 8:18 KJV 18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

May God Show Us…

 

[cleargospel99]

First off, “Step One” is in fact Heb 11:8.

The point I am making is not that any part of Romans is being invalidated, rather the Protestant interpretation cannot stand upon examining the other facts of Abraham’s life.

Protestants believe that upon having faith in God the Christian is justified then and there, not to be repeated. They believe justification is a legal transaction where God no longer considers your sin but instead judges you according to what Jesus did on the cross. The famous analogy, some say Martin Luther came up with it, is as follows: The sinner is like a pile of dung, Jesus is like pure snow, upon justification the snow covers the dung so all God the Father “sees” is the snow and from that considers the sinner “justified”…Catholics reject this view and consider it grave error. Catholics believe justification entails God’s grace (through the merits of Christ on the cross) being infused into the sinner making his soul pure and so when God looks at the sinner He sees something that is a reality, the sinner is no longer a sinner but a new creation and an adopted child of God.

NOW, if Protestants say Rom 4 is when Abraham was justified by faith alone according to the reference to Gen 15 then we have to ask: What about Heb 11:8 where Abraham had faith as far back as Gen 12?

I hope this is clear and I have a good feeling most protestants reading this can at least understand the main idea of my challenge.

CD,

Maybe I’m just too simple. But I read Romans 4, Hebrews 11 and James 2. I also read the chapters surrounding them, to try to capture the context attempting to ensure that I was listening carefully to the word of God.

I’m just asking you to walk me through your argument. As for what Protestants believe and what Catholics believe, is irrelevent for the moment. Let’s approach this as two Christian brothers faithfully reading the scriptures together, for a homework assignment.

I think all those texts, when read in context, support a conclusion that justification is by faith not works. Just show me where my mistake is.

v/r
cg99

 

[Randy_Carson]

May God Show Us…

He did. In His Word.

The Justifications of Abraham

First Justification – Going to a Foreign Land

1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” 4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. (Genesis 12:1-4)

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. (Hebrews 11:8-9)

In the book of Hebrews, Paul makes it clear that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 since he is specifically commending the true faith of all the OT “heroes” listed. Given the fact that Abraham’s departure from his homeland would have been a “public” event, I’ll grant that this was “before men”.

However, this seems to create a problem for the evangelical position because if Abraham was justified by demonstrating his faith before men back in Genesis 12, how could he also be justified a decade later when he was also justified by faith in Genesis 15:6?

Second Justification – Believing God

5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6)

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:1-3)

6 Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Galatians 3:6)

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:22-24)

Both Paul and James clearly declare that Abraham was justified when he believed God. No men were present to witness the moment when Abraham counted the stars - the event was a private moment between Abraham and God.

Third Justification – Sacrificing Isaac

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. 12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” (Genesis 22:9-12)

49 Now the days drew near for Mattathias to die, and he said to his sons: "Arrogance and reproach have now become strong; it is a time of ruin and furious anger. 50 Now, my children, show zeal for the law, and give your lives for the covenant of our fathers. 51 Remember the deeds of the fathers, which they did in their generations; and receive great honor and an everlasting name. 52 Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness?” (1 Maccabees 2:49-52)

20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. (James 2:20-22)

Abraham was justified (considered righteous) a third time in the sacrifice of Isaac, and this is referenced in both Maccabees and James. Again, no men were present to witness the event (unless you want to count Isaac) - the event was a private moment between Abraham and God.

These three moments in the life of Abraham indicate that justification is not a once-for-all event, but a process that occurs and increases justification throughout the life of the believer.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

By the way, since Catholics do not rigidly separate justification and sanctification the way non-Catholics do, it is understandable why we view Abraham’s life experiences as growth in justification/sanctification.

Genesis 12, 15 & 22 were moments when Abraham became more justified.

Only under Protestant soteriology would there be a problem with three separate “justifications”. This is why one hears objections like, “Abraham was justified, then he wasn’t, then he was, then he wasn’t, then he was.” Non-Catholics argue that this sounds absurd. We agree.

We don’t say that Abraham lost his justification then got it again, etc. - although we could argue that mortal sin has that effect on the soul. Instead, we would say that Abraham was justified, then more justified, then still more justified.

For you, it’s an event; for us, it’s a process. Scripture supports the latter view.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Harsalter]

After several weeks she felt compelled to make her alter call.

Then she came back the next week, and then thought…ok…“I’m saved, now what.”
Chuck

That protestant walk down the aisle and that word, “saved” they throw around like rice at a wedding, will send many to hell.

Their ‘faith alone’ farce and ‘once saved always saved’ myth, drove me batty even as a child. My dad was a baptist preacher and I heard every sermon of his several times. For one to think they can never fall out of grace is either arrogance, or at the very least, very hopeful wishful thinking.

It sure is nice to find the complete faith and be home with the RCC.

 

[Linkowski]

I would first like to point out, that just because there are different points of time in the life of Abraham that we see his faith being illustrated does not mean that he was justified at each of those points in his lifetime (Romans 4, Galatians 3, and James 2). We are simply being taught over and over that Abraham’s faith was the means of his justification…it was also the root of his works…he believed God…therefore, he acted.

I would also like to point out that justification, as important as a doctrine this is, was not shown as a process in the Old Testament with respect to Abraham…the only mention is in Genesis 15:6…when it says - Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness…it makes this statement nowhere else in the life of Abraham.

In the book of Romans, justification is clearly a declaration of one to be legally righteous…it is contrasted and used together with condemnation which is not a process. These are one-time declarations. Hence we have “justified” in the past tense…

Romans 5:1 NAS95 1 Therefore, **having been **justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9 NAS95 9 Much more then, **having now been justified **by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Romans 6:7 NAS95 7 for he who **has died **is freed from sin.

1 Corinthians 6:11 NAS95 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you **were justified **in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

We are dead to the law…it no longer has jurisdiction over us…

Romans 7:1-6 NAS95 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The law has no more jurisdiction over the elect because they are in Christ…sin is not imputed to us…we are no longer “in our sins” (ref.1Cor 15:17). We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous (1John 2:1). We have eternal life (James 5:24)

Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now **no condemnation **for those who are in Christ Jesus.

WHY - because we are justified!

Please notice also the terms used in Romans to show that this is speaking of a legal declaration…

Charge - (Rom 8:33), condemned (Rom 8:34), jurisdiction (Rom 7:1), Guilty (Rom 3:19), justified (many places), law (many places), imputation…etc.

This is the context of Romans…

Once justified by faith and now haveing the Holy Spirit among many other claims that blood-washed, born again believers may propound…Now we are changed - God changes us just like he brought the dead to life…gave sight to the blind, gave hearing to the deaf…etc…only from a spirtual standpoint.

2 Corinthians 5:17 NAS95 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

(cont’d)

 

[Linkowski]

(cont’d)

The process of Sanctification where one is made holy and conformed to the image of Christ then begins by the Word and by the Spirit of God.

I believe that the Catholic Church seeks to make justification a process because they believe that you can become unsaved. Well…the elect WILL be saved…they will be glorified…

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

And it is only the elect that will have salvation. There are no justified non-elect. These three groups are not apparent in scripture…only two - the ones on whom He has mercy and the ones whom He passes over and are subsequently hardened. Once the elect are justified - they will be glorified - they will be saved. And the elect cannot and will not fall away.

You are using a very small portion of James 2 to defend your point whereas I have a very large portion to defend my point in this case…

James 2:14-24 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone **says he has faith **but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Can this **KIND of faith **save him???

15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Again…we are saved by living faith - faith that works…NOT FAITH AND WORKS

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; ***show me your faith ***without the works, and I will ***show you my faith ***by my works.”

We are speaking here only of the exhibition of faith - the characteristics of the faith…and so it continues…

***19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. ***

What ***KIND ***of faith is this - about as good as demonic faith!

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

It produces the godly fruit for which it was designed (Eph. 2:10). Just as a fruit tree has not fulfilled its goal until it bears fruit, so also faith has not reached its end until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works.

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Of course…in this sense…you are not justified by faith alone. Faith that is alone is DEAD faith…this is the sense in which he is driving at.The whole passage is about the nature of the faith and this is quite apparent. This word justified is also not being used in the same sense as is in Romans…and clearly is being shown in the sense that is indicated in the bold print below…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

What do we see over and over - show me…a man may say…James was against those empty tares in the Church who evidenced that they were not of the fold.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I would first like to point out, that just because there are different points of time in the life of Abraham that we see his faith being illustrated does not mean that he was justified at each of those points in his lifetime (Romans 4, Galatians 3, and James 2). We are simply being taught over and over that Abraham’s faith was the means of his justification…it was also the root of his works…he believed God…therefore, he acted.

I would also like to point out that justification, as important as a doctrine this is, was not shown as a process in the Old Testament with respect to Abraham…the only mention is in Genesis 15:6…when it says - Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness…it makes this statement nowhere else in the life of Abraham.

Wrong on both points.

Protestants insist that Abraham was first justified in Genesis 15 and then they scramble to downplay Genesis 22.

However, they overlook the fact that Abraham was actually first justified in Genesis 12. This should be obvious from the the fact that the moment is listed in the “roll call” of righteousness found in Hebrews 11.

See posts #83 & #84.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Church_Militant]

Wrong on both points.

Protestants insist that Abraham was first justified in Genesis 15 and then they scramble to downplay Genesis 22.

However, they overlook the fact that Abraham was actually first justified in Genesis 12. This should be obvious from the the fact that the moment is listed in the “roll call” of righteousness found in Hebrews 11.

See posts #83 & #84.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

To Randy Wan Kenobi you must listen yes, yes…http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/img/movie_sm.jpg

 

[Linkowski]

Wrong on both points.

Protestants insist that Abraham was first justified in Genesis 15 and then they scramble to downplay Genesis 22.

However, they overlook the fact that Abraham was actually first justified in Genesis 12. This should be obvious from the the fact that the moment is listed in the “roll call” of righteousness found in Hebrews 11.

See posts #83 & #84.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Look at post 81 please.

 

[cleargospel99]

If you are critical of a process of justification that procedes follows:
Altercall, response, sinners prayer, believers baptism, return to sin, then I would join you in your criticism. It is called anti-nomianism clearly dealt with in Romans.

It is NOT Sola Fide. It is a works-salvation process that requires action upon the part of the recipient of God’s plan of salvation.

Sola Fide:

God by grace unconditionally regenerates the sinners heart, drawing him irresistably like water from a well into a faith that justifies. Evidence of this faith is repentance and obedience, but the repentance and obedience are a consequence of justification, not the cause.

This position I will defend.

Here is what I understand Rome’s position to be:

It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. **Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will. **

It sounds similar with the exception of the highlighted portion.

Now can someone explain to me how Heb 11:8, Rom 4:3, and James 2:24 should cause me to abandom my position for Romes position?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Look at post 81 please.

Okay, I’ve read it three times. What am I missing?

You mentioned Gen 12, but not in terms of justification…you see it in terms of repentance, am I right?

Sorry if I’m slow on the uptake, but I was off-line for two days and trying to get back up to speed.

1 The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” 4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. (Genesis 12:1-4)

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. (Hebrews 11:8-9)

By faith - verse 8…by faith - verse 9…and it was a good faith because Hebrews 11 is extolling the “great cloud of witnesses”.

Abraham believed by faith and obeyed by going.

You say he has The Good News in Genesis 15? He has a promise, but He does not have the Gospel, the good news.

I must completely out of sync…

 

[Bishopite]

Romans 3:23

for ***all have sinned…***Without exception—even the bvm—yes?

Even little babies?
**And does all always mean every person? **

Habakkuk 2:4

 

[Bishopite]

Wishful thinking…you needed to look at the previous page

I like my reposting above but I want to get with you about your Abraham scenario. It seems you are all stuck on this Abrahamic illustration…BUT…you need to look at all of the other teachings on justification in the New Testament - I have given a very good posting on the whole matter…this is comprehensive enough to show…

But anyway…does the very first “act” of “faith” lead to justification if there is no promise associated with it??? Was Cornelius saved prior to receiving Christ - the Holy Spirit?? It says that he worshipped God and such…

Acts 10:1-4 KJV 1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

 

[Wisdom]

(cont’d)

What do we see over and over - show me…a man may say…James was against those empty tares in the Church who evidenced that they were not of the fold.

Well that’s part of it lip service let’s say the sinner’s prayer is not going to guarantee you salvation contrary to some Evangelicals soteriology. But there is a lot more to that going on here that your ignoring.

Works are not only evidence after the fact rather they are joined with and cooperating with an active faith. James 2:22 We see here faith was made perfect and completed by works. Works are not mere evidence in James 2:26 but the very spirit that give faith its life. Without works your faith is dead just as the spirit is more than just mere evidence that you are alive it is an essential component for the body to be alive.

James 2 (Rheims)
22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

Bottom line faith cannot save without good works here not merely some commentary on evidence of faith. As St Augustine says "St James, moreover is so opposed to those who think that faith can save without good works that he comapres them to devils. (Faith and Works 14)

If faith is merely evidence than why is the point made that a man cannot be saved by faith without works? It is not rendered evidence here but a dead faith that kills as a body without a spirit kills. Your spiritually dead without works not just lacking some emprical evidence for your justification.

Your failure to adress these points indicate the usual protestant tap dance.

 

[crocetta]

There is a website about House of Virgin Mary where also Popes have made pilgramige. I highly recommend you.
www.traveltofaith.com

 

[cleargospel99]

1. God by grace bestows the gift of faith, and in so doing justifies the believer.
2. The believer could not be the believer had God not granted him faith, freely and unconditionally.
3. The free gift of faith causes repentance and obedience, for repentance and obedience is not possible without faith.

Now for the believer, the spiritual growth wrought from repentance and obedience does strengthen ones faith, just as God blesses people who are faithfully married for a long time.

**However, repentance and obedience are NOT the cause of the faith that justifies. **

Once God has given to you faith, the fruits of that gift being repentance and obedience, you are justified once and for all time, for he has promised that His Will cannot be thwarted (Job 42: 1-2).

When James says “faith without works is dead”, he is saying that though you may claim to have faith, it is not evident in your conduct because true faith compels the believer to repent and be obedient to the Word of God.

As I’ve matured in my walk with the Lord, my awareness of my own sinful nature has increased.

My basic human nature has not changed, only my awareness has increased of my need for God’s grace in order to be conformed to His Will.

I sin constantly, daily, by the moment grave and mortal in character, I get angry, and I procrastinate, and fail to do those things I ought, and I do things I shouldn’t. God corrects me and chastises me, but at no time does my status of being justified by the blood of Christ abandon me.

 

[sandusky]

Montgomeryatty:

Touche Sandusky! Very nice comeback! But . . . what you have here, as I noted in my comment addressed to Linkowski, is a shaky theological position being staked out as interpreting a more solid position.

The definition of pas is determined by the context in which it is used. Pas means either all without exception, or all without distinction. In v1, Paul asks for prayers for all men; he then defines all men in this way: kings, and all who are in authority. IOW, kinds, or classes of men.

Paul speaks this way in other places as well; for example, Titus 2, he talks of older men, older women, younger women, younger men, bondslaves, and rulers and authorities in 3:1. In 2:11, he says the grace of God brings salvation to all men. He certainly does not mean that every older man, every older woman, every younger woman, every younger man, every bondslave, every ruler, and every authority is saved by God’s grace, but different “kinds” of men, in the generic sense.

So, “all” in 1 Tim 2:4 is “all without distinction.”

Montgomeryatty:

Between God’s desire for all men to come to a repentance and the Calvinist position, the former is sturdy and the latter is less so, and should be interpreted in that light.

First of all, the passage is not saying that God desires to save all men, but that He desires all men to be saved. The latter is consistent with the rest of scripture (cf Eze 18:23, 32; Jn 3:17 etc.), and with the Calvinist position, while the former is not.

Furthermore, the next clause says, “*and * [the sinner] to come to the truth.” Jesus is very clear that, apart from the working of God, no one has the ability to come to truth, which is Him (Jn 6:44). The Father gives to Christ those who will come to Christ, and they are the only ones for whom Christ prays; He does not pray for just anyone—“the world”—but only for those the Father has given to Him (Jn 17). Those the Father gives, the Father also draws—literally ”drags”, in the Greek—to Christ, because, again, no one has the ability to come on his own. That is the reason some disciples left Jesus (cf Jn 6:65ff).

Again, the Calvinist position is consistent with scripture.

According to scripture, the condition, and disposition of man is such that, if God did not elect some, then none would be saved. Jesus says of the unregenerate that they are slaves of sin, and Paul says that they are spiritually dead, and by nature children of wrath, and that they are do not have the ability to please God (Eph 2:3, 5; cf Rom 8:6-8). Your infallible teachers, so-called, say that man is merely wounded; IOW, they contradict God’s revelation of man’s post-fall problem.

That wrong understanding of man’s condition is one of the reasons for all of the problems within your theology; again, the Calvinist position is consistent with scripture.

Montgomeryatty:

Stepping into the debate you’re opening up, the sturdier theological principle is that Jesus never sin, infants lack the capacity to sin, etc. The shakier assertion is that the BVM sinned, because it is necessarily an inference made based upon general human nature, not upon anything found within Scripture.

Jesus is the exception (Heb 4:15). Infants are not excepted (Job 14:4; 15:14; Ps 51:5; 58:3; Is 48:8).

Your statement concerning Mary shows how easily sinners are lead astray. The testimony of God demands that Mary be included in the “all” of Rom 3:23. One must go outside of God’s testimony to confabulate the Marian doctrines, and it is the same with all of the battles of the church; namely, the testimony is set aside, and the imagination rules; nevertheless, your church does this with Mary.

Your infallible leaders, so-called, themselves state, concerning Mary’s sinlessness, that it is “not necessary,” IOW, there is no scriptural basis for the claim, but that it is “fitting” that God should do so.

Montgomeryatty:

Also, as I noted to Linkowski, in the context of a Bible-only debate, this is a “what’s more fundemental” debate, and ultimately requires an infallible authority that can render judgment on what precisely is more fundamental. Like, maybe, a Church.

That’s a strawman; sola scriptura recognizes the authority of the church, and of those God has given who are gifted with teaching.

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #97)

Montgomeryatty:

Define whether being “righteous” as stated in these verses constitutes being “saved once and for all.” Reconcile this with only Abraham and Phineas being the only individuals who were stated to be righteous. Then define “faith,” taking into account Jesus’s/Paul’s/Peter’s instructions asking followers of Christ to do specific acts in order to inherit eternal life. Once you’ve done all of that, I’ll tell you whether your use of the word “alone” in the context of your use of the word “righteous” and “faith” is consistent with the spirit of the verses.

Please, you believe scripture supports the Marian doctrines, and that only Abraham and Phineas are said to be righteous; how would you know whether or not “alone” is consistent with the spirit of the verses; it is.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

1. God by grace bestows the gift of faith, and in so doing justifies the believer.
2. The believer could not be the believer had God not granted him faith, freely and unconditionally.
3. The free gift of faith causes repentance and obedience, for repentance and obedience is not possible without faith.

Now for the believer, the spiritual growth wrought from repentance and obedience does strengthen ones faith, just as God blesses people who are faithfully married for a long time.

**However, repentance and obedience are NOT the cause of the faith that justifies. **

Once God has given to you faith, the fruits of that gift being repentance and obedience, you are justified once and for all time, for he has promised that His Will cannot be thwarted (Job 42: 1-2).

When James says “faith without works is dead”, he is saying that though you may claim to have faith, it is not evident in your conduct because true faith compels the believer to repent and be obedient to the Word of God.

As I’ve matured in my walk with the Lord, my awareness of my own sinful nature has increased.

My basic human nature has not changed, only my awareness has increased of my need for God’s grace in order to be conformed to His Will.

I sin constantly, daily, by the moment grave and mortal in character, I get angry, and I procrastinate, and fail to do those things I ought, and I do things I shouldn’t. God corrects me and chastises me, but at no time does my status of being justified by the blood of Christ abandon me.

You’ve got it backwards. God does not abandon you. You abandon the friendship and love of God by sinning.

Your sins are all still offensive to God no matter what you profess. To believe otherwise goes against the teachings of Christ, God and The Holy Spirit. Your actions in the christian life show your true faith.

God grants you the ability to be forgiven thru Christ, But that doesn’t mean that you can live any life you want to and still be saved. Faith is a requirement, but not the only requirement for salvation. You must live a christian life in actions and words for God to recognize your faith as true faith.