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mikeledes
Guest
Can a person receive the gift of faith and remain unjustified?
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless,
Michael
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cleargospel99
Guest
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mikeledes
Guest
Abraham had faith in Genesis 12 and faith is a gift of God. Was he unjustified at that point?
God Bless,
Michael
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cleargospel99
Guest
Here is Gen 12:1-4
1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you.
2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran.
Here’s what I notice in this passage. He doesn’t say, if you leave your country, I will do these things for you. He just tells him to leave.
No quibbling or negotiation.
(Compare this to Abraham in Gen 18:16-33)
Notice also that the promises and blessings are NOT conditional (if you, then I). Success is pre-ordained.
Abraham is not perfectly obedient either before or after Gen 15,
Note: Gen 12 Sarai and the Pharoah in Egypt
Note: Gen 16 Haggar and Ishmael
In order for Abraham to be able to obey the Lord, scripture teaches us that he must have the had the faith that justifies from the very beginning. (Whether Abraham was consciously aware of this is another matter entirely.)
Despite Abraham’s personal shortcomings God sustained him in that faith, confirming that justification is a “once and for all time process.”
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mikeledes
Guest
At what precise point was Abraham justified? At what point did he actually go from unrigteous to righteous, transferred from death into life? Did this happen prior to Genesis 12?
God Bless,
Michael
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cleargospel99
Guest
I don’t know. Do you?
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mikeledes
Guest
Well, that’s more than what most Protestants will admit. Thank you for your honesty. Do you believe that Abraham was already justified in Genesis 12? That he was already tranferred from ungodliness to righteousness, from death into life?
God Bless,
Michael
P.S. I have to go. I will not be online Wednesday, but I will be more than happy to respond to any questions asap. May God richly bless you.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
The fundamental problem here is that your understanding of justification is incorrect. Justification is not a legal decree by God where he turns His focus from you to Jesus. Justification is a recognition of the reality of righteousness indwelling in the soul of a Christian. Through the merits of Jesus, God changed you from a sinner to a new creation and adopted you, as you abide by His teachings you can grow in righteousness/justification.
One example I use is that though one might consider them self well versed in Scripture, despite how much of the Bible you learn you can always continue to learn and grow in knowledge and love of God.
How about this, you provide us a link of what you consider to be correct Reformed teaching (then I wont have to guess) and I bet I can find them saying Abraham was justified once and that it was at Gen 15:6.
So what your saying is that Abraham was justified before Gen 15:6?
Yes, you are being consistent at this point. Now all you have to admit is that Abraham was justified before Gen 15:6.
I am being consistent in showing that he HAD to have been justified. First he had faith in God in Gen 12-14, that is undeniable. The protestant must now answer how he had faith in God and was pleasing to God yet was not justified. To back that up we have places like Heb 11 showing he had the same saving faith the other OT Saints had. To drive the nail in the coffin places like Gal 3:8 (also Gal 3:16 → Gen 12:7) are talking about justification and the Gospel, YET it is quoting Gen 12:3 (which we have proven Abraham had faith here).
As for Linkowski, dont forget he still has not responded to my last post which I believe clearly demonstrated he was wrong in his assumptions.
MY QUESTION exactly!
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guanophore
Guest
Faith is a characteristic of being human that is part of our makeup at creation. Salvation (justification ) can only occur when our faith is mixed with God’s grace. For this to be effective, the most important work of God must be done by the individual.
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cleargospel99
Guest
I can only go by what the bible says, anything else would be mere speculation.
It seems evident to me, and I’ve already stated to that effect that Abraham was called by God in Gen 12 and was thereby justified just as Paul teaches in Romans 8:30.
My personal views are entirely irrelevant. Maybe its the scientist mind, or the influence of Ayn Rand, but objective reality “is what it is” regardless of my opinion or personal feeling.
I try to take all the evidence in context and see where it leads, rather than leap to a speculative conclusion on this or that “spoof text.”
I am no theologian, just a follower of Jesus, with a desire to understand and to know Him.
v/r
cg99
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cleargospel99
Guest
I still don’t see your point, or how any of this contradicts Sola Fide. Even you seem to acknowledge that the OT does indeed teach that Abraham was justified by faith, not by works.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
What is being illustrated is that justification is a process - not an event.
This is a Catholic concept.
Hope this helps. :tiphat:
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cleargospel99
Guest
Would it be unfair for me to point out that this thread promised to disrupt Sola Fide in “3 easy steps”?
Here we are mucking about in Genesis, nowhere near the three spoof texts provided by CD.
Are we any closer to understanding his point?
Just walk us through it one step at a time.
Here we are mucking about in Genesis, nowhere near the three spoof texts provided by CD.
Are we any closer to understanding his point?
Just walk us through it one step at a time.
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cleargospel99
Guest
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cleargospel99
Guest
Is that Catholic?
I always thought that scripture teaches that the most important work was done by Christ on the cross. Do you disagree?
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Salvation is a process AND it is NOT by faith alone, both of these concepts contradict the protestant Faith Alone theology.
Abraham being justified in Gen 12 helps demonstrate Catholicism is right in both of those concepts, and thus Faith Alone theology is unBiblical.
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cleargospel99
Guest
You are good at making declaration but a little weak on providing evidence to support your claims.
To borrow a phrase I learned from the Army, “Show us what right looks like.”
Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.
v/r
cg99
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
This is post 156, I have spent multiple posts trying to explain to you, trying to get you to answer questions, trying to get you to stay consistent. To now accuse me of presenting a weak case is nothing short of brushing off the evidence rather than confront and consider it.
I asked you for an official reformed creed or theologian that you trust so I can further explain myself and you have not provided one. If I have been “wrong” this whole time, its your turn to point me to a web page, article, creed/confession, theologian, etc that you consider orthodox so I dont have to guess and worse yet be accused of misrepresenting you. This request should be simple enough.
…the ball is in your court…
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sandusky
Guest
Catholic Dude:
You’re inconsistent in your argument, in that, against CG99’s argument, you said that the verses he offered said nothing about justification; neither do the verses you offer say anything about justification, but obedience, and faith, with which no one has disagreed; but you have still not proven justification in the verses you offer.
Catholic Dude:
Catholic Dude:
With respect to Abe, both Paul and James cite one passage with respect to Abe’s justification, and that passage is different from the passages that you cite.
Catholic Dude:
Methinks you grabbed this 3 easy steps argument from somewhere, and didn’t give it much thought before posting it; it seems it ain’t so easy.
The only thing you are doing consistently is asserting a claim, and claiming the assertion is true.
You’re inconsistent in your argument, in that, against CG99’s argument, you said that the verses he offered said nothing about justification; neither do the verses you offer say anything about justification, but obedience, and faith, with which no one has disagreed; but you have still not proven justification in the verses you offer.
Catholic Dude:
You started the thread; why do I have answer anything? All I’ve asserted on this thread is that you continually assert your position, and claim it to be true; anybody can do that.
Catholic Dude:
The verses you cite stated Abe had faith, and was obedient, and you assert from that that he was also justified; I’m waiting for you to make that case; not just assert that it is so, but support your assertion.
With respect to Abe, both Paul and James cite one passage with respect to Abe’s justification, and that passage is different from the passages that you cite.
Catholic Dude:
What??? I have to help you make your case; you go find the reformed creeds and theologians you disagree with.
Methinks you grabbed this 3 easy steps argument from somewhere, and didn’t give it much thought before posting it; it seems it ain’t so easy.
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adamdesmond
Guest
Sorry, I haven’t read the whole thread, just the first page, and I’m curious about something…what is the purpose of salvation for Catholics?
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