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JustaServant
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No.
Why do you keep calling it a “set of rules”?
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Why do you keep calling it a “set of rules”?
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PRmerger
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Of course you should follow the rules. Just like a husband and wife should follow the rules to each other.
I hope you are seeing this.
Again, if Jesus came to you and said, “I want you to pray to my mother, asking for her intercession” would you be cheeky enough to tell him, “No, Jesus. I disagree with your command to do this”?
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steved12345
Guest
I follow Jesus to have a relationship with God - and I follow the catholic church rules because I deep down want to do what is right in the eyes of Christ… and if my feelings are wrong about not believing some of the catholic rules (that I still follow), I realize I may be wrong and do not want to offend Jesus - thus I follow the rules. (despite maybe not believing all of them). I was raised catholic my whole life.
is this making sense … That post you read was from 2006 when I asked Christ to come into my life and help me with my addiction (which he has as I have been sobered since)… I also started following the catholic church and started to learn and study it since 2006. and I do get alot out of the church. But as you can see, I am torn… my only question is can I have some doubts still - and be a member of the church in good standing with God if I follow the rules. I am not looking to trap anyone… it is just no one is answering this question for me… or do my doubts require me to leave the church (which I do not want to do - but I would be a hypocrit to say that I would just then change my feelings on certain issues… .but I continue to pray on it and read on it… and post here on it as I am seeking guidance to this question - that no one is answering)
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PRmerger
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Interesting.
When were you baptized a Catholic, steve? And where did you receive your catechesis?
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steved12345
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I follow Jesus to have a relationship with God - and I follow the catholic church rules because I deep down want to do what is right in the eyes of Christ… and if my feelings are wrong about not believing some of the catholic rules (that I still follow), I realize I may be wrong and do not want to offend Jesus - thus I follow the rules. (despite maybe not believing all of them). I was raised catholic my whole life. did all of the sacrements, attend all masses now that is required. I even helped my daughters boyfriend come into the catholic faith this past Easter. So I am not a hater of the catholic faith.
is this making sense … That post you read was from 2006 when I asked Christ to come into my life and help me with my addiction (which he has as I have been sobered since)… I also started following the catholic church and started to learn and study it since 2006. and I do get alot out of the church. But as you can see, I am torn… my only question is can I have some doubts still - and be a member of the church in good standing with God if I follow the rules. I am not looking to trap anyone… it is just no one is answering this question for me… or do my doubts require me to leave the church (which I do not want to do - but I would be a hypocrit to say that I would just then change my feelings on certain issues… .but I continue to pray on it and read on it… and post here on it as I am seeking guidance to this question - that no one is answering)
is this making sense … That post you read was from 2006 when I asked Christ to come into my life and help me with my addiction (which he has as I have been sobered since)… I also started following the catholic church and started to learn and study it since 2006. and I do get alot out of the church. But as you can see, I am torn… my only question is can I have some doubts still - and be a member of the church in good standing with God if I follow the rules. I am not looking to trap anyone… it is just no one is answering this question for me… or do my doubts require me to leave the church (which I do not want to do - but I would be a hypocrit to say that I would just then change my feelings on certain issues… .but I continue to pray on it and read on it… and post here on it as I am seeking guidance to this question - that no one is answering)
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PRmerger
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Obstinate doubt: yes–you should be very, very troubled if you have this model.
Difficulties and questions? no problem at all. Study and learn.
As Cardinal Newman said, “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer.”
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JustaServant
Guest
You’re asking us should you leave the Catholic Church?
No, you should not.
You say you do not agree with (I would say understand) “the rules”?
That takes time. Sorry, but there is no magic online, instant word that will make you understand. I know that doesn’t bode well in our “instant”, high tech world. But education takes time. It takes hours of reading and learning.
Do you have a teachable spirit? Or is your mind already made up?
If you want to learn, and I am going to assume the best here, then open your heart and mind and learn.
It’s that simple.
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steved12345
Guest
Obsinate doubt (I had to look up its meaning)
Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated, doubt can lead to spiritual blindness. (CCC 2088)
Since I am not 100 percent sure my feelings are accurate… I have to say I fall into “Involuntary doubt” mentioned above.
you see I want to know the truth . I DO NOT want to reject the truth… but follow it… so my doubt is just me being honest with my feelings. But I also understand my feelings can be wrong (or they can be right). I just feel that Jesus ALONE can save us. I am not rejecting the catholic faith. It HELPS me so much get closer to God. Again, I am just being honest.
Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated, doubt can lead to spiritual blindness. (CCC 2088)
Since I am not 100 percent sure my feelings are accurate… I have to say I fall into “Involuntary doubt” mentioned above.
you see I want to know the truth . I DO NOT want to reject the truth… but follow it… so my doubt is just me being honest with my feelings. But I also understand my feelings can be wrong (or they can be right). I just feel that Jesus ALONE can save us. I am not rejecting the catholic faith. It HELPS me so much get closer to God. Again, I am just being honest.
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PRmerger
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So give us one particular teaching to which you doubt. Then we can discuss.
Also, when were you baptized a Catholic?
(Please hit the “quote” icon at the bottom right so the post to which you are responding shows up. Thanks.)
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PRmerger
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Amen.
And how is it that you know what Jesus said?
Answer: ONLY through the Catholic Church. :yup:
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steved12345
Guest
I was babtized as a baby. and i loved your question back to me … “if Jesus appeared to me and told me to pray to Mary”, would I do it… the answer is YES, YES and YES… if Jesus appeared to me and told me to do ANYTHING, I would do it and not reject it.
What I am struggling with is simple… I feel that my belief (or feelings) and acceptance of Jesus - and his mercy is all I need to get into heaven. But like some of my catholic feelings, I worry that I am wrong here and that I need to follow all of the catholic doctorine (rules) to insure heaven for me. (thus why I may still believe in Jesus saves alone - but I follow ALL of the catholic rules to insure I am obeying)… I have read over and over again the Gospels. I now what Jesus and how he loved. I also see where catholic doctorine points out versus that supports their claim - and how evangelicans do the same… and to me - both make valid points.
Then there is St Pauls letters to the early churches. Why wouldnt Paul write to the early churches or Timothy any of the current catholic doctorine. Paul many times mentions there is only one mediator to God and that is Christ. To me it would appear to be more important to follow Christ , then man made rules.
Where is purgatory even mentioned in the bible to the extent the catholic church teaches. I understand why the catholic church teaches this - I just have honest doubt about it… .why wouldnt Paul write about this in his letters to the early churches.
What about the assumption of Mary into heaven after her death. Where is that even mentioned in the bible. It isn’t… therefore man or tradition added this later on… I am not saying it is not true… I am just saying I have doubt over it.
I am not rejecting, just doubting some of these issues and doctorines. The biggest being that Christ did not die once and for all for our sins (that more action by us is needed since we all will sin)… that we need to try and be perfect and not sin in our lives (very difficult for anyone but Christ here)… but if we do , we MUST confess to a priest versus confessing straight to God with sincere repentance in our hearts. (again, I go to confession regularly and get alot out of it… i just do not beleive that had I not gone directly to a priest - but i went straigh to God … that I would not get into heaven as a result of not having the priest as a mediator between God and myself)… Why wouldnt Paul teach such an important part of the catholic faith to the early churches.
so these are some of the issues that causes the “confusion” in belief for me… it is not rejection or laziness… but I probably think way too much over all of this - and I should just believe it… but I am just being honest here… and I think God would appreciate me seeking the truth. Whatever it may be.
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PRmerger
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PRmerger
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Amen! There is indeed only One Mediator.
But then why does St. Paul ask his fellow Christians to pray for one another? Is that also not being mediators?
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PRmerger
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Why does the Bible have to mention it?
Where does the Bible state that everything God revealed is contained only in the Bible?
That is a man-made tradition. A man-made rule that you’ve been duped into believing.
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steved12345
Guest
From my reading over and over ALL of the gospels. And then also Paul’s letters. I also have listened and read books (non catholic) on Christ. Who he was, etc (Case for Christ and Case for Faith) were books that helped me get on my knees and asked Christ into my life as my savior to help my addiction and other chracter defects - and it worked !) I felt the Holy Spirit come into me… and thus I started seeking the truth. and this lead me to get more confused as I feel both sides have valid points when they point out scripture.Excellent!
Where does this idea come from?
Plus I feel Jesus love in the Gospels. How he treated people, how he told the sinner on the cross you will see me in heaven tonight. His love for man over following the rules of the religious leaders of the day was more important. I feel that if I today went to Jesus with my love, he would see my heart.
The catholic church over the many hundred of years has had it leaders do some pretty horrible things in the name of God. Including the most recent cover up scandal that has ruined so many young boys lives forever… so I question why I should believe every word or doctorine from individuals that are indeed man (and thus prone to sin like all of us - so I am not judging)… over what Jesus taught and how he lived… and what St Paul taught… or what he didnt teach. Why wouldnt St Paul mention all of these important catholic doctorines in his letters that formed the early churches… this is where I get real confused and do not beleive all of catholic doctorine that puts rules above what Jesus taught and lived.
So why wouldnt I or anyone TRUST and BELIEVE in JESUS over any church, tradition or rule that must be followed ? isnt Jesus death on the cross payment in FULL for our sins ?
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PRmerger
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Actually, none of the Gospels or Paul’s letters ever say that [fill in the blank] is “all you need” to get to heaven.
You’ve been duped into believing that, steve.
This is what the Bible says you need to do to get to heaven. We are saved:
By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)
By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)
By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)
By our words (Matt 12:37)
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PRmerger
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Yes, that is indeed grotesque.
But just as the early Christians would have been mistaken to leave Jesus because of Judas, so, too, should Catholics not leave Jesus’ Body because of horrible, sinful men.
Except that it is ONLY through men that you know what Jesus taught and how he lived. Catholic men. Catholic bishops to be exact. For it was these bishops who discerned for you that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were inspired, but that the Gospel of Barnabas, Philip, Thomas, etc were not inspired.
So you trust men each and every time you read the Gospels, do you not?
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steved12345
Guest
John 3:16 states “For God so lvoed the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELEIVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life”
you see this is what I mean… both sides can quote scripture that supports their claim… Both sides LOVE God and LOVE Jesus. Thus my confusion
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PRmerger
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Why would everything St. Paul taught be written down? Where does the Bible say that?
In fact, St. Paul taught in the temple for 3 months, (see Acts 19:8) so, logically, everything he spoke could not have been contained in the written word.
Those teachings were preserved for you and me through the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church.
You do realize that you believe in Christian rules, right? Except yours come from fallible men. Not from the revelation of God.
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PRmerger
Guest
Amen!
But what about all the other verses?
Do you think that a man can get to heaven if he doesn’t eat his flesh and drink his blood? What about that verse?
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