Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[steved12345]

John 3:16 states “For God so lvoed the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELEIVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life”

you see this is what I mean… both sides can quote scripture that supports their claim… Both sides LOVE God and LOVE Jesus. Thus my confusion

John 40 states… And this is the will of Him who sent Me. that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day"

then there is support of what I feel in …

God’s truth of salvation by grace through faith alone, totally apart from any human, religious works or human effort (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:1-5).

So these two direct quotes from Jesus himself says what is needed. It does not mention following any set of church rules and regulations…

so I do see you points and how they are valid… but I also then read the two verses I posted and see what Jesus said directly… thus my confusion continues… but please understand, I see both sides points. and want to stay part of the church and follow its rules regardless of what I may feel… I want to know the truth and may need to just slow down and stop worrying as I am sure God sees what is in my heart

 

[PRmerger]

John 40 states… And this is the will of Him who sent Me. that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day"

Amen!

So these two direct quotes from jesus himself says what is needed.

Indeed. But just not that it is "all you need’.

That is adding to Scripture, is it not?

It does not mention following any set of church rules and regulations…

Look at Luke 10:16
Matthew 16:18

Unless you follow rules, then you create your own and that’s the essence of worshipping a false god.

That ought to make you very troubled, don’t you think, steved?

 

[steved12345]

Guys… excellent feedback and insights… thank you.

again, I am just being honest here. I wish my feelings would change (and they may over time as I am praying so hard to God to know the truth - whatever that may be)… and since I am part of the catholic church and I do follow rules, I would have no problem belieiving if this is what Jesus wants me to do.

I am seeking the truth… and I posted on this site to get feedback from sincere practicing catholics that would not judge me, but share with me some insights.

** and if I truly did not beleive in the catholic church… why would I still follow its rules. why wouldnt I just leave it… so I realize that something is pulling me… you all read my post back in 2006 when I accepted Christ in my life… do you realize I was a non practicing catholic then… my asking Christ into my life to be my savior actually has gotten me back into church and following the catholic religion of my youth (although I question some doctorines). … so I see this… Man I just want to make sure I am correct in my beliefs as I do love God and want to spend eternity with Him.

so thank you

 

[PRmerger]

Guys… excellent feedback and insights… thank you.

again, I am just being honest here. I wish my feelings would change (and they may over time as I am praying so hard to God to know the truth - whatever that may be)… and since I am part of the catholic church and I do follow rules, I would have no problem belieiving if this is what Jesus wants me to do.

I am seeking the truth… and I posted on this site to get feedback from sincere practicing catholics that would not judge me, but share with me some insights.

** and if I truly did not beleive in the catholic church… why would I still follow its rules. why wouldnt I just leave it… so I realize that something is pulling me… you all read my post back in 2006 when I accepted Christ in my life… do you realize I was a non practicing catholic then… my asking Christ into my life to be my savior actually has gotten me back into church and following the catholic religion of my youth (although I question some doctorines). … so I see this… Man I just want to make sure I am correct in my beliefs as I do love God and want to spend eternity with Him.

so thank you

You’re welcome.

Can you answer the questions I posed to you, steved, regarding why we need to have everything we believe (such as purgatory) found in the Bible?

Where does the Bible say that? Chapter and verse, please!

 

[steved12345]

You’re welcome.

Can you answer the questions I posed to you, steved, regarding why we need to have everything we believe (such as purgatory) found in the Bible?

Where does the Bible say that? Chapter and verse, please!

If it is not in the bible, then I feel it was added afterwards by man (and not inspired by God)… If it was inspired by God - it would be in the bible).

Traditions can be wrong if they if they were created by man (and not God). No where did Jesus or St Paul or others even mention purgatory… and that is a pretty serious doctorine. Jesus even told a murderer that he would be in heaven before the night was through (thief on the cross). You would think that person would need cleansing and purgatory before entering heaven.

So my question is this… why must I beleive in this as fact/truth, if I believe in Jesus and follow the catholic set of rules taken from the bible quotes you have given me - to gain entry into the kingdome of heaven. Afterall the catholic church has been wrong before on issues (some of the horrible things I mentioned - who to say they cannot be wrong on other issues since they are man… where I feel the Bible is God inspired (word of God as told to us written thru men).

But I think you are hinting that maybe I was indeed brainwashed (for lack of a better term) by some evangelist I heard or read… I like to think maybe I was just seeking the truth and not just hearing the catholic doctorine without seeking all other religions… and since I did ask Jesus to help me and HE did come into my life (I am a changed man from what I used to me)… I actualyl feel the risen Christ and Holy Spirit in me… More say then anything in my life… so this is why I still question some of the "added: traditions of doctorines never mentioned in the bible or by Jesus himself - who we all admit is our Lord and Savior.

 

[PRmerger]

If it is not in the bible, then I feel it was added afterwards by man (and not inspired by God)… If it was inspired by God - it would be in the bible).

Certainly everything in the Bible is inspired by God (2 Tim 3:16).

However, that doesn’t mean that everything God revealed is ONLY found in the Scripture.

As I stated, St. Paul preached for 3 months in the temple. Clearly everything he preached could not have been written down.

So you are adding to Scripture when you make a rule: “If it’s not in the Bible I don’t believe it.”

Do you see the irony here? You are following a man-made rule, while also objecting to the fact that the Catholic Church has rules.

 

[PRmerger]

ITraditions can be wrong if they if they were created by man (and not God).

Did you know that your list of books of the NT is a product of men? It comes to you through Sacred Tradition.

For the Bible, of course, did not float down from heaven, leather-bound, with a table of contents.

The Bible was brought to you by the Catholic Church’s Sacred Tradition.

You would not know that Hebrews, Philemon, 3 John, the Gospels, etc etc etc are inspired…

except that Tradition told you.

So if you reject Tradition, you reject the Bible!

 

[steved12345]

Certainly everything in the Bible is inspired by God (2 Tim 3:16).

However, that doesn’t mean that everything God revealed is ONLY found in the Scripture.

As I stated, St. Paul preached for 3 months in the temple. Clearly everything he preached could not have been written down.

So you are adding to Scripture when you make a rule: “If it’s not in the Bible I don’t believe it.”

Do you see the irony here? You are following a man-made rule, while also objecting to the fact that the Catholic Church has rules.

NEVER said I do not believe… I said I question it… because man added there was purgatory, man added that Mary was assumed into heaven. The same men that added such were in the same positions as many of the corrupt church leaders that did horrible things. I do not mean to harp on this (as I hate this when people say this to me about catholic leaders)… .but my point is that the leaders that did horrible things can also make decisions on added beliefs (purgatory, paying indulgences for salvation, sex abuse, etc)…

Now this is a horrible example - so please do not get offended… but if church leaders said that we Must now seek salvation through say the new Pope (or anyone else) and Jesus together (not just Jesus), would you beleive this now to be the case. and that only through the Pope , Jesus and church rules can you see the Kingdome of Heaven… would you just blindly believe this since it is now catholic church teaching. Or would you question it… or would you question it against what scripture (bible) says about it… this is how I feel about purgatory and assumption of Mary. It was added and no part of the bible… yet we are all to beleive without question - by church leaders who are human beings (sinners like we all are)… so if they can add these doctorines, the example about adding new requirements to heaven (like I mentioned above), could be added and we must then believe without question ??? /… I use this as just an example

 

[steved12345]

Did you know that your list of books of the NT is a product of men? It comes to you through Sacred Tradition.

For the Bible, of course, did not float down from heaven, leather-bound, with a table of contents.

The Bible was brought to you by the Catholic Church’s Sacred Tradition.

You would not know that Hebrews, Philemon, 3 John, the Gospels, etc etc etc are inspired…

except that Tradition told you.

So if you reject Tradition, you reject the Bible!

The new testament were actually letters writen by the early church leaders. They would exist with or without the formation of the official catholic religion. But I see your point… It is the Catholic religion that stated these letters were indeed God inspired. So we agree.

so what happened all those years afterwards that the church had to add stuff like paying indulgences to get into heaven (which obviously was later dropped)… but at one point it was part of the church… also, why add purgatory and assumption of Mary if the early church inspired writers and followers of Christ (who witness him in person and spirit afterwards) did not mention it… these are pretty big issues that they would have passed along that Jesus taught.

 

[PRmerger]

because man added there was purgatory, man added that Mary was assumed into heaven.

The apostles taught about purgatory, as well as Mary’s assumption.

The same men that added such were in the same positions as many of the corrupt church leaders that did horrible things.

Then to be consistent you need to reject the canon of the NT. Because it was these men who also told you that Philemon, 3 John, Hebrews, etc etc etc are inspired.

Do you reject the canon of the NT, steved?

Or do you accept what these Catholic bishops tell you is the Word of God?

 

[PRmerger]

The new testament were actually letters writen by the early church leaders. They would exist with or without the formation of the official catholic religion. But I see your point… It is the Catholic religion that stated these letters were indeed God inspired. So we agree.

Excellent!

So you accept the authority of men. Catholic men.

And you agree they were infallible in discerning the canon of the NT?

Or do you believe that they erred and should have, perhaps, excluded Revelation and included the Shepherd of Hermas?

 

[steved12345]

Guys,

Again thank you for your replies… I am not debating every issue to bust chops… but these are my confusing feelings about some of the doctorines that I have a hard time believing… but, want to know the truth. so your responses have been very helpful to me in understanding better.

I feel honestly that the Catholic Church is indeed the Universal Church from the original church leaders. I am not 100 percent sure on all doctorine as we have been debating. You saying I can beleive the early church leaders and the NT - and thus, I must beleive without question everything going forward the church instructs us to do. even if it is wrong (like paying indulgences to get into heaven that happened way back). So if I lived back then, I would have had to agree with this church teaching since I beleive the NT writing…

But I am open to knowing the truth and wil ldo whatever Jesus wants me to do and believe. So I will pray and continue to follow the religion of my youth (Catholic) and still deep down believe that Jesus knows whats in my heart and my sincere desire to know the truth… and that He will insure and protect me - and give me peace… wherever that may lead me.

Again, thank you for all your kind replies. it has helped me alot to understand better.

 

[PRmerger]

Now this is a horrible example - so please do not get offended… but if church leaders said that we Must now seek salvation through say the new Pope (or anyone else) and Jesus together (not just Jesus), would you beleive this now to be the case. and that only through the Pope , Jesus and church rules can you see the Kingdome of Heaven… would you just blindly believe this since it is now catholic church teaching. Or would you question it… or would you question it against what scripture (bible) says about it… this is how I feel about purgatory and assumption of Mary. It was added and no part of the bible… yet we are all to beleive without question - by church leaders who are human beings (sinners like we all are)… so if they can add these doctorines, the example about adding new requirements to heaven (like I mentioned above), could be added and we must then believe without question ??? /… I use this as just an example

The Catholic Church rejects any kind of “blind” faith, steved.

Rather, we follow the mantra: * fides quarens intellectum.* Faith seeking understanding.

We are commanded to reason together (Isaiah 1:18)

 

[Nicea325]

The new testament were actually letters writen by the early church leaders. They would exist with or without the formation of the official catholic religion.

Wrong! Your position is an either/or dichotomy. The early church leaders taught and practiced a universal church. So explain to me how you separate universality from the writers?

But I see your point… It is the Catholic religion that stated these letters were indeed God inspired. So we agree

.

Yep!

so what happened all those years afterwards that the church had to add stuff like paying indulgences to get into heaven (which obviously was later dropped)… but at one point it was part of the church… also, why add purgatory and assumption of Mary if the early church inspired writers and followers of Christ (who witness him in person and spirit afterwards) did not mention it… these are pretty big issues that they would have passed along that Jesus taught.

Ahhh…no exactly! Where does Jesus mention a one volume Bible? Where does Jesus teach weddings inside a church? Wedding rings? Should I go on?

 

[PRmerger]

Guys,

Again thank you for your replies… I am not debating every issue to bust chops… but these are my confusing feelings about some of the doctorines that I have a hard time believing… but, want to know the truth. so your responses have been very helpful to me in understanding better.

I feel honestly that the Catholic Church is indeed the Universal Church from the original church leaders. I am not 100 percent sure on all doctorine as we have been debating. But I am open to knowing the truth and wil ldo whatever Jesus wants me to do and believe. So I will pray and continue to follow the religion of my youth (Catholic) and still deep down believe that Jesus knows whats in my heart and my sincere desire to know the truth… and that He will insure and protect me - and give me peace… wherever that may lead me.

Again, thank you for all your kind replies. it has helped me alot to understand better.

You’re welcome.

I hope that this thread has helped you see that you are following a man-made rule that’s not found anywhere in the Bible: “Everything I believe about God can only be found in the Bible.”

But, I’ve just been delaying the Scripture verses that refer to purgatory and Mary’s assumption because it’s a false rule you’ve been following. At any rate, here are some of the Scripture verses that support the Church’s teachings on purgatory.


Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

 

[PRmerger]

And Mary’s assumption:

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

source for above 2 posts: scripturecatholic.com/

 

[steved12345]

The Catholic Church rejects any kind of “blind” faith, steved.

Rather, we follow the mantra: * fides quarens intellectum.* Faith seeking understanding.

We are commanded to reason together (Isaiah 1:18)

Why that makes me feel so much better as I think I am trying to reason, share what I feel and listen to the official catholic church stance you are pointing out… and hopefully and prayfully I am coming to the correct conclusion that Christ wants me to follow…

 

[steved12345]

And Mary’s assumption:

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

source for above 2 posts: scripturecatholic.com/

To be honest these are all just assumptions (pardon the pun) that you quote above and conclude what they mean… but your reasoning behind each does make sense to me… and I could indeed believe this. Now do I actually beleive this, I will need to pray on this… but excellent response to my question… thank you

 

[PRmerger]

Ahhh…no exactly! Where does Jesus mention a one volume Bible? Where does Jesus teach weddings inside a church? Wedding rings? Should I go on?

Indeed.

And I would add…where does Jesus teach:

-having a steeple on your church?
-having a wedding on a beach?
-altar calls?
-folding your hands when praying to God?
-Wednesday evening Bible studies?

All of those have been added to Christians’ practices…yet none are in the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

To be honest these are all just assumptions (pardon the pun) that you quote above and conclude what they mean… but your reasoning behind each does make sense to me… and I could indeed believe this. Now do I actually beleive this, I will need to pray on this… but excellent response to my question… thank you

Well, now you can’t say that purgatory and Mary’s assumption aren’t in the Bible.