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Azygos
Guest
James 2:14
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
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14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
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jrtrent
Guest
I think you are stripping away at your misconception of faith alone. Adherents of sola fide, at least those I’ve come in contact with through their writings, are not claiming to be “saved” through faith alone, but to be “justified” through faith alone. Read the short excerpt from MacArthur again and I think you will see the distinction. Look also at that list of chapters in Boyce–election, calling, conversion, repentance, faith, justification, adoption, sanctification, and perseverance–salvation involves all of those things, not just justification.
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Azygos
Guest
You are splitting hairs here. You are trying to have the Cake and Eat it too. You and your Protestant friend Both claim to be saved/justified by Faith Alone but now you’re saying that you are not saved by Faith Alone. So which is it? Faith Alone or Not?
If you add to the doctrine of Faith Alone then it is not by Faith Alone is it…
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Christian_Unity
Guest
Do you believe your good works saves you from the wrath of God and is the basis for your reconciliation and adoption into the family of God?
Romans 4
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
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Azygos
Guest
This is the problem with you protestants. You think it’s either justified by Faith or justified by Works. The Truth is Neither but BOTH. Stop creating division. We are Justified by Faith and Works (Actions, not works of the law). Even if you are on your death bed and cannot speak you can still be saved by Faith and Works. It is a Work (or Action) to mentally accept Jesus Christ. Even Jesus himself said that if you look at a woman with lust you commit the action (work) of adultery.
Faith Alone is Nothing. Works Alone are Nothing. Faith and Works (Actions) are everything.
James 2:20-22
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Faith Alone is Nothing. Works Alone are Nothing. Faith and Works (Actions) are everything.
James 2:20-22
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
Romans 5
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Azygos
Guest
Notice it says ‘Faith’, NOT by Faith Alone.
James 2:22
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
A
Azygos
Guest
Romans 2:5-8
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
po18guy
Well-known member
Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love, faith comes first and is our entry into the divine life via those virtues. Paul says, in Romans 3:28 that we are “justified by faith”, but later on in the same letter, he teaches that we are “saved by hope” Romans 8:24. But, even hope is not final, as it will pass away when that which is hoped for arrives. In 1 Corinthians 13:13 he teaches that love is greater than either faith or hope - for in heaven there will be only love - faith and hope having passed away as the imperfect becomes the perfect (1 Corinthians 13:10,12). God is not faith; He is not hope - He is love. How shall we be like Him (Matthew 5:48) if our faith does not mature to love?
Thus, faith is your first step as a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), but it remains immature, meaning that you are fed on milk and not solid food (1 Corinthians 3:2, Hebrews 5:12). Milk will not sustain you for your entire life - you need solid food. Faith is intended to generate hope, which is a maturing factor of faith. Yet, if both of these virtues do not lead to love - a reflection of the purity of God’s love - your faith is like a clanging cymbal (1 Corinthians 13:1). Faith is merely the first step on our journey to eternity.
Read Matthew 25:14-30 - the parable of the talents. All three servants had faith in their master. Yet, only two served him out of love and provided him with an increase, according to their abilities. The third did not move beyond faith to either hope or love, and was cast out of the master’s house. At the reckoning, he provided only his faith, which was insufficient. The master expects an increase, and that requires not only the possession of, but also the working of love on our part.
Thus, faith is your first step as a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), but it remains immature, meaning that you are fed on milk and not solid food (1 Corinthians 3:2, Hebrews 5:12). Milk will not sustain you for your entire life - you need solid food. Faith is intended to generate hope, which is a maturing factor of faith. Yet, if both of these virtues do not lead to love - a reflection of the purity of God’s love - your faith is like a clanging cymbal (1 Corinthians 13:1). Faith is merely the first step on our journey to eternity.
Read Matthew 25:14-30 - the parable of the talents. All three servants had faith in their master. Yet, only two served him out of love and provided him with an increase, according to their abilities. The third did not move beyond faith to either hope or love, and was cast out of the master’s house. At the reckoning, he provided only his faith, which was insufficient. The master expects an increase, and that requires not only the possession of, but also the working of love on our part.
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benjohnson
Guest
If you mean faith as simple knowledge of God’s existence, then no.
If you mean faith as a repentant love for the risen lord as a starting point for the process of justification and sanctification, then yes.
Lutheran theology demands faith filled works in response to God’s grace, but not as a precondition of God’s salvation. Remember, Lutherans were responding to certain practices of the Catholic church at the time that seemed to require payment for salvation. Perhaps we misunderstood, but that’s what we seemed to be happening.
A
Azygos
Guest
1 Corinthians 13:2
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
Matthew 25
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
Matthew 25
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
You seem to have pulled Romans 2:5-8 out of the context from the book of Romans which about the good news of God. It seems you believe you are justified by the works of Christ (+) your personal good works, correct? Do you receive Jesus as half your Savior and see yourself contributing 50% to your own salvation? In that view of justification, do you have something to boast about before God and man?
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Azygos
Guest
The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by Faith through Grace; not from works, so that no one can boast (Ephesian’s 2:8-9). The Church also teaches that Faith without works is useless and it cannot save you. (James Chapter 2:14-17) Faith and Works (Faith in Action) are both required for Salvation (Not by Works of the Law, The Jewish Works of the Law were fulfilled by Jesus Christ and this is exactly why the apostles preached against these Jewish Works, which you will find throughout the Bible; it is the same reason we don’t sacrifice animals anymore or have dietary restrictions).
Can I be saved if I don’t repent of my sins? Repenting is an action (Work) that compliments faith; some other actions (works) are praying, the sacraments (Baptism), alms giving, and works of charity (Works of Charity are absolutely necessary, see Matthew 25:31-46).
If you receive Faith and Grace early in your life you must forever co-operate with God; which entails working to maintain your Salvation (Grace) until you die (Philippians 2:12, Matthew 24:13). If a person obtains Faith and Grace on their death bed they will be received into heaven just the same as the person who has been working/co-operating with grace their entire life. Jesus explains this further in Matthew Chapter 20; The Laborers in the Vineyard.
Can I be saved if I don’t repent of my sins? Repenting is an action (Work) that compliments faith; some other actions (works) are praying, the sacraments (Baptism), alms giving, and works of charity (Works of Charity are absolutely necessary, see Matthew 25:31-46).
If you receive Faith and Grace early in your life you must forever co-operate with God; which entails working to maintain your Salvation (Grace) until you die (Philippians 2:12, Matthew 24:13). If a person obtains Faith and Grace on their death bed they will be received into heaven just the same as the person who has been working/co-operating with grace their entire life. Jesus explains this further in Matthew Chapter 20; The Laborers in the Vineyard.
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
So, do you believe God contributes to 50% of your salvation and you contribute the other 50%?
P
Publisher
Guest
I stand before God justified not by my own works or merits but by the work of Christ alone. By exercizing faith (trust, relying on, believing in) in His mercy and grace am I saved. BECAUSE “we love him because he first loved us” “he has prepared good works for us to do”.
I do my “good works” because I have been saved by His astounding grace. I was not saved by grace by my “good works”, but by my faith in His grace and mercy have I been saved.
One who has faith in his grace and mercy cannot BUT do good works…we have a new nature…we are new creatures created TO DO good works. How do we know we are new creatures? Because of our repsonse to this grace through faith we have received by doing good works. Doing good works IS part of WHO WE NOW ARE…now that we have been “translated into the Kingdom of His Dear Son”…we now live by Kingdom precepts…not to “save” us…but because our new natures…the Christ who now lives within us…works thru us…it is not me that does good works…but “Christ who live within us, the hope of Glory.”
I am not more “saved” because of ANY work I do…I am save by grace through faith…not in myself, but in Him who gave Himself for me. “Behold what love the Father has bestowed upon us that we should be called children of God.” Even my “good works” are because of His work in me…it is His Work…not mine…“it is not I who live, but Christ who lives in me.”
All the good works in the world cannot do for me what He has already done…I live “in Him” and if He lives within me…HIs work is making me “like Him”.
My hope is in the Lord…not in myself…it is His work and His alone which saves us.
I do my “good works” because I have been saved by His astounding grace. I was not saved by grace by my “good works”, but by my faith in His grace and mercy have I been saved.
One who has faith in his grace and mercy cannot BUT do good works…we have a new nature…we are new creatures created TO DO good works. How do we know we are new creatures? Because of our repsonse to this grace through faith we have received by doing good works. Doing good works IS part of WHO WE NOW ARE…now that we have been “translated into the Kingdom of His Dear Son”…we now live by Kingdom precepts…not to “save” us…but because our new natures…the Christ who now lives within us…works thru us…it is not me that does good works…but “Christ who live within us, the hope of Glory.”
I am not more “saved” because of ANY work I do…I am save by grace through faith…not in myself, but in Him who gave Himself for me. “Behold what love the Father has bestowed upon us that we should be called children of God.” Even my “good works” are because of His work in me…it is His Work…not mine…“it is not I who live, but Christ who lives in me.”
All the good works in the world cannot do for me what He has already done…I live “in Him” and if He lives within me…HIs work is making me “like Him”.
My hope is in the Lord…not in myself…it is His work and His alone which saves us.
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Azygos
Guest
You presenting an erroneous question better know as a false dilemma.
God gives us 100% of our Salvation but if you fail to co-operate with his WILL then you will inherit the eternal fires of Hell.
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the WILL of my Father in heaven.
P
Publisher
Guest
They may have “intellecutal” ascent that God exists, but they do not put their trust in Him, they do not hope in Him, they do not rely upon Him…to use James…they cannot be “saved” because they have no works which flows from that saving faith.
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Azygos
Guest
I agree with you 100% but if you do not co-operate/respond to the Good Works he created for us since the beginning (Ephesians 2:10) then you cannot be saved. Faith without Works is Dead (James 2:26).
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jrtrent
Guest
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Azygos
Guest
If Salvation is by Faith, Obeying God and Good Works then it is not by ‘Faith Alone’ and your doctrine is False. It is what it is. A Duck is a Duck. So are you Saved by Faith Alone or Faith plus Obeying God, plus Good Works?
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