Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[Isaiah45_9]

jrtrent,

There is no way around it. James said what the Holy Spirit told him to write. It is clear and indisputable. You can try to find apologists everywhere you want to, but James is still saying exactly what it says.

Faith causes action, it is not alone. The only reason “Sola Fide” exists is for the same reason “Sola Scriptura” exists = Easy Belief.

Do you have to repent (Action)?
Do you have to believe (Action)?
Do you have to love (Action)?
Do you have to help (Action) others?
Do you have to obey (Action) Jesus and His commandments?
Do you have to forgive (Action)?
Do you have to share (Action) the Gospel?
Do you have to confess (Action) your sins?

Salvation is from the Lord, but we are required to respond to that invitation, to that Grace. We are commanded by the Risen Christ to do what He has asked, what He has commanded.

*James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.*

No matter how many times you read it, it will always say the same. Don’t let anyone fool you or lead you astray.

Christ is knocking at your door. Will you answer (Action)?

 

[SteveVH]

jrtrent,

There is no way around it. James said what the Holy Spirit told him to write. It is clear and indisputable. You can try to find apologists everywhere you want to, but James is still saying exactly what it says.

Faith causes action, it is not alone. The only reason “Sola Fide” exists is for the same reason “Sola Scriptura” exists = Easy Belief.

Do you have to repent (Action)?
Do you have to believe (Action)?
Do you have to love (Action)?
Do you have to help (Action) others?
Do you have to obey (Action) Jesus and His commandments?
Do you have to forgive (Action)?
Do you have to share (Action) the Gospel?
Do you have to confess (Action) your sins?

Salvation is from the Lord, but we are required to respond to that invitation, to that Grace. We are commanded by the Risen Christ to do what He has asked, what He has commanded.

*James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.*

No matter how many times you read it, it will always say the same. Don’t let anyone fool you or lead you astray.

Christ is knocking at your door. Will you answer (Action)?

Great post.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Great post.

Thank you brother! That was a hard lesson for me as well , I am free and Home now

 

[Azygos]

Protestants, I recommend reading this article by Tim Staples.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/we-can-work-it-out

 

[Publisher]

I disagree. God’s grace is always there, free to be accepted or rejected. By our FAITH we accept HIS gift of grace. Without faith, God’s grace cannot be received. His grace isnt automatically imparted onto us.

God’s prevenient grace is there freely for all…and all receive His grace and are Called Home to Him…He seeks the lost and will not rest in that Search until all is laid at His feet…One Day “every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord”.

One Day

 

[Publisher]

Are you justified by Faith Alone?

Yes or No?

We are justified by God’s grace thru Christ…that grace is received thru faith alone…thru God’s grace by faith we are regenerated as New Creations…partakers of the Divine Nature and this Divine Nature we now have calls us to do good works…The author of James was correct…“saving” faith produces works…not to 'save" us…but BECAUSE we are “saved”. Without works we know that the regeneration of our inner man has not been regenerated…if it had been regenerated we would do good works…if there is no Change…faith that truly saves has not been exercised.

We are not saved by agreeing and stating we “believe”…we are save because we believe…and this belief is manifested in our lives…if there is no Change…we are still in our sins.

 

[Azygos]

One Day “every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord”.

Amen!

Now I’m curious about your Faith…
What is a Quaker?

Is this an accurate description of your beliefs? (The Link Below)
christianity.about.com/od/quakers/a/quakersbeliefs.htm

 

[Azygos]

**We are justified **by God’s grace thru Christ…that grace is received thru faith alone…

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”

24 See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

 

[Publisher]

Amen!

Now I’m curious about your Faith…
What is a Quaker?

Is this an accurate description of your beliefs? (The Link Below)
christianity.about.com/od/quakers/a/quakersbeliefs.htm

The Society of Friends believes that the Light which entered our world in the man Jesus…our Imanuel…God with us…calls every man to Himself. “the Light that enlightens every man” entered our world in the man Jesus…thru Him and by His work and work alone, we are regenerated.

Friends do not place their fiath in rituals or rites…we have One Priest who Baptizes us in His Spirit…each of us may approach God thru Christ with no human mediator…“we boldly approach the Throne of Grace”…no ritual, rite, sacrament is necessary to receive His grace thru faith. He is our Present Teacher. Where two or three are gathered in His Name…He is Truly Present.

 

[Azygos]

The Society of Friends believes that the Light which entered our world in the man Jesus…our Imanuel…God with us…calls every man to Himself. “the Light that enlightens every man” entered our world in the man Jesus…thru Him and by His work and work alone, we are regenerated.

I agree that we can do nothing apart from God (Jesus Christ). That is why we must co-operate with God and his free gift of salvation through our own actions and obedience. (Repentance, Good Work, Charity, Sacraments, Baptism (Physical Water, In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

Friends do not place their fiath in rituals or rites…

Catholics place their Faith in Jesus Christ and all the Religious teachings that Jesus Christ left us, including the Sacraments. There is no division of Faith between Jesus and the sacraments but a Unity.

we have One Priest who Baptizes us in His Spirit…each of us may approach God thru Christ with no human mediator…“we boldly approach the Throne of Grace”…no ritual, rite, sacrament is necessary to receive His grace thru faith. He is our Present Teacher. Where two or three are gathered in His Name…He is Truly Present.

What does it mean to baptize in his spirit? No sacraments are necessary? What about the Sacraments that Jesus established… Completely irrelevant I suppose?

Anyways, lets follow this theology out… Why even be a Quaker if everything is possible on your own? Why have a priest that baptizes you in spirit (whatever that means)? Why gather with two or three people? If he is your present teacher then why read the bible? Why have a priest? Why do anything?

And just so you are not confused about this Catholics believe Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and Mankind. We also believe the Church is the Body of Christ just like it says in scripture, with Jesus as it’s Head. So to say the Church and the Sacraments are irrelevant is a blasphemy against Jesus. Jesus Christ paid for the Church with his BLOOD (Acts 20:28) and instituted the Sacraments so that we would use them to live Holy Lives (John 6:53, Eucharist).

 

[Azygos]

Baptism Explained, Please Read

Membership
Baptism enters you into membership with the body of Christ, which is the Church. It is the new rite of initiation that replaces the old rite of circumcision → (Luke 2:21-23).
**
The Church is the Body of Christ**
Ephesians 1:20-23
22 And he (God, The Father) put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head (Jesus Christ) over all things to** the church, 23 which is his body**, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

Colossians 1:18
18 He (Jesus Christ) is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.

Rite of Baptism (Membership)
1 Cor. 12:12-13
12 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the Church), whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27-28
27** For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.** 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
**
Romans 6:3-7
3 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?** 4 We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. 5 For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin. 7 For a dead person has been** absolved from sin.
**
Baptism the New Creation
(Notice the underlined verse above in Romans 6:6 and compare it to the underlined verse below)

Galatians 6:14-15
14 But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither does circumcision (Circumcision of the Old Rite) mean anything, nor does uncircumcision (of the Old Rite), but only a **New Creation (Baptism).
**
2nd Corinthians 5
16 Consequently, from now on we regard no one according to the flesh; even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him so no longer. 17 So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

Replacement of the Old Rite with Baptism
Colossian 2:11-12
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. 12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism necessary for Salvation (To be Saved)
1 Peter 3:20-21
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. (<- Typology) 21 This prefigured **baptism, which saves you now. **It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, (<- Seriously, serious) I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit (Baptism).

The Thief is on the Cross is the exception to the set standard and God does not need to use Baptism by water to save anyone; all he has to do is will it and it is so. Baptism (Water & Spirit) is the standard for salvation as established by Jesus Christ and confirmed by the Bible. Using common sense and Theology one can discover that there are 3 types of Baptisms with the first one being the standard. Baptism by Water and Spirit (The Standard), Baptism by Desire (A Person Desires to get baptized but dies before they get a chance to comparable to the Thief on the cross, laziness does not count…) and Baptism by Blood (A person is martyred for Christ before they get a chance to be baptized).
**
Baptism necessary for Salvation (Continued……)**
Acts 22:16
16 Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’
**
Baptism gifts you the Holy Spirit (commonly know as Regeneration)**
Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is made to you and to your children (Infant Baptism) and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

John 1:32-33
32 John testified further, saying, "I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from the sky and remain upon him. 33 I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

Matthew 3:16
16 After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the (Holy) Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him.

Galatians 3:27-28
27 For all of you who were **baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
**
Titus 3:5
5 not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, **he saved us through the bath of rebirth (Baptism) and renewal (Regeneration) by the Holy Spirit,
**

 

[fhansen]

Faith alone is equivalent to Spiritual alone. We don’t live solely in a Spiritual Reality, our Reality is Spiritual and Physical. If Faith alone is sufficient then why must we do the Physical act of Praying or Repenting? Faith alone drawn down to its natural conclusion simply means No Physical acts, No Prayer, No Repentance, are needed for Salvation. Which also means no Physical acts can cause one to lose salvation, including mass murder. Faith alone is essentially nothing, without meaning, Void of Life or Dead. For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead (James 2:26).

Is Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing? :whacky:

Rather than reading through the whole thread, if it hasn’t already been mentioned here’s what a Christian, quite mature in His faith and knowledge of God, said about faith: If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing 1Cor 13:2

Paul knew that it would be closer to the truth to say that love alone saves, rather than faith; love is what constitutes man’s justice, and this is why the first and greatest commandments happen to be what they are. Faith is simply the first step to restored relationship with God, which is intended to blossom into full-on love for Himself and our neighbor. This is the essence of the New Covenant; this is how God intends to “place His laws in our hearts and write them in our minds”, as He truly becomes the God of man again. We’re justified via faith, but this in no way means that our justice is constituted solely of faith.

 

[BA11]

I agree. I’m afraid our separated brethren cannot give up Justification by Faith Alone even though it is in direct contradiction to God (Sacred Scriptures). To do this would be to admit that Martin Luther was wrong and all of Protestantism falls apart…

It’s no mystery why Martin Luther called the Book of James an Epistle of Straw…

It doesnt help that many dont have a good understanding of faith alone or the context of the book of James.

The book of James and Romans/Galatians do not read like contradictory texts nor works based salvation to me. The context and tone of each is clearly different. Paul’s writings frequently speak to our justification before God. James is addressing salvation before men. Paul makes it clear that we are justified before God with our faith, whereas James is speaking to the earthly identity of those who are TRULY justified. What many call “easy believism”, and what catholics frequently chracteize faith alone as, isnt a saving faith as it produces no change in a person and is what James is discussing.

If we are justified before God through any work of our own other than partaking of his gift of salvation then the entire message of the new testement becomes null and void. We are told SPECIFICALLY how we know if we are saved over and over again, and adding works to that salvation would make such statements invalid. How do we know when we’ve done enough good? How do we know when we are truly his? I dont worry about that, because I know I am sealed by the blood of my savior. Nothing can snatch me from his hand but my own free will to dismiss him. I try and obey his will because I am his to do what he will with, not because Im worried about going to hell. I couldnt live like that, and I thank God the gospel doesnt teach that.

Paul said to work out our salvation with “fear and trembling”, and I do so every day. I pray that God continues to fortify my faith and revererance towards him. I pray that he gives me the strength to always know the truth despite the world telling me sin is ok and God isnt real or isnt holy. I dont sit around and fret about my soul though, because Jesus Christ has already paid my way. All I have to do is trust in him to get me where I need to go and not get off the bus.

 

[BA11]

‘Accepting’ is an Action/Work. So you are obviously saved by Grace through Faith and Works/Actions of Faith, NOT by Faith Alone. Thank you for clarifying that for me.

You’re arguing semantics. By this logic, faith is also a work and your whole flawed thesis falls apart anyway.

Yes, salvation requires an action on our part. We cant just sit there with the knowledge in our heads and go to heaven, because that isnt faith. Salvation does not require legalistic works of the law or loving deeds, but rather obedience results from our changed nature.

The problem is that you define “faith alone” much the way one would define a simple knowledge of facts. I know Barack Obama is the president, but I have little faith in him. Alternatively, I know God and Jesus and grace are real and have faith in their ability to save my soul. Because of that faith, the faith that leads me to put myself in his hands to save, I am justified. Even the demons have the kind of faith you are talking about. In no way does such a “faith” save you, which is exactly what James was talking about when answering how a man can know if he is saved. Are you a new creature in Christ, or are you simply one who believes but doesnt trust?

 

[BA11]

Are those actions (repentance, etc) required to receive and maintain the free gift of salvation?

Repentance is part of a true faith. Without the realization that you are wretched, lost and undeserving you cannot have biblical faith because biblical faith is defined as trusting the blood of Jesus to save you from yourself. Without that genuine remorse and repentance you can’t have biblical faith.

You are trying to seperate the two to create a strawman “gotcha” moment, when the reality is that the two are inseperable.

 

[CatholicofAgora]

Lol, only on a Catholic/Christian forums website can there be an eleven-page argument over the value of faith in relation to salvation

 

[ltwin]

Isn’t repentance and confessing your sins also necessary along with faith?

Someone who has true faith will confess sin and repent.

You are correct. TRUE faith leads to repentance which is NECESSARY to be saved. Therefore you are not saved by faith alone

Repentance or action is part of having faith. However, that does not mean that faith and repentance/action are separate, side by side contributors to salvation. It is not like you can have real faith without corresponding action, and you cannot have repentance without real faith. On the contrary, those who have real faith will produce the fruit of that faith, but it is not the fruit that determines our standing before God. The fruit is an outgrowth of having faith.

The important thing to understanding Sola Fide is that we cannot appropriate the work of Christ on our behalf by our own work or effort (however commendable). We can only lay hold of God’s grace by placing faith in Christ. Faith is the doorway to grace, the Christian life, to repentance, and to holiness.

Faith alone has one meaning and you can find it on James 2:24.

I agree that faith without deeds is dead. It is not a dead faith that justifies but a real, living faith. Repentance and holy living accompany it rather than exist apart from it. As one of the authors quoted by jrtrent said, “you can’t do one without doing the other.”

Sacred scripture alone (minus people that is…) cannot resolve anything. In your opinion, did Jesus leave His church with a way to resolve these differences?

Besides continual prayer for unity, the Holy Spirit, continual searching of the Scriptures and our efforts at better understanding each other and where our real differences lie, I don’t think there is a way to resolve these differences. It will need to be a move of God.

 

[BA11]

Someone who has true faith will confess sin and repent.

Repentance or action is part of having faith. However, that does not mean that faith and repentance/action are separate, side by side contributors to salvation. It is not like you can have real faith without corresponding action, and you cannot have repentance without real faith. On the contrary, those who have real faith will produce the fruit of that faith, but it is not the fruit that determines our standing before God. The fruit is an outgrowth of having faith.

The important thing is to understanding Sola Fide is that we cannot appropriate the work of Christ on our behalf by our own work or effort (however commendable). We can only lay hold of God’s grace by placing faith in Christ. Faith is the doorway to grace, the Christian life, to repentance, and to holiness.

I agree that faith without deeds is dead. It is not a dead faith that justifies but a real, living faith. Repentance and holy living accompany it rather than exist apart from it. As one of the authors quoted by jrtrent said, “you can’t do one without doing the other.”

Besides continual prayer for unity, the Holy Spirit, continual searching of the Scriptures and our efforts at better understanding each other and where our real differences lie, I don’t think there is a way to resolve these differences. It will need to be a move of God.

This guy, he gets it

 

[ltwin]

There are several problems here. Faith and Grace are two different things. Sola Faith and Sola Grace are definitely two different things. Wouldn’t it be quite circular if they mean the same thing (I agree they work together but I am making a point)? Especially considering it says in Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith. It does not say we are saved by faith through faith or by grace through grace. I just wanted to clarify this…

He’s not saying they are the same thing. He is saying that the two concepts: Grace Alone and Faith Alone must be understood together.

Faith Alone is not the only Sola? Why call it Faith Alone then? Isn’t that the whole meaning of Sola Fide? Justification by ‘Faith Alone’…?

No. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for the glory of God alone. You see here that the italicized words are each a concept or person distinct from every other italicized word. The words in bold are each different functions that the italicized words accomplish.

For example, God’s grace saves us. Faith is the method by which we receive God’s grace; it is the instrument. Christ is the person we put our faith in. The purpose of all of this is the glory of God.

The words “alone” here indicate that all of the italicized words are the only things or persons that can accomplish the accompanying functions. Only God’s grace can save us. Only by faith can we appropriate that grace. Only faith in Christ can accomplish anything. And only God gets all the glory and credit.

If Faith Alone is not justification by Faith Alone then Faith Alone is False. If Faith Alone is not the only Sola then Justification cannot be called by Sola Faith because it is not Sola anymore.

You guys keep telling me I don’t understand Faith Alone but I understand it perfectly. It means Justified by Faith Alone, if you add to this then it is not by Faith Alone. Such as adding the Physical Work/Action of Repentance. If Repentance (A Work) is required for Justification then Faith Alone is False because you are not justified by Faith Alone (Sola).

To be honest, I don’t think you really understand it. And I’m not saying that to be rude or mean. I’m trying to point out that you really need to read more on the subject if you want to argue against it from a Catholic point of view more effectively, because there is nothing anymore non-effective than an apologist who doesn’t understand the theology he is arguing against.

 

[ltwin]

We are justified by God’s grace thru Christ…that grace is received thru faith alone…thru God’s grace by faith we are regenerated as New Creations…partakers of the Divine Nature and this Divine Nature we now have calls us to do good works…The author of James was correct…“saving” faith produces works…not to 'save" us…but BECAUSE we are “saved”. Without works we know that the regeneration of our inner man has not been regenerated…if it had been regenerated we would do good works…if there is no Change…faith that truly saves has not been exercised.

We are not saved by agreeing and stating we “believe”…we are save because we believe…and this belief is manifested in our lives…if there is no Change…we are still in our sins.

Wonderfully said.