Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[jrtrent]

Why change the subject? Because you cannot justify this direct contradiction to scripture?

I didn’t change the subject; I was responding to Joe370’s question on the need for reformed theology. McGrath’s article does a good of explaining why it was needed then, and why it is still needed today.

 

[jrtrent]

To be honest, I don’t think you really understand it. And I’m not saying that to be rude or mean. I’m trying to point out that you really need to read more on the subject if you want to argue against it from a Catholic point of view more effectively . . .

It’s one of the things I like about this forum, at least in principal, that people are trying to better understand each other’s faiths, not to be critical or disrespectful of each other’s faith. Your post reminds me of a Fulton Sheen quote I’ve seen many times, “There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.” A bit hyperbolic, perhaps, but true in the reverse as well, that Catholics aren’t always fighting against what non-Catholic religions teach, but what they perceive them to teach.

 

[Third_Day]

=ltwin;10428907]Someone who has true faith will confess sin and repent.

Then one is NOT justified by faith alone. You have just added something to your faith, confessing and repenting. Why do you add “true” to faith? You must believe that there is such a thing as “false” faith. What is the difference between true and false faith? Good Works. Therefore for faith to be true faith must have good works and therefore justification by faith alone is false and justification by faith and works (all by God’s grace) is true.

Repentance or action is part of having faith.

Catholics say Amen!

However, that does not mean that faith and repentance/action are separate, side by side contributors to salvation.

Amen! Where does the Catholic Church teach they are separate actions? Faith without works is a dead faith.

It is not like you can have real faith without corresponding action, and you cannot have repentance without real faith

. Very Catholic

On the contrary, those who have real faith will produce the fruit of that faith, but it is not the fruit that determines our standing before God. The fruit is an outgrowth of having faith.

How can you say that? Bad fruit equals bad faith. Good fruit means one is cooperating with God’s grace.
Question: Are you still saved if you commit adultery and do not confess that sin and repent? Your answer must be yes because you believe that your faith alone justifies you.

The important thing to understanding Sola Fide is that we cannot appropriate the work of Christ on our behalf b**y our own work or effort **(however commendable).

It is not our own effort. It is God’s grace working in us. All we do is say yes to His grace.

We can only lay hold of God’s grace by placing faith in Christ. Faith is the doorway to grace, the Christian life,** to repentance, and to holiness**.

And without repentance and the pursuit of holiness one will not be saved. Faith, by itself, is not enough. Faith must be accompanied by our cooperation with God’s grace that manifests itself in good works that are necessary for a saving faith.

I agree that faith without deeds is dead. It is not a dead faith that justifies but a real, living faith.** Repentance and holy living** accompany it rather than exist apart from it. As one of the authors quoted by jrtrent said, “you can’t do one without doing the other.”

Then faith cannot be alone

 

[Third_Day]

=jrtrent;10428158 As to James 2:24, I understand it as John Gill does. Below is a brief part of his commentary.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,… Not as causes procuring his justification, but as effects declaring it; for the best works are imperfect, and** cannot be a righteousness justifying in the sight of God**, and are unprofitable in this respect; for when they are performed in the best manner, they are no other than what it is a man’s duty to perform, and therefore cannot justify from sin he has committed: and besides, justification in this sense would frustrate the grace of God, make void the death of Christ, and encourage boasting in men. Good works do not go before justification as causes or conditions, but follow it as fruits and effects: bible.cc/james/2-24.htm

Would Abraham have remained justified by God if he had refused to sacrifice his son Isaac?

=jrtrent;10428158 James said Abraham was justified by his works when offering up Isaac, yet he also said Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. I think Gill’s explanation harmonizes James well with other passages such as Ephesians 2:8-10:

Yes. Right there we have justification by faith and by works. Not faith alone, not works alone but faith and works. Both are Gifts of God.

Salvation is wholly a gift from God, not from any actions we do, yet as a result of this gift, we are to be employed in such good actions as He puts us to.

You are missing the fact that our actions are also gifts from God. Our actions are prompted and accomplished by grace alone. That is why Paul says in Phillippians"“Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
Catholics accept the plain meaning of this passage: we cooperate with God, and it is God who does it all since he is “at work” in us, “both to will and to work.”

 

[BA11]

Biblical faith includes repentance. When we say faith alone, we mean faith alone. Faith without sincerity and repentance is merely belief, not faith. Thus, who only believes is not saved because belief does not equal faith. Does the bible say the demons have faith, or that they believe? Does Jesus applaud Peter’s faith, or his belief?

James is the most misunderstood text in the bible. Is he preaching works? No, he’s teaching true faith. Faith without works is belief, faith with resulting change is just that: Faith.

Find me a protestant who says faith without change saves, and Ill show you someone who doesnt know what biblical faith is.

 

[Third_Day]

=BA11;10429090]Biblical faith includes repentance. When we say faith alone, we mean faith alone.

Isn’t that a contradiction? How can faith be alone if it includes repentance?

Faith without sincerity and repentance is merely belief, not faith.

Do you agree that when Paul says we are justified by faith he is including repentance and obedience to God’s commandments as part of faith?

 

[jrtrent]

Faith causes action, it is not alone.

I agree; faith is not alone. And that is the reformed and Lutheran perspective as well. I think where we’re butting heads is in what the reformers referred to as the confounding of justification and sanctification. The former is seen as “a legal act of God’s free grace whereby He pardons our sins and accepts us as righteous in His sight, but does not change us inwardly”; the latter is “a moral or re-creative work, changing the inner nature of man.”

As Berkhof goes on to say, “while they made a careful distinction between the two, they also stressed their inseparable connection. While deeply convinced that man is justified by faith alone, they also understood that the faith which justifies is not alone. Justification is at once followed by sanctification, since God sends out the Spirit of His Son into the hearts of His own as soon as they are justiied, and that Spirit is the Spirit of sanctification.”

The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord makes the same point:

. . . neither renewal, sanctification, virtues nor good works are tamquam forma aut pars aut causa iustificationis, that is, our righteousness before God, nor are they to be constituted and set up as a part or cause of our righteousness, or otherwise under any pretext, title, or name whatever to be mingled in the article of justification as necessary and belonging thereto; but that the righteousness of faith consists alone in the forgiveness of sins out of pure grace, for the sake of Christ’s merit alone; which blessings are offered us in the promise of the Gospel, and are received, accepted, applied, and appropriated by faith alone. . .

For good works do not precede faith, neither does sanctification precede justification. But first faith is kindled in us in conversion by the Holy Ghost from the hearing of the Gospel. This lays hold of God’s grace in Christ, by which the person is justified. Then, when the person is justified, he is also renewed and sanctified by the Holy Ghost, from which renewal and sanctification the fruits of good works then follow. . .

This should not be understood as though justification and renewal were sundered from one another in such a manner that a genuine faith sometimes could exist and continue for a time together with a wicked intention, but hereby only the order [of causes and effects, of antecedents and consequents] is indicated, how one precedes or succeeds the other. For what Luther has correctly said remains true nevertheless: Faith and good works well agree and fit together [are inseparably connected]; but it is faith alone, without works, which lays hold of the blessing; and yet it is never and at no time alone. bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php (paragraphs 39-41)

And there is a short treatment of James 2 in paragraph 42:

Many disputations also are usefully and well explained by means of this true distinction, of which the Apology treats in reference to the passage James 2:20. For when we speak of faith, how it justifies, the doctrine of St. Paul is that faith alone, without works, justifies, Rom. 3:28, inasmuch as it applies and appropriates to us the merit of Christ, as has been said. But if the question is, wherein and whereby a Christian can perceive and distinguish, either in himself or in others, a true living faith from a feigned and dead faith, (since many idle, secure Christians imagine for themselves a delusion in place of faith, while they nevertheless have no true faith,) the Apology gives this answer: James calls that dead faith where good works and fruits of the Spirit of every kind do not follow. And to this effect the Latin edition of the Apology says: Iacobus recte negat, nos tali fide iustificari, quae est sine operibus, hoc est, quae mortua est. That is: St. James teaches correctly when he denies that we are justified by such a faith as is without works, which is dead faith.

 

[BA11]

Isn’t that a contradiction? How can faith be alone if it includes repentance?

Only if you want there to be a contradiction.

Do you agree that when Paul says we are justified by faith he is including repentance and obedience to God’s commandments as part of faith?

I agree that without repentance and obedience we’re no longer talking about faith. We’re talking about what even the demons have.

 

[JonNC]

Faith Alone or Grace Alone?

Those are TWO different theologies.

Oh, indeed not! Without grace there is no salvation, no justification, no sanctification, no faith. It is by grace through faith that we are justified. Faith is, effectively, the vehicle by which we access grace, and it, too, is a gift of grace.

Jon

 

[Third_Day]

.I agree that without repentance and obedience we’re no longer talking about faith. We’re talking about what even the demons have.

Do you agree that repentance and obedience are works that are necessary to be saved along with faith?

 

[fhansen]

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”

24 See how a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

Amen! There are no such terms in the bible as “saving faith” or “faith alone”, except for James 2 in the latter case. The two, faith and works, cannot be separated except to our peril, and in the end neither one is more important than the other in terms of salvation. But they are separable, and that’s the point James is making. Gal 5:6 describes how it’s supposed to work. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. While faith can exist without love, love includes and encompasses all the other virtues, including faith.

And the Parable of the Talents, among other passages, describes how we must continue to do this, utilizing the gifts we’re given for the time we have to the best of our abilities, with the loss of the kingdom at stake for those who refuse.

 

[ltwin]

Then one is NOT justified by faith alone. You have just added something to your faith, confessing and repenting. Why do you add “true” to faith? You must believe that there is such a thing as “false” faith. What is the difference between true and false faith? Good Works. Therefore for faith to be true faith must have good works and therefore justification by faith alone is false and justification by faith and works (all by God’s grace) is true.

I haven’t added anything to faith. I’m rightfully recognizing that faith minus works is no faith at all. So, it is not through faith and works that we are justified, since that would meant that our work could in some way merit justification. It is through faith, which will always produce works. If works are absent then faith is absent. I’m not adding anything to faith, only recognizing what it is to truly have faith in Christ Jesus.

How can you say that? Bad fruit equals bad faith. Good fruit means one is cooperating with God’s grace.

Bad faith is no faith at all. It is not possible for anyone to go before God and say, “I have faith that produced bad fruit.” “Bad faith” does not produce anything because bad faith doesn’t exist. There is only good faith, and it produces good fruit. You either have faith or you don’t.

Question: Are you still saved if you commit adultery and do not confess that sin and repent? Your answer must be yes because you believe that your faith alone justifies you.

What on earth. Have you read any of my posts on this thread? I’ll direct you to post numbers 2, 102, 123, 156, and 158. Specifically post 102 where I wrote,

“I’m always confessing my sins to God and praying penitential prayers. I’m not perfect, but God’s grace is sufficient. I would never think about having unconfessed sin in my life. That is dangerous!!!”

God’s grace alone justifies me. His prevenient grace goes before and softens my heart. Through the agency of the Word and the Holy Spirit, I am convinced of sin and moved to faith. In faith, I repent. I receive God’s grace and Christ’s victory over sin and carnality through faith. My own works cannot appropriate for me the merit of Christ, only faith can do that. Through faith,I receive God’s grace which is sufficient for me. So now all that I do in faith becomes a means of grace, and I am transformed into the image of Christ.

It is not our own effort. It is God’s grace working in us. All we do is say yes to His grace.

I agree. Every victory over sin and every time we pursue holiness is Christ victorious. That is why we say grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

And without repentance and the pursuit of holiness one will not be saved. Faith, by itself, is not enough. Faith must be accompanied by our cooperation with God’s grace that manifests itself in good works that are necessary for a saving faith.

What may I ask is your definition of faith? Is it just mental assent? That is not my definition of faith. Saving faith does not exist without repentance and holiness.

Then faith cannot be alone

Yes it can. What “Faith Alone” signifies is that it is through faith ALONE that we have access to God’s grace. There is no other channel outside of it. Work and action that we perform in FAITH can indeed be manifestations of God’s grace, but faith must be there.

 

[Third_Day]

=ltwin;10429170]I haven’t added anything to faith. I’m rightfully recognizing that faith minus works is no faith at all. So, it is not through faith and works that we are justified, since that would meant that our work could in some way merit justification. It is through faith, which will always produce works. If works are absent then faith is absent. I’m not adding anything to faith, only recognizing what it is to truly have faith in Christ Jesus.

It is not OUR work. It is God who is working in us. He gives us the grace to do good works and therefore we are justified by those works that he gives us the grace to do. That is why James can say we are justified by works and not by faith alone. It is all God’s grace.

What on earth. Have you read any of my posts on this thread? I’ll direct you to post numbers 2, 102, 123, 156, and 158. Specifically post 102 where I wrote,

No I haven’t read all your posts. I am trying to figure out where you are coming from starting at this point

“I’m always confessing my sins to God and praying penitential prayers. I’m not perfect, but God’s grace is sufficient. I would never think about having unconfessed sin in my life. That is dangerous!!!”

Isn’t confessing your sins a “work?” You may say that confessing sins is a fruit of your faith and I agree but isn’t it a necessary fruit in order to be justified?

God’s grace alone justifies me.

When did you receive this justifying grace?

My own works cannot appropriate for me the merit of Christ, only faith can do that

Are they your “own” works or are they works prompted and accomplished by grace?

Through faith,I receive God’s grace which is sufficient for me. So now all that I do in faith becomes a means of grace, and I am transformed into the image of Christ.

Just curious. What happens if you backslide into the sin of adultery or fornication. Will faith alone save you?

What may I ask is your definition of faith? Is it just mental assent? That is not my definition of faith. Saving faith does not exist without repentance and holiness.

I agree with you that saving faith does not exist without repentance and holiness. I just don’t understand why you can’t say we are justified by faith and by works when both are gifts of grace?

Yes it can. What “Faith Alone” signifies is that it is through faith ALONE that we have access to God’s grace. There is no other channel outside of it. Work and action that we perform in FAITH can indeed be manifestations of God’s grace, but faith must be there.

I just don’t see why you cannot bring yourself to agree with James who clearly states we are justified by works and not by faith alone. James is not talking about “natural” works but “supernatural” works of grace.

 

[JonNC]

You’re arguing semantics. By this logic, faith is also a work and your whole flawed thesis falls apart anyway.

The difference between receiving justifying faith, and accepting is not merely a matter of semantics. at least, not where Lutherans are concerned. One rarely hears among Lutherans the idea that we “accept”, but rather “receive”.

Jon

 

[BA11]

Do you agree that repentance and obedience are works that are necessary to be saved along with faith?

No

 

[JonNC]

There are several problems here. Faith and Grace are two different things. Sola Faith and Sola Grace are definitely two different things. Wouldn’t it be quite circular if they mean the same thing (I agree they work together but I am making a point)? Especially considering it says in Ephesians that we are saved by grace through faith. It does not say we are saved by faith through faith or by grace through grace. I just wanted to clarify this…

Faith Alone is not the only Sola? Why call it Faith Alone then? Isn’t that the whole meaning of Sola Fide? Justification by ‘Faith Alone’…?

If Faith Alone is not justification by Faith Alone then Faith Alone is False. If Faith Alone is not the only Sola then Justification cannot be called by Sola Faith because it is not Sola anymore.

You guys keep telling me I don’t understand Faith Alone but I understand it perfectly. It means Justified by Faith Alone, if you add to this then it is not by Faith Alone. Such as adding the Physical Work/Action of Repentance. If Repentance (A Work) is required for Justification then Faith Alone is False because you are not justified by Faith Alone (Sola).

A complete misunderstanding of the use of the term “sola”. Each sola has to do with an exclusion of anything else in regards the particular term is qualifies. For example, there is no other way that we come to salvation other than grace. Without grace, there is no faith, no justification, no sanctification, no salvation. Therefore, by grace alone.
The sola in sola fide is an exclusion of any other means by which we access justification, not by works of the law, not by our own merit, not by our own actions. Therefore, we are justified by Grace alone through faith alone.
The sola in sola Christus is the recognition that the actions and person of the God-man, Jesus Christ, are the only thing that makes salvation possible. It is the suffering, death and ressurection of our Savior only that makes salvation possible.
The solas do not exclude each other because they do not refer to each other.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Amen! There are no such terms in the bible as “saving faith” or “faith alone”, except for James 2 in the latter case. The two, faith and works, cannot be separated except to our peril, and in the end neither one is more important than the other in terms of salvation. But they are separable, and that’s the point James is making. Gal 5:6 describes how it’s supposed to work. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. While faith can exist without love, love includes and encompasses all the other virtues, including faith.

And the Parable of the Talents, among other passages, describes how we must continue to do this, utilizing the gifts we’re given for the time we have to the best of our abilities, with the loss of the kingdom at stake for those who refuse.

Luther on Galatians 5:6:

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love.** If faith lacks love it is not true faith**. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Do you agree that repentance and obedience are works that are necessary to be saved along with faith?

Not in the sense that they are a part of justification. Repentance and obedience are required in the sense that repeated, unrepented sin leads to a loss of saving faith.

Jon

 

[Third_Day]

No

Thanks for being honest.
Doesn’t scripture say over and over to repent? Doesn’t scripture say that IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us? 1 John 1:9
Doesn’t scripture say he who believes AND is baptized will be saved?

 

[Third_Day]

Not in the sense that they are a part of justification. Repentance and obedience are required in the sense that repeated, unrepented sin leads to a loss of saving faith.Jon

So confessing your sins and repenting, that is, turning to God is not part of justification? You can be justified without confessing or repenting?