OK! We believe, teach, and confess that *we are justified by grace alone through faith in the atoning work of Christ Jesus our Savior, and not of ourselves, for it is the gift of God.
Yes, as faith is. As Trent says, nothing, whether faith or works, merits justification/salvation.
Faith and love do not, of necessity, go hand in hand. One can receive the gift of faith without necessarily producing fruit because of it. This is the meaning of the seed that fell on rocky soil or the Parable of the Talents where talents (grace) received was buried by the lazy servant, and the loss of the kingdom was at stake. This, also, is related to why, in the Catholic understanding, salvation is not a one-step event, unless, perhaps, that one step were to happen to end in death at Baptism or perhaps with a less formal, sincere profession of faith as with the thief on the cross. But for those who are given more, more will be demanded (Luke 12:48).
This is why Luther says that faith must be sincere. That without love, faith serves no purpose. The godly life includes not just faith in God, but also love for our fellowman.
I have no dispute with this.
I think you have well-characterized with Luther says in the quote I provided earlier.
Agreed.
Indeed, you cannot have faith or salvation without grace. And we don’t isolate faith: It is by grace, through faith in Christ that one is justified.
What we cannot do is to equate faith with man’s justice-as if that’s all that justice consists of for man, as if that’s all that God desires from us and for us, and this often seems to be the case in some theologies. I also wonder if Luther would fully agree, in good conscience, with St John of the Cross’s statement. Maybe he would.This is why Luther says that faith must be sincere. That without love, faith serves no purpose. The godly life includes not just faith in God, but also love for our fellowman.
I have no dispute with this.
I think you have well-characterized with Luther says in the quote I provided earlier.
Somewhere recently (amybe this thread), I quoted the closing line of the Athanasian Creed; * At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. * When we speak of good works, good in the sight of God, that is, we are speaking of the things we are called to do for our fellow man - what we do in love for our neighbor. Yes, we will be judged by these.
I believe it is a word game. The bible doesn’t say we are justified by faith alone yet you say we are justified by faith alone .What do you do with James 2:24 “A man is justified by works”
IF works are necessary consequences of having faith then faith cannot be alone so why keep saying that?
How does one become a member of the Body of Christ? Only through baptism. You were in fact a psuedo Christian not yet a member of the Body of Christ and not yet justified or sanctified by the waters of baptism.
Welcome to the Catholic side since you believe that justification can be lost. Your view opposes that of Luther who taught justification could only be lost if one stopped believing.
You just said you can lose your “security.” Doesn’t that mean you lost your justification? If you have to get it back, then justification is a process.
So if you lose it how do you get it back and if justification isn’t a life long process that your previous statement doesn’t make any sense to me.
Aren’t works also a gift of grace?
Are you saying that James is talking about works justifying you before men?
OK, but the reason we’ll be judged on our love is because love is what man’s justice consists of.
jrtrent, several times you have referenced .Protestant Theologian Alister McGrath
Here is what Trent says:
We need to better understand what God’s purpose is-and what man’s role/obligation is. God really does want man to be just/righteous/holy/perfect-and not merely “imputedly” so. But He knows that this is possible only in communion with Him. Faith, from man’s side, restores communion with God but it doesn’t guarantee justice by itself, because, as I said in my last post, love is what man’s justice consists of, which is also why the first and greatest commandments happen to be what they are.
But grace precedes it all- the teachings of our faith must be understood in their full context-which includes the perspective of both God’s role and man’s role. The following is also from Trent, session 6:
That’s Paul’s position. Romans 7
Cannot we then conclude that “faith alone” is not sufficient for salvation?
God forgives and cleanses man, but, from there, we’re still to ‘go, and sin no more’ . The power/grace of the New Covenant provides the means to accomplish both-and our justification is only authentic as both are realized.
What is your position?.
Of course I agree that grace precedes it all but once in the state of grace our good works preserve and increase our justification. Good works are gifts of grace.