Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[Third_Day]

Clement also wrote about this:

(Emphasis mine)

Clement also doesn’t say alone.

While Clement said we are justified by faith he also said:

“Let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. “For God,” says [the Scripture], then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking,** being justified by our works**, and not our words.” Clement of Rome First Epistle

 

[Third_Day]

=JonNC;10439780]Paul clearly places justification squarely on grace through faith. No where does he link any other means by which we are justified.

You need to address Romans 2: 6-7 "For God will render to every man according to his works….eternal life.:
And Romans 2: 13 “The doers of the law will be justified”

I think, however, James is responding to those who choose not to do good works, and calls into question their claim of justification. Paul does the same in Galatians.
It is a very important point, however, that Lutherans do recognize the necessity of good works, as are commanded by Christ.

What does Paul mean by the words “Works” and Works of the Law?"

The linked, TD, is an excellent (and short ) article regarding how Paul and James, while seemingly disagree, are actually in agreement.

lutherantheologystudygroup.blogspot.com/2010/10/james-and-paul-on-justification-and.html#!/2010/10/james-and-paul-on-justification-and.html

That article completely misses the mark. Here is a quote from it" "For James, justification means that our righteousness is shown to other people"

That is absolutely false.

James gives us the example of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac. According to the text God was the witness to Abraham’s work not men. The text says, Now I ( God) know that you fear me." It doesn’t say, Now I Isaac know that you fear God." But " Now I God know that you fear me".

God was the witness to Abraham’s work and that is why James can say “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”.

We are justified by our works before God because God is the one working in us to do good works. It is all 100% God grace and our cooperation with that gift of grace.

 

[benjohnson]

Yes, works come from faith but once in the state of grace our good works are also justifying.

The only difference then is that we would say that the good works are evidence of justification.

I noticed you didn’t say “works are also justifying” you said “**good **works are also justifying” - would you not say that the goodness comes from God?

If so, then I think this is one of those cases where Lutherans and Catholic agree on the conclusion, but not the approach to the conclusion.

 

[benjohnson]

Clement also wrote about this:

(Emphasis mine)

Clement also doesn’t say alone.

Consider where the staunch Lutheran position came from - it came form a time when the church seemed to insist that works and paid indulgences came first. We can debate if this was what was being experienced by the parishioners or not, or if it was even doctrine, but this is where the rather strong language of Luther comes from.

But there’s a small chance that some Catholics read into the Lutheran position that we believe in “Once saved, always saved”. We don’t - in our opinion, that isn’t correct.

Here’s where I think we keep butting heads - Lutherans tend to think that grace is a gift from God despite our unworthiness, and we don’t put any man made requirements on that gift. For to do so would turn God’s gift into a reward, or law.

We Lutherans tend to draw a sharp line between Law and Gospel, so this is why we come across as a bit strident in this regard.

 

[Third_Day]

=benjohnson;10442290]The only difference then is that we would say that the good works are evidence of justification.

Good works are evidence that one is cooperating with God’s grace. As long as we cooperate with God’s grace we will remain in the state of justification that we received when we were baptized.

I

noticed you didn’t say “works are also justifying” you said “**good **works are also justifying” - would you not say that the goodness comes from God?

Of course goodness comes from God and In the state of grace all works are “good” works and are pleasing to God who gives us the grace to do those works.

If so, then I think this is one of those cases where Lutherans and Catholic agree on the conclusion, but not the approach to the conclusion.

I think I can agree with that

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Consider where the staunch Lutheran position came from - it came form a time when the church seemed to insist that works and paid indulgences came first. We can debate if this was what was being experienced by the parishioners or not, or if it was even doctrine, but this is where the rather strong language of Luther comes from.

The Catholic Church is truly universal and not limited to the boundaries of a single country. From what I have read Luther’s experience with indulgences and works first theology was found in Germany and Italy.

But there’s a small chance that some Catholics read into the Lutheran position that we believe in “Once saved, always saved”. We don’t - in our opinion, that isn’t correct.

This I am aware of my friend. I am very fond of the Theology of the Cross.

Here’s where I think we keep butting heads - Lutherans tend to think that grace is a gift from God despite our unworthiness, and we don’t put any man made requirements on that gift. For to do so would turn God’s gift into a reward, or law.

There are rewards. However, we must also understand that any and all good comes from God. We see the biggest proclamation of this premise when Jesus rebukes the rich man that called Him “good teacher” and Jesus tells him - “Why do you call me good? Only the Father is good” (I’m paraphrasing here)

However, it’s not because of what we do on our “own”, but what we do with what is given to us from God! Parable of the Talents is the biggest example. Good works are a requirement of the Faith, it simply cannot be separated.

Sadly, most non-Catholics (Not saying Lutherans in the general sense) use the Faith Alone in defiance of any Church authority.

We Lutherans tend to draw a sharp line between Law and Gospel, so this is why we come across as a bit strident in this regard.

Can we escape the natural law? Or the law written into our hearts?

We can run, but we can’t hide

Peace be with you brother, it’s always a pleasure talking (typing) with you.

Jose

 

[JonNC]

Agreed. However Paul didn’t say “alone”

Peace,

Jose

Hi Jose,
If he clearly does not link anything else to justification than grace through faith (yes, faith working through love), isn’t that essentially “only” or “alone”?

Peace also with you, my friend,
Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hi Jose,
If he clearly does not link anything else to justification than grace through faith (yes, faith working through love), isn’t that essentially “only” or “alone”?

Peace also with you, my friend,
Jon

Jon,

We are humans, it is inevitable for us to completely ignore that which our souls thirst for. For many many years, I read it that way.

Paul also writes in 1 Cor 13:
“…and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”

What good is it to be declared justified if I am nothing? Is it profitable for my Faith to be alone? I honestly don’t think so.

I don’t think there is a more meticulous theologian than St. Paul. If he didn’t say alone, who am I to disagree?

Where in Scriptures do we see a Faith alone moment of justification?
I don’t remember seeing this anywhere.

However, where in Scriptures do we see a Faith moment accompanied by an action?
Oh, there’s plenty of them.

Just like Luther said that he couldn’t go against conscience, neither can I my friend. My soul turns if I even try to justify Faith alone.

Always good to interact with you Jon.

Peace,

Jose

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

We are humans, it is inevitable for us to completely ignore that which our souls thirst for. For many many years, I read it that way.

Paul also writes in 1 Cor 13:
“…and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”

What good is it to be declared justified if I am nothing? Is it profitable for my Faith to be alone? I honestly don’t think so.

I don’t think there is a more meticulous theologian than St. Paul. If he didn’t say alone, who am I to disagree?

Where in Scriptures do we see a Faith alone moment of justification?
I don’t remember seeing this anywhere.

However, where in Scriptures do we see a Faith moment accompanied by an action?
Oh, there’s plenty of them.

Just like Luther said that he couldn’t go against conscience, neither can I my friend. My soul turns if I even try to justify Faith alone.

Always good to interact with you Jon.

Peace,

Jose

The interesting thing, Jose, is there is much that I agree with here. For example:

“…and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.”

What purpose does faith and even justification have if we do not love our neighbors as ouselves? If we do not help the least of His children? What kind of faith cold that actually be?

I don’t think there is a more meticulous theologian than St. Paul. If he didn’t say alone, who am I to disagree?
I agree about Paul, yet one wonders, if there is nothing added, what did he intend? If in all his writings he did not say “faith and works justify”, why is it he missed that?

Where in Scriptures do we see a Faith alone moment of justification?
I don’t remember seeing this anywhere.
Maybe I’ve lost something, but I’ve never thought of my justification as a one-moment event. I can’t place a finger on it and say, “there! that is when I was justified!” I know it started when I was Baptism, and it was there when I was confirmed, and its there when I confess and receive absolution, and receive His body and blood.

Just like Luther said that he couldn’t go against conscience, neither can I my friend. My soul turns if I even try to justify Faith alone.
And you know, dear brother, that I have no intent to convince you otherwise. Be strong in your faith, for whatever differences we have, the Spirit works in us both to seek unity and His grace.

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The interesting thing, Jose, is there is much that I agree with here. For example:

What purpose does faith and even justification have if we do not love our neighbors as ouselves? If we do not help the least of His children? What kind of faith cold that actually be?

Indeed!

I agree about Paul, yet one wonders, if there is nothing added, what did he intend? If in all his writings he did not say “faith and works justify”, why is it he missed that?

He didn’t miss anything

Maybe I’ve lost something, but I’ve never thought of my justification as a one-moment event. I can’t place a finger on it and say, “there! that is when I was justified!” I know it started when I was Baptism, and it was there when I was confirmed, and its there when I confess and receive absolution, and receive His body and blood.

My apologies, I didn’t mean to point to a one moment justification. I wanted to point at a moment where Faith was not accompanied by an action. i.e. - Abraham was justified by his faith - Abraham was about to sacrifice his son ---- an action (work) came along with the faith. Noah had faith ---- he built the ark God commanded him. And so forth. The faith of our Fathers is demonstrated with their works (actions).

And you know, dear brother, that I have no intent to convince you otherwise.

Oh I know! I am a witness to your charity and honesty and a recipient of your Christian love!!!

Be strong in your faith, for whatever differences we have, the Spirit works in us both to seek unity and His grace.

Jon

A big !

Jose

 

[ltwin]

Yes we are justified by grace but aren’t our good works also works of grace? God is the one giving us the grace to do good works just as He is giving us the grace to have faith.

God gives us the grace to do good works through faith. There are not two streams of grace that flow into our lives, one stream of faith and another stream of works. There is one stream of grace, the stream whose name is faith. Through this stream, grace flows into us and fills us to overflowing, running over and out of everything that we say and do.

Sorry but you need to answer the question. You are the one claiming that works are a consequence of faith that justifies.

Yes I do claim that.

So how many works must you do to have justifying faith?

This question, based on what we both agree I believe, is not logical. If works are a consequence of having faith, then works do not precede faith. Faith precedes works.

Therefore, it makes no sense to ask, “how many works must you do to have justifying faith.” What we should be asking is, “What kind of faith must you have to do good works.”

James tell us that a dead faith produces no works. A living, true faith will produce works.

Where is “positional justification” found in scripture?

We see positional justification in Scriptures such as Romans 3:22-26,

“the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

And 2 Corinthians 5:21, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

We see both positional justification and progressive sanctification in Ephesians 2:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

You have no idea of how many times Abraham was justified? Don’t you believe he was only justified once? If he was justified more than once that the Catholic position is correct, justification is a process.
Can you answer the question? It can’t be that difficult.

I believe that Abraham was justified by his faith. Abraham being a human being like any other could have experienced a loss of faith at some point in his life at which time he would not have been justified until he had been reconciled to God again.

Absolutely! And WITH faith they are supernatural works and that is why works play a role in our justification. Keeping the commandments is a work.
Question: Can you be saved if you don’t keep the commandments?

You can’t be saved if you lack genuine faith. Without faith we cannot know God let alone love him. Jesus said in John 14:15 “If you love me you will obey what I command.” So, failure to keep the commandments would certainly evidence a lack of genuine faith. Without faith we cannot be saved.

Manifested for what purpose? So that God will see your good works or so that men will see your good works.

Well, obviously everything we do should be for God’s glory.

 

[ltwin]

Then can you explain why James says we are justified by works?

Because he is correcting an erroneous definition of faith. In verse 14 he asks, “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” He goes on to say, “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

James is not focusing on the saving nature of works so much as he is describing the role that works has in a truly saving faith. According to him, a faith that does not manifest itself in work is not only no good and useless but positively dead as a doornail. He is defining the nature of true faith, which is never simply belief alone.

In verse 18, he then gives an example of the erroneous logic he is combating, “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’” This is separating work apart from faith, but James said that this is ultimately impossible because works are part of living faith. The two cannot be separated, “Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

He then discusses Abraham, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works.” Doing good work is faith in action, and it is faith brought to completion. Therefore, because Abraham had faith in God he obeyed God, “and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God.” So James said, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” And I agree because, as James puts it, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.” The grace of God that comes to us by faith is so profound and life transforming that obedience and goodness must result if indeed genuine faith is present.

 

[Third_Day]

=ltwin;10447694]God gives us the grace to do good works through faith.

Then you accept the Catholic position that once in faith good works are not our own but are God’s works.

There are not two streams of grace that flow into our lives, one stream of faith and another stream of works. There is one stream of grace, the stream whose name is faith. Through this stream, grace flows into us and fills us to overflowing, running over and out of everything that we say and do.

Then why can’t we be justified by faith and by works since they both flow from grace?

Isn’t that the reason James says we are justified by works and not by faith only?

How can James say we are justified by works but you can’t say that?

How can Paul say that "God will render to everyman according to his works….eternal life.?

If works don’t justify, along with faith, how can we be rewarded eternal life based on works?

This question, based on what we both agree I believe, is not logical. If works are a consequence of having faith, then works do not precede faith. Faith precedes works.

Of course faith precedes works but that doesn’ t mean that works are not a part of our justification. Faith is the beginning of our justification.
You can’t separate fire and light, fire and heat and you can’t separate faith and works.

Therefore, it makes no sense to ask, “how many works must you do to have justifying faith.” What we should be asking is, “What kind of faith must you have to do good works.”

James says that works “perfect” faith. When you stand before God to be judged will He only see your faith or will he also see the works that perfected your faith? What if the only good work you ever did was work at a soup kitchen every now and then. Is that work enough to prove that you had a genuine faith that justifies?

James tell us that a dead faith produces no works. A living, true faith will produce works.

What works will be produced?
Is keeping the commandments a work?

We see both positional justification

Can you explain in plain english the “positional” part?

and progressive sanctification in Ephesians 2:

If sanctification can be progressive why can’t justification?
Scripture indicates that we have been saved (Galatians 3:8) past tense
“Being justified” Romans 3:24 present tense
“Will be justified” Romans 2:13 future tense

 

[Third_Day]

=ltwin;10447696]Because he is correcting an erroneous definition of faith. In verse 14 he asks, “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” He goes on to say, “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

James is not focusing on the saving nature of works so much as he is describing the role that works has in a truly saving faith

.
The “saving nature of works?” Seems to me you are saying that works saves as does faith.

According to him, a faith that does not manifest itself in work is not only no good and useless but positively dead as a doornail. He is defining the nature of true faith, which is never simply belief alone.

Maybe we are saying the same thing. I just don’t get why you can’t say we are justified by works and not by faith alone. If faith without works is dead then works are necessary.

In verse 18, he then gives an example of the erroneous logic he is combating, “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’” This is separating work apart from faith, but James said that this is ultimately impossible because works are part of living faith. The two cannot be separated, “Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Amen

Doing good work is faith in action, and it is faith brought to completion. Therefore, because Abraham had faith in God he obeyed God, “and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God.” So James said, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” And I agree because, as James puts it, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.” The grace of God that comes to us by faith is so profound and life transforming that obedience and goodness must result if indeed genuine faith is present.

Don’t your Protestant friends consider you more Catholic than Protestant? The Protestants I know completely dismiss works. In fact they would say that works oppose grace and are filthy rags in God’s eyes.

 

[Publisher]

.
The “saving nature of works?” Seems to me you are saying that works saves as does faith.

Maybe we are saying the same thing. I just don’t get why you can’t say we are justified by works and not by faith alone. If faith without works is dead then works are necessary.

Amen

Don’t your Protestant friends consider you more Catholic than Protestant? The Protestants I know completely dismiss works. In fact they would say that works oppose grace and are filthy rags in God’s eyes.

Strange Protestant acquaintences I must say. I believe the “works as filthy rags” quote is understood by ALL Protestants I know to mean…works cannot make one right before God…if all our righteousness all our good works done were able to be added together they still would fall short of God’s righteousness standard. Christ alone IS our Righteousness…no work no matter how noble and good can bring salvation…we cannot work our way into God’s grace…it is a free gift thru faith, not in our works but in the Work of Christ on our behalf.

Works are what we do BECAUSE of God’s work in us…good works occur BECAUSE of the Holy Spirit working in our lives…one cannot be right with God and NOT DO GOOD WORKS…good works are part of WHO we are in Christ…new creations…we share in His nature, and as he went about doing good BECAUSE of who He was…so too we will do good works because we have not only been imputed Christ’s righteous, but imparted His righteousness by the Holy Spirit…we do good works becuase we are God’s People…we do not do works to BECOME God’s People.

 

[SteveVH]

Strange Protestant acquaintences I must say. I believe the “works as filthy rags” quote is understood by ALL Protestants I know to mean…works cannot make one right before God…if all our righteousness all our good works done were able to be added together they still would fall short of God’s righteousness standard. Christ alone IS our Righteousness…no work no matter how noble and good can bring salvation…we cannot work our way into God’s grace…it is a free gift thru faith, not in our works but in the Work of Christ on our behalf.

Works are what we do BECAUSE of God’s work in us…good works occur BECAUSE of the Holy Spirit working in our lives…one cannot be right with God and NOT DO GOOD WORKS…good works are part of WHO we are in Christ…new creations…we share in His nature, and as he went about doing good BECAUSE of who He was…so too we will do good works because we have not only been imputed Christ’s righteous, but imparted His righteousness by the Holy Spirit…we do good works becuase we are God’s People…we do not do works to BECOME God’s People.

And yet our works are the measure of our faith and it is by our works that we will be judged. Neither faith nor works, without the other, will get us anywhere. This is really a self evident truth. Can one be a musician if he doesn’t play any music? Can one be an auto mechanic without ever working on an engine? Can one have faith without living that faith in their daily lives through their actions? Works are essential for without them we have no faith.

 

[joe370]

Publisher;10450423]Strange Protestant acquaintences I must say. I believe the “works as filthy rags” quote is understood by ALL Protestants I know to mean…works cannot make one right before God…if all our righteousness all our good works done were able to be added together they still would fall short of God’s righteousness standard. Christ alone IS our Righteousness…no work no matter how noble and good can bring salvation…we cannot work our way into God’s grace…it is a free gift thru faith, not in our works but in the Work of Christ on our behalf.

All true. And yet, “faith without works is dead.”

“In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

Works are what we do BECAUSE of God’s work in us…good works occur BECAUSE of the Holy Spirit working in our lives…one cannot be right with God and NOT DO GOOD WORKS…good works are part of WHO we are in Christ…new creations…we share in His nature, and as he went about doing good BECAUSE of who He was…so too we will do good works because we have not only been imputed Christ’s righteous, but imparted His righteousness by the Holy Spirit…we do good works becuase we are God’s People…we do not do works to BECOME God’s People.

All Christians belonging to the Catholic Church agree with you.

 

[Publisher]

All true. And yet, “faith without works is dead.”

“In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

All Christians belonging to the Catholic Church agree with you.

And yet the caricature painted by Catholics about Protestants concerning faith alone…still occurs…and none to rarely:shrug:

 

[joe370]

And yet the caricature painted by Catholics about Protestants concerning faith alone…still occurs…and none to rarely:shrug:

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am speaking as a former Protestant. Most of my family is non-Catholic.

 

[ltwin]

Then you accept the Catholic position that once in faith good works are not our own but are God’s works.

That’s not a “Catholic position.” It’s a Christian position as far as I’m concerned.

Then why can’t we be justified by faith and by works since they both flow from grace?

Isn’t that the reason James says we are justified by works and not by faith only?

How can James say we are justified by works but you can’t say that?

I can say what James said. However, it is what people who are not James say that I have trouble agreeing with. And it is the implications of what those people say that worries and concerns me.

THow can Paul say that "God will render to everyman according to his works….eternal life.?

If works don’t justify, along with faith, how can we be rewarded eternal life based on works?

I agree completely with Romans 2: 6:11, which says:

“He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.”

Of course, we have to obey the truth, do good, and avoid evil. If we do not obey the truth, do not do good, and embrace evil how can anyone of us even dare to claim that we possess faith in the Way, the Truth, and the Life, who is infinitely good and completely void of anything evil and all unrighteousness? It is faith in Christ that empowers us to obey the truth, do good, and avoid evil.

James says that works “perfect” faith. When you stand before God to be judged will He only see your faith or will he also see the works that perfected your faith?

I think we’ve established that we both agree that you can’t separate works from faith. My point of view is that works will always be a part and component of true faith.

What if the only good work you ever did was work at a soup kitchen every now and then. Is that work enough to prove that you had a genuine faith that justifies?

Are you asking would it prove justifying faith to me or would it prove justifying faith to God? I can’t answer either question. No one has to prove to my satisfaction that they have justifying faith, and I do not know the mind of God who searches and knows the secret things of the heart. The Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

What works will be produced?

To put it simply, we should be imitators of Jesus. We are after all disciples of Christ.

Is keeping the commandments a work?

Yes.

Can you explain in plain english the “positional” part?

Paul says that God “made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith.”

Therefore, by grace through faith, we are already “raised up with him” and seated “with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Paul continues, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” This describes sanctification.

If sanctification can be progressive why can’t justification?
Scripture indicates that we have been saved (Galatians 3:8) past tense
“Being justified” Romans 3:24 present tense
“Will be justified” Romans 2:13 future tense

Actually going by verb tense doesn’t really say much. Romans 3:24 in my translation says “are justified.” So there ya go. When it comes to Romans 2:13, that isn’t a problem for me. I don’t adhere to Once Save Always Saved theology. I have hope in Christ that I am justified by grace through faith in Him, but there is always a possibility that I could lose my faith and reject God. So, until death no one can think they are beyond damnation.

However, that does not mean that justification is a process. It means that justification depends on our position in relation to Christ. We are either in Christ or not in Christ.