Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

[ltwin]

The “saving nature of works?” Seems to me you are saying that works saves as does faith.

No. I’m saying that as I read that portion of James, he does not actually focus on how works save but on how works relate to faith.

Maybe we are saying the same thing. I just don’t get why you can’t say we are justified by works and not by faith alone. If faith without works is dead then works are necessary.

For me, it is a matter of procession. When I read scripture, I see that good works always proceed from true faith. Therefore, faith is what justifies us, and we avoid any confusion over “earning” salvation. And, before someone thinks I’m picking on Catholics, the whole “earning salvation” is not something I’m directing at Catholics. I don’t know enough Catholics to even make such an accusation. However, I do know Protestants who believe they are doing God a favor because they do what they are supposed to do to begin with. And then I know Protestants who don’t do anything they are supposed to but think God still should be impressed, so I see both sides of the dilemma.

Don’t your Protestant friends consider you more Catholic than Protestant? The Protestants I know completely dismiss works. In fact they would say that works oppose grace and are filthy rags in God’s eyes.

You need to get out more. There is so much more to Protestantism yet to see; we’ve got more flavors than Baskin-Robbins!

Pentecostals have this nice little phrase: “Saved, Sanctified, and Filled with the Holy Spirit.” The “saved” refers to justification and the new birth (justification is the legal act and the new birth is the creative act of God). Sanctified refers to the purification of motives and the release of the graces planted in regeneration. It is a growth in grace. And Spirit-filled refers to being empowered by God for service and ministry.

Our goal is to be like Jesus who was sinless and who walked in the power of the Spirit. While none of us can ever be as perfect as Jesus, we should be moving in that direction. If we are not moving forward in God then we are moving backward.

The Assemblies of God, a Pentecostal denomination, states in their Fundamental Truths:

Sanctification is an act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God.

Romans 12:1,2 [KJV/NIV]
1 Thessalonians 5:23 [KJV/NIV]
Hebrews 13:12 [KJV/NIV]

The Scriptures teach a life of “holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.”

Hebrews 12:14 [KJV/NIV]

By the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to obey the command: “Be ye holy, for I am holy.”

1 Peter 1:15,16 [KJV/NIV]

Sanctification is realized in the believer by recognizing his identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, and by the faith reckoning daily upon the fact of that union, and by offering every faculty continually to the dominion of the Holy Spirit.

Another Pentecostal denomination, The Church of the Foursquare Gospel states:

We believe that having been cleansed by the precious blood of Jesus Christ and having received the witness of the Holy Spirit at conversion, it is the will of God that we be sanctified daily and become partakers of His holiness; growing constantly stronger in faith, power, prayer, love and service, first as babies desiring the sincere milk of the Word; then as dear children walking humbly, seeking diligently the hidden life, where self decreases and Christ increases; then as strong men having on the whole armor of God, marching forth to new conquests in His name beneath His blood-stained banner, ever living a patient, sober, unselfish, godly life that will be a true reflection of the Christ within.

 

[benjohnson]

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am speaking as a former Protestant. Most of my family is non-Catholic.

If your protestant family and church were telling you that works were incompatible with faith, then I’m glad you found a vastly more orthodox church.

Personally, I don’t understand how anybody could even begin to think that a resortative Grace would not compel us to respond with our best attempts at doing the Lord’s work.

 

[bbbeatt]

In defense of protestant theology, I dont think they mean nothing physical is neccessary. I believe Martin Luther even stated that works are neccessary for the Christian, but they are not what saves them. They say, it is faith alone that saves them and then faith is nothing without works.
To me, its not as negative as you are making it seem. But I also think it should prompt them to think deaper about our participation in our salvation. That is what protestantism is so affraid to think…that we participate in our actual salvation. As though it will take away some of Gods glory. Or more importantly, that it means that we deserved to be saved. These fears are not rationally based. They are excuses.
Catholics who walk their faith are in the frame of heart that we are saved by “Grace Alone” and through faith and works. Protestants could also use their own accusations that their faith merited salvation as though they would be faithfull without Jesus’ sacrifice. But we dont play that game. It really is misunderstanding for protestantism. From their own view point. For instance, if we understood our teaching as they believe it, then we would not believe it either.
The reality of justification through faith and works is known because our faith is always challenged and attacked. We must fulfill our faith in works. We must work out our salvation. True faith does understand that the works are from God and done through us. But not as though we are robots. We give consent of will, and effort to bring God into our life. We pick up and carry our crosses. Justification is not a one time deal. It is our life’s test…til the end.
I think a large motive in creating the faith alone doctrine was the desire of assurance of salvation. This, then leads to a host of compromises and underminds anything the Church teaches, if it is too difficult to understand, or seems contrary to their understanding.

Remember what the works of the spirit are. The first work is repentance. And also forgiving others. These two are neccessary for salvation. Its not WHY God chose to redeem us, but it is How God redeems us. He chose to redeem us out of His goodness and grace alone.

God Bless,
Michael

Michael,
If I understood you, I agree with your statement. Could you clarify this statement you made: “we are saved by “Grace Alone” and through faith and works”. I’m Protestant but don’t accept much of the doctrine handed down by Calvin and Luther. Ephesians 2:8-9 states "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast. " NRSVC.

When you say we are saved by works, do you mean that we must do this or that to have eternal life?.. miss one and I’m damned, fail to repent of every sin and I’m damned… Or are you saying that works affect the degree to which I enter salvation… or something else?

I’m not arguing. I am interested in the Catholic position. Take is as humor… But, I’m searching to find a group that I agree with.

 

[Third_Day]

=Publisher;10450423]Strange Protestant acquaintences I must say. I believe the “works as filthy rags” quote is understood by ALL Protestants I know to mean…works cannot make one right before God…

But what if good works come from God? Are they still filthy rags?
If works, done solely under grace, cannot make one right before God then what does James mean when he says that we are justified by works?

Works are what we do BECAUSE of God’s work in us…

Exactly! So how can works be filthy rags when it is God who is working?.
We are simply saying yes to His grace.

.

so too we will do good works because we have not only been imputed Christ’s righteous, but imparted His righteousness by the Holy Spirit.

.
Imputed righteousness isn’t biblical or part of historical Christianity.
Do you, as a Quaker, believe that you were declared to be justified by God while still a wicked sinner?

…

 

[Third_Day]

=ltwin;10452528] You need to get out more. There is so much more to Protestantism yet to see; we’ve got more flavors than Baskin-Robbins!

You are probably right. The only Protestants that I come in contact with are either Baptists or from a non-denom bible church. Those come to my door evangelizing quite often. Can’t say I have ever talked to a Pentecostal.

Therefore, by grace through faith, we are already “raised up with him” and seated “with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

I can say that I can agree with everything you said in your last two posts. The above phrase is confusing. You said you don’t believe in once saved always saved yet you say you are “already” raised up with Him and in a heavenly place.
I can say, as a Catholic, that I have the moral assurance that if I die in the state of grace I will be saved but I could never make the above statement as if I am already assured of a place in heaven.

You obviously don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Christ and are therefore comfortable where you are. Do you believe that as a Pentecostal you have the fullness of truth as revealed by Christ?
Have you always been Pentecostal or something else?

 

[ltwin]

I can say that I can agree with everything you said in your last two posts. The above phrase is confusing. You said you don’t believe in once saved always saved yet you say you are “already” raised up with Him and in a heavenly place.

I’m just quoting the Bible. And I don’t believe in once saved always saved. No one can be 100 percent sure that they will “die in a state of grace” as Catholics would say. I know I have faith in Christ today, but can I say that I will have faith 10 years from now? Of course not.

I can say, as a Catholic, that I have the moral assurance that if I die in the state of grace I will be saved but I could never make the above statement as if I am already assured of a place in heaven.

That’s not what I’m saying, and it wasn’t what I was reading into that text. I was making the point that through faith we already share in Christ’s atonement and are “made alive together with” Him, thus positional justification. Paul uses the present tense. He doesn’t say we will be, he says we are through faith. This is the current reality for those who are joined to Christ through faith.

You obviously don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Christ and are therefore comfortable where you are. Do you believe that as a Pentecostal you have the fullness of truth as revealed by Christ?

I believe in the Full Gospel: Jesus is Savior, Baptizer in the Spirit, Healer, and Soon Coming King. Do I believe that any church or denomination are free from the possibility of error? No, I do not. All bodies of believers are made up of people, and therefore they may err in their living, manner of ceremonies, and in matters of faith.

Have you always been Pentecostal or something else?

Always been Pentecostal. My father was a preacher in our church and sat on the deacon board. My mom taught Sunday school and was children’s church director for years. I was dedicated as an infant in our Pentecostal church.

 

[joe370]

If your protestant family and church were telling you that works were incompatible with faith, then I’m glad you found a vastly more orthodox church.

Personally, I don’t understand how anybody could even begin to think that a resortative Grace would not compel us to respond with our best attempts at doing the Lord’s work.

Agreed. When I quote the following passages, certain family members think that I made it up… as if those verses were not found in their bible.

“faith without works is dead.”

“In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

 

[Miriam1947]

snip . . .

Always been Pentecostal. My father was a preacher in our church and sat on the deacon board. My mom taught Sunday school and was children’s church director for years. I was dedicated as an infant in our Pentecostal church.

Itwin, have you been baptized?

 

[ltwin]

Itwin, have you been baptized?

Yes.

 

[Miriam1947]

Yes.

Good.

 

[ltwin]

Good.

Did you say on another thread you were Pentecostal before your conversion to Catholicism?

Actually I think I’m confusing you with another poster! But feel free to answer anyway!

Did you feel like what you learned about the relationship between faith and works was radically different from what you were taught in Catholicism? What were the differences and implications that you saw for ways that Protestants and Catholics frame this issue? If you don’t mind?

 

[Miriam1947]

Did you say on another thread you were Pentecostal before your conversion to Catholicism?

Actually I think I’m confusing you with another poster! But feel free to answer anyway!

Did you feel like what you learned about the relationship between faith and works was radically different from what you were taught in Catholicism? What were the differences and implications that you saw for ways that Protestants and Catholics frame this issue? If you don’t mind?

No, I was never Pentecostal. I had attended a couple of those churches and was extremely uncomfortable with the experience. It felt very manipulative to me.

Most of my life was spent not going to church at all. It was an invitation by a Catholic that led me to attend RCIA. (Which I put off for a year because I knew one thing about Catholicism and that is that you must go to church every single Sunday. And I wasn’t sure that I wanted to make that commitment. You know, like give God one whole hour a week. :bigyikes

I was baptized into the Catholic Church on Easter Vigil 2008. Now I try to go to daily Mass as often as possible and of course every single Sunday and holy days of obligation.

There was never an issue for me about faith and works since it makes sense and as unchurched as I was, I still knew some things about the Bible.

 

[bbbeatt]

That salvation comes by grace, through FAITH ALONE is proved by the following:

“’So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I BY MY WORKS will show you my faith… You see that a person is JUSTIFIED by works and not by faith alone… so faith without works is also dead.’” James 2:17-26 NRSVCE

Webster’s Dictionary: JUSTIFY = TO PROVE

So, James is saying that faith is proved by works… LIVING faith will be accompanied by works.

“For by grace you have been SAVED through FAITH, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8 NRSVCE

Paul explains that SALVATION comes through faith, NOT works. James explains that LIVING faith is ACCOMPANIED by works.

One who is saved will have works but is saved through faith, not through the works.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. John 3:16 NRSVCE

 

[Third_Day]

=bbbeatt;10456312]That salvation comes by grace, through FAITH ALONE is proved by the following:

“’So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I BY MY WORKS will show you my faith… You see that a person is JUSTIFIED by works and not by faith alone… so faith without works is also dead.’” James 2:17-26 NRSVCE

Webster’s Dictionary: JUSTIFY = TO PROVE

So, James is saying that** faith is proved by works**… LIVING faith will be accompanied by works.

Proved to whom…God?
James gives the example of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac.
Who was the witness to Abraham’s work. Men or God?

Can you answer this?
Let us say that after Abraham was stopped by an angel from sacrificing Isaac he came upon a man who is in need of food and Abraham looked at him and told the man to go in peace without giving the man what he needed. Would Abraham still be saved by his faith alone?

One who is saved will have works but is saved through faith, not through the works.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. John 3:16

What if someone who is “saved” backslides into adultery. Is he still saved by his faith alone?

 

[Third_Day]

=ltwin;10454316] That’s not what I’m saying, and it wasn’t what I was reading into that text. I was making the point that through faith we already share in Christ’s atonement and are “made alive together with” Him, thus positional justification. Paul uses the present tense. **He doesn’t say we will be, he says we are through faith. This is the current reality for those who are joined to Christ through faith. **

Are we joined to Christ through faith alone or faith and baptism?.
Doesn’t scripture say, "For as many of you were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."Galatians 3:27
Doesn’t Paul say we **will be saved **( Future tense) but only as through fire in 1 Cor. 3:15

I believe in the Full Gospel: Jesus is Savior, Baptizer in the Spirit, Healer, and Soon Coming King. Do I believe that any church or denomination are free from the possibility of error? No, I do not. All bodies of believers are made up of people, and therefore they may err in their living, manner of ceremonies, and in matters of faith.

Didn’t Jesus tells his apostles, the foundation of the Church, that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth?
Didn’t he tell the apostles that He would be with them always?
Didn’t the apostles hold the office of bishop and then ordain others to that office?

 

[bbbeatt]

Proved to whom…God?
James gives the example of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac.
Who was the witness to Abraham’s work. Men or God?

Can you answer this?
Let us say that after Abraham was stopped by an angel from sacrificing Isaac he came upon a man who is in need of food and Abraham looked at him and told the man to go in peace without giving the man what he needed. Would Abraham still be saved by his faith alone?

What if someone who is “saved” backslides into adultery. Is he still saved by his faith alone?

God was the witness. I don’t see what point you are making here. If Abraham told the man to go in peace without giving the man what he needed… assuming Abraham was able to help, it would be a sin, harming Abraham’s fellowship with God but would not result in damnation… because SALVATION IS NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

“For by grace you have been SAVED through FAITH, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8 NRSVCE

Eph 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

What if someone who is “saved” backslides into adultery. Is he still saved by his faith alone?

It is hard for me to imagine that one, having tasted the Holy Spirit, would commit physical adultery. Christ said to lust in ones heart amounted to adultery. Again, Ephesians 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS. So, he does not move into a state of eternal damnation in his act of adultery, whether by lust or physical adultery.

I look forward to hearing from you again.

“Lord of Heaven and Earth, please reveal your self to us… Third Day and myself.”

 

[fhansen]

God was the witness. I don’t see what point you are making here. If Abraham told the man to go in peace without giving the man what he needed… assuming Abraham was able to help, it would be a sin, harming Abraham’s fellowship with God but would not result in damnation… because SALVATION IS NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

“For by grace you have been SAVED through FAITH, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8 NRSVCE

Eph 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

What if someone who is “saved” backslides into adultery. Is he still saved by his faith alone?

It is hard for me to imagine that one, having tasted the Holy Spirit, would commit physical adultery. Christ said to lust in ones heart amounted to adultery. Again, Ephesians 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS. So, he does not move into a state of eternal damnation in his act of adultery, whether by lust or physical adultery.

I look forward to hearing from you again.

“Lord of Heaven and Earth, please reveal your self to us… Third Day and myself.”

IMO it’s dangerous when we’ve arrived at a theology that ignores sin-considering that sin is what caused all the mess and separated man from God to begin with! Somehow I think satan would be quite happy with that.

 

[joe370]

God was the witness. I don’t see what point you are making here. If Abraham told the man to go in peace without giving the man what he needed… assuming Abraham was able to help, it would be a sin, harming Abraham’s fellowship with God but would not result in damnation… because SALVATION IS NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

“For by grace you have been SAVED through FAITH, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8 NRSVCE

Eph 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS.

What if someone who is “saved” backslides into adultery. Is he still saved by his faith alone?

It is hard for me to imagine that one, having tasted the Holy Spirit, would commit physical adultery. Christ said to lust in ones heart amounted to adultery. Again, Ephesians 2:8 explicitly states that salvation is NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS. So, he does not move into a state of eternal damnation in his act of adultery, whether by lust or physical adultery.

I look forward to hearing from you again.

“Lord of Heaven and Earth, please reveal your self to us… Third Day and myself.”

The Catholic Church agrees with you!!! Do you agree with the following passages:

“faith without works is dead.”

“In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

If yes, then the discussion should be concluded, for we are all on the same page.

 

[fred_conty]

bbbeatt,

From what has been said so far, it seems that many believe in faith alone but express the connection of works variously:

1. Faith is all you need and you are saved. Works have no part at all in being saved.
2. Faith is all you need if you only blackslide a little, otherwise the person never had faith to begin with and will not be saved.
3. Faith is all you need if you don’t blackslide a lot, otherwise the person never had faith to begin with and will not be saved.
4. Faith is what you need, but works demonstrate that the person has a living faith, otherwise the person’s faith is dead and the person will not be saved.

The catholic position is closest to #4.

Faith is what you need, but works are needed for a living faith, otherwise the person’s soul dies, and the person will not be saved.

If we count these positions of faith, there are five if we also include the catholic one.

Now who is to say who is correct, for all of them are based on the bible, so it is claimed.

There are five positions not because there are five different bibles, but because there are 5 different rendentions of what one bible means. Isn’t that telling us something? That a person is in big trouble if they don’t get this right?

 

[bbbeatt]

The Catholic Church agrees with you!!! Do you agree with the following passages:

“faith without works is dead.”

“In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.”

If yes, then the discussion should be concluded, for we are all on the same page.

Joe370
Before I begin I pray: “Father in Heaven, please reveal yourself to us. Amen”

I do believe in those passages. But this is very important. I am not sure that we all agree. If any disagree with the following, please post your reasons along with scriptures.

ADDING CONDITIONS OF SALVATION RESULTS IN LOSS OF SALVATION

’ Then certain individuals came down (to Galatia) from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ’ Acts 15:1 (Parenthesis mine)

The following passages are from the book of Galatians, written by Paul to the churches at Galatia:

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel… to pervert the gospel of Christ.’ Galatians 1:7

“we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ.” Galatians 2:16

“all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse’ Galatians 3:10

“no one is justified before God by the law” Galatians 3:11

“if you let yourselves be circumcised (believing that circumcision is a requirement for justification or salvation), Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the entire law. 4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace… You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? Galatians 5:1-7 (Parenthesis mine)

Explanation: Paul told the Galatians that they would LOSE THEIR SALVATION if they added obedience to the law as a condition of salvation. Circumcision was not wrong. Paul was circumcised and he had Timothy circumcised. To pursue salvation by keeping the law… instead of salvation by living faith… means, that one must be true to the plan of salvation they chose. If salvation by keeping the law is pursued, then the entire law must be kept (which is impossible).

Obedience will arise out of living faith but adding obedience to the Law as a requirement for salvation results in the loss of salvation.

Salvation by Law = Salvation by works. So, adding any work as a condition for salvation to the sole condition of Living Faith, results in loss of salvation.