Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

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Lord of Heaven and Earth, bless Third Day and all who read your precious words with the greatest of joys in your presence! Amen

In seeking to establish that SALVATION is by faith and works instead of that kind of faith which produces good works… here are some passages you must deal with:

All quotes are from New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.

Romans 10:13
For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Wow, that’s a lot of out of context references. I’m not big on verse wars because a single written line has no context.

Like your last one, I hear a lot of people call on the name of the Lord daily, and it’s pretty obvious they are not doing so in the context of Romans 10 teachings.

A few thoughts / questions to ponder…

God threw out of paradise over 1 sin (a man made thing) his first creations imaged after himself (Ultimate Love).

Why would I be excused from my bad thoughts and actions today considering God is the same God yesterday, today, tomorrow? He exists outside of time.

Is my sin not just like theirs, or most likely, worse?

So since I can’t save myself: Where do I go to receive the Graces most definitely needed?

Why would God come to Earth, die, rise and leave, just to prove he exists?

He didn’t, he did other things that he left behind. Notably the creation of the Church and the institution of the sacraments.

A sacrament being the vehicle that delivers Grace, I now know where to go.

All the other theological stuff, I can pray, read, watch, listen and learn to deepen my relationship with God (Faith).
 
Wow, that’s a lot of out of context references. I’m not big on verse wars because a single written line has no context.

Like your last one, I hear a lot of people call on the name of the Lord daily, and it’s pretty obvious they are not doing so in the context of Romans 10 teachings.

A few thoughts / questions to ponder…

God threw out of paradise over 1 sin (a man made thing) his first creations imaged after himself (Ultimate Love).

Why would I be excused from my bad thoughts and actions today considering God is the same God yesterday, today, tomorrow? He exists outside of time.

Is my sin not just like theirs, or most likely, worse?

So since I can’t save myself: Where do I go to receive the Graces most definitely needed?

Why would God come to Earth, die, rise and leave, just to prove he exists?

He didn’t, he did other things that he left behind. Notably the creation of the Church and the institution of the sacraments.

A sacrament being the vehicle that delivers Grace, I now know where to go.

All the other theological stuff, I can pray, read, watch, listen and learn to deepen my relationship with God (Faith).
Lord of Heaven and Earth, send the saving power of your salvation into all the earth! Amen

You have responded to the words of God with words of man. “Thus says the Lord:
Cursed are those who trust in mere mortals” Jeremiah 17:5

Here is the context of Romans 10:13 from the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.

The word of God

Romans 9:31 through 10:1-14
Israel, who did strive for the righteousness that is based on the law, did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why not? Because THEY DID NOT STRIVE FOR IT ON THE BASIS OF FAITH, BUT AS IF IT WERE BASED ON WORKS. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “See, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will make them fall, and whoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not be put to shame.”

Brothers and sisters,my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be SAVED. I can testify that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened. For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and SEEKING TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN, they have not submitted to GOD’S righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES.

Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that “the person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that COMES FROM FAITH says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say?

“The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart” (that is, THE WORD OF FAITH that we proclaim); because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For one BELIEVES WITH THE HEART and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is SAVED. The scripture says, “No one who BELIEVES IN HIM will be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13 For, “EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED”

14 BUT HOW ARE THEY TO CALL ON THE ONE ON WHOM THEY HAVE NOT BELIEVED? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15 And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Romans 9:31 through 10:1-14

Faith and salvation are in the context throughout. Here is the passage again: “EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED”. It does not say we are saved BECAUSE we call on the Lord. The next sentence explains it. “BUT HOW ARE THEY TO CALL ON THE ONE ON WHOM THEY HAVE NOT BELIEVED?” v 14. Calling on the Lord is proof that they BELIEVE. Confessing with the mouth is also proof of faith. It is the faith that saves, not works.

" For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

“he saved us, NOT BECAUSE OF ANY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Titus 3:5

Salvation comes “THROUGH FAITH… NOT THE RESULT OF WORKS” (Ephesians & Titus)

The second paragraph of the Romans passage states “For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and SEEKING TO ESTABLISH THEIR OWN, they have not submitted to GOD’S righteousness.

They were seeking to establish their own righteousness BY WORKS. (First paragraph)

May God bless you richly with God’s truth. Please respond with comments from the word of God rather than the logic of man. “For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom” 1 Cor 1:25

You will find God’s truth quickly by reading the gospel of John as many of the passages I quoted come from John. You can quickly take in many passages in context. Before you read, come into God’s presence by faith. Seek HIM in the scriptures. Again… May God Bless You!
 
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Please follow the forum rules.
 
…we are NOT saved by works of righteousness” is inconsistent with “we ARE saved by works and faith”.
Why? We are not saved by works of righteousness - ALONE. And we are not saved by faith - ALONE. If we have no faith our works are useless and if we have no works our faith is useless. It is both, not either or.
 
So you are not Saved by Faith Alone! It’s nice to know you agree that Faith Alone is a False Doctrine.
Well, if I’m a heretic for believing in this “false doctrine”, at least I’m in good company:

Clement of Rome (c. 30-100): “And we [Christians], too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (Clement Alexandria. Epistle to the Corinthians.)

Justin Martyr (d. 165) in his Dialogue with Trypho: “No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer . . . are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account.” (Justin Martyr. Dialogue with Trypho.)

Didymus the Blind (c. 313-398): “. . . a person is saved by grace, not by works but by faith. There should be no doubt but that faith saves and then lives by doing its own works, so that the works which are added to salvation by faith are not those of the law but a different kind of thing altogether." (Didymus the Blind. Commentary on James, 2:26b)

Hilary of Poitiers (c 315-67) on Matthew 20:7: “Wages cannot be considered as a gift, because they are due to work, but God has given free grace to all men by the justification of faith." (Finch, George. A Sketch of the Romish Controversy. pp. 230)

Basil of Caesarea (329-379): “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.” (Chemnitz. Examination of the Council of Trent. 1:505.)

Ambrose (c. 339-97): “Therefore let no one boast of his works, because no one can be justified by his works; but he who is just receives it as a gift, because he is justified by the washing of regeneration. It is faith, therefore, which delivers us by the blood of Christ, because blessed is he whose sins are forgiven, and to whom pardon is granted.” (Finch. A Sketch of the Romish Controversy. pp. 220.)

Jerome (347-420) on Romans 10:3: “God justifies by faith alone.” (Deus ex sola fide justificat). (Jerome. Epistolam Ad Romanos. Caput X, v. 3, PL 30:692D)

Chrysostom (349-407): For Scripture says that faith has saved us. Put better: Since God willed it, faith has saved us. Now in what case, tell me, does faith save without itself doing anything at all? Faith’s workings themselves are a gift of God, lest anyone should boast. What then is Paul saying? Not that God has forbidden works but that he has forbidden us to be justified by works. No one, Paul says, is justified by works, precisely in order that the grace and benevolence of God may become apparent."(Chrysostom. Homily on Ephesians. 4.2.9…)

Augustine (354-430): If Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified? . . . Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:3; Gen. 15:6). Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification. (Augustine. Expositions of the Psalms 1-32. Exposition 2 of Psalm 31.)

Augustine (354-430): “When someone believes in him who justifies the impious, that faith is reckoned as justice to the believer, as David too declares that person blessed whom God has accepted and endowed with righteousness, independently of any righteous actions (Rom 4:5-6). What righteousness is this? The righteousness of faith, preceded by no good works, but with good works as its consequence." (Augustine. Expositions of the Psalms 1-32. Exposition 2 of Psalm 31.)

Ambrosiaster (4th century), on Rom. 3:24: “They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”

Cyril of Alexandria (412-444): For we are justified by faith, not by works of the law, as Scripture says (Gal. 2:16). By faith in whom, then, are we justified? Is it not in him who suffered death according to the flesh for our sake? Is it not in one Lord Jesus Christ?" (Russell, Norman. Against Nestorius (Cyril of Alexandria). pp. 165.)
 
What works did the thief on the cross do?
We are initially saved by faith alone and given a time span that is likely a different and unknown period for each individual to which faith is all that is required for salvation. Read Mat. 25:14-30. However, to remain in a state of grace/salvation one must start to become Christ like:developing and putting to practice qualities from a Christ like love, such as, chairity, kindness, forgiving, slow to anger, and a bringer and teacher of God’s word to others… Of course I am speaking of those of us who have reached the age of reason. Those who have never encountered Christ I personelly believe, at this point in time, they will be jugded on the love or hatred they harbored within their hearts, throughout their walk on earth. Those who have not yet reached the age of reason I personelly believe, at this point in time, that they are safe in the care of the Father. Our Lord and God.
 
I dont think the Church tells us we are saved BECAUSE of faith and works, but THROUGH faith and works are we saved.

The thief on the cross had baptism of desire. He repented in His heart! This is the first work of the Spirit! Conversion. The Church does not say there are a certain number of good works that one must do. What are the works the Church is saying are neccessary? Works of the Spirit, beginning with repentence, which is acknowledging our faults, foolishness and that we actually deserve to be cast from God and all His blessings and life! “If we say we are without sin, our sin remains.”

How this is misinterpreted by accusers of the Church is difficult to understand sometimes. They are so quick to find the good meaning in biblical passages that are misinterpreted by nonbelievers, but then do the same to Catholics. Why?
 
Making a comparison to the thief on the cross is the biggest secularist view of salvation.

Why compare ourselves or others with what somebody else has been blessed/damned with?

Seriously, that just sounds like my little kids… Daaaad, Jimmy is eating goldfish crackers, how come I can’t?.. Please…

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Jonah 2:9
But I with the voice of thanksgiving
will sacrifice to thee;
what I have vowed I will pay.
Deliverance (Salvation) belongs to the Lord!”

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Romans 11:34
“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”

It is up to God to save and to give mercy. Christ gave commandments that we are compelled to follow.

Are you the thief on the cross? No — move along.

Where does it say in the Bible that God has to give you the same thing another one was given?

Isaiah 29:16
16 You turn things upside down!
Shall the potter be regarded as the clay;
that the thing made should say of its maker,
“He did not make me”;
or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?

Isaiah 45:9
9 “Woe to him who strives with his Maker,
an earthen vessel with the potter![a]
Does the clay say to him who fashions it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’?

Jeremiah 18:6
6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? says the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

Romans 9:21
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?

We are all acountable for our own actions and on what we do with the “talents” we have been given. Parable of the talents anyone?

I don’t know about others… but I do NOT want to be in the same place as the guy that didn’t do anything with the talent he was given. :eek:
 
That “man is justified by faith without the works of the Law,” was not rightly understood, because Paul by “the works of the Law” meant the works of the Mosaic law, which was for the Jews; which we also clearly see from his words to Peter; whom he rebuked for judaizing, when yet he knew that “no one is justified by the works of the Law” (Galatians 2:14-16); also, that he distinguishes between the law of faith and the law of works; and between Jews and Gentiles, or circumcision and uncircumcision, meaning by circumcision, Judaism, as everywhere else; and likewise from his summing up with these words: Do we then abrogate the law through faith? Not so, but we establish the Law (Rom. 3:31). He says all these things in one series (Romans 3:27-31); and he also says in the preceding chapter: For not the hearers of the Law are justified by God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified (Rom. 3:13). God will render to every man according to his deeds (Rom. 2:6). We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, whether they be good or evil (2 Cor. 5:10). Besides many other things from him; from which it is evident that Paul rejects faith without good works, equally with James (2:17-26).

Harry:)
 
That “man is justified by faith without the works of the Law,” was not rightly understood, because Paul by “the works of the Law” meant the works of the Mosaic law, which was for the Jews; which we also clearly see from his words to Peter; whom he rebuked for judaizing, when yet he knew that “no one is justified by the works of the Law” (Galatians 2:14-16); also, that he distinguishes between the law of faith and the law of works; and between Jews and Gentiles, or circumcision and uncircumcision, meaning by circumcision, Judaism, as everywhere else; and likewise from his summing up with these words: Do we then abrogate the law through faith? Not so, but we establish the Law (Rom. 3:31). He says all these things in one series (Romans 3:27-31); and he also says in the preceding chapter: For not the hearers of the Law are justified by God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified (Rom. 3:13). God will render to every man according to his deeds (Rom. 2:6). We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, whether they be good or evil (2 Cor. 5:10). Besides many other things from him; from which it is evident that Paul rejects faith without good works, equally with James (2:17-26).

Harry:)
So I take it that you don’t believe in “faith alone”. I’m pleasantly surprised. 🙂
 
That “man is justified by faith without the works of the Law,” was not rightly understood, because Paul by “the works of the Law” meant the works of the Mosaic law, which was for the Jews; which we also clearly see from his words to Peter; whom he rebuked for judaizing, when yet he knew that “no one is justified by the woks of the Law” (Galatians 2:14-16)

Although I agree with some of the points you make, my disagreement is that in the cases where Paul uses the phrase “works of law,” he does not, in every instance, mean the Mosaic Law. The context of Paul’s topic at hand will determine this. In the case of the Galatians, circumcision itself is NOT a part of the Mosaic Law, as circumcision was given to Abraham, not Moses. The Jews after Moses practiced it, of course, but not because it was given under the Sinai covenant.

Another area where you would run into that problem is Romans 3, where Paul says that by works of law no one will be justified. Paul has in mind here the whole world - Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law. So clearly what Paul has in mind here is not restricted to dietary laws, circumcision and Sabbath keeping - none of which were ever required of non-Jews.

It is more consistent to view works of law as being comprehensive of that which is required for holiness in God’s sight, either by the dictates of the conscience (especially in the casebof Gentiles, which Paul calls law), as well as what is reflected in the apodictic mandates of the Mosaic Law. To restrict it to being Jewish rite and ritual is to make a whole lot of passages nonsensical. For example, Eph. 2:8-10, taking the “works always means the Mosaic law” interpretation in mind, would read “For it is by grace that you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is a gift, not of works of the Mosaic Law, lest anyone should boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works of the Mosaic Law…” Clearly, that’s not what Paul has in mind.

Your citation of Rom. 2:6 is well taken, however, doing the law (as Paul directs this section to Jews) is something Paul later goes on to say that no Jew does (nor Gentiles, in disobeying their conscience).
 
Although I agree with some of the points you make, my disagreement is that in the cases where Paul uses the phrase “works of law,” he does not, in every instance, mean the Mosaic Law. The context of Paul’s topic at hand will determine this. In the case of the Galatians, circumcision itself is NOT a part of the Mosaic Law, as circumcision was given to Abraham, not Moses. The Jews after Moses practiced it, of course, but not because it was given under the Sinai covenant.

Another area where you would run into that problem is Romans 3, where Paul says that by works of law no one will be justified. Paul has in mind here the whole world - Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law. So clearly what Paul has in mind here is not restricted to dietary laws, circumcision and Sabbath keeping - none of which were ever required of non-Jews.

It is more consistent to view works of law as being comprehensive of that which is required for holiness in God’s sight, either by the dictates of the conscience (especially in the casebof Gentiles, which Paul calls law), as well as what is reflected in the apodictic mandates of the Mosaic Law. To restrict it to being Jewish rite and ritual is to make a whole lot of passages nonsensical. For example, Eph. 2:8-10, taking the “works always means the Mosaic law” interpretation in mind, would read “For it is by grace that you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is a gift, not of works of the Mosaic Law, lest anyone should boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works of the Mosaic Law…” Clearly, that’s not what Paul has in mind.

Your citation of Rom. 2:6 is well taken, however, doing the law (as Paul directs this section to Jews) is something Paul later goes on to say that no Jew does (nor Gentiles, in disobeying their conscience).
Very good points!

I think we can conclude:

NOT by Faith alone and NOT by Works alone. Which is why Paul never, ever said by Faith alone.

http://gifs.gifbin.com/2yu3sw37748.gif
 
So I take it that you don’t believe in “faith alone”. I’m pleasantly surprised. 🙂
We must search the sins in us, Repent them before God, change ourself,and pray to the Lord for help. We obey the Ten Commandments. Paul wrote we must let the old self die, and let the new self live in the name of Jesus Christ. It is the Lord that changes us, but we must do our part. When the Lord said ,behold I make all things new, He meant the soul man would be made new.

Harry:)
 
We must search the sins in us, Repent them before God, change ourself,and pray to the Lord for help. We obey the Ten Commandments. Paul wrote we must let the old self die, and let the new self live in the name of Jesus Christ. It is the Lord that changes us, but we must do our part. When the Lord said ,behold I make all things new, He meant the soul man would be made new.

Harry:)
👍
 
Do people that believe in faith alone believe in the bible except for James 2:24 alone?
 
Do people that believe in faith alone believe in the bible except for James 2:24 alone?
By no means. I don’t see in any way that James contradicts Paul, or the reverse. I see James speaking to the law, and how the regenerate should live the godly life. No Lutheran (should) believe that being justified by grace alone through faith alone is license to not live the godly life, to work out their salvation in fear and trembling.

What we do recognize is that no one comes to the Father but through Christ, that we come to justification only because of grace, and it is accessed by faith. those who live by faith are bound (required) to do His will, to follow His commands.

There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow. - Luther

Jon
 
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