Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

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Belief in justification by faith alone and belief in Once Saved always saved makes a Catholic a heretic provided that Catholic knows the Catholic faith.

If that person persists in heresy unrepentant up to death then yes that person would go to Hell!

I wish Hell on no one and only God can judge whether a Catholic knows the Catholic faith well enough to be culpable for departing from it and only God can know if that Catholic would be truly unrepentant for such beliefs all the way up to the time of their deaths.

If those things were judged by God to be the case then the unrepentant knowledgeable Catholic heretic would go to Hell!

The reason the person would go to hell is that they would MORTALLY sin by refusing to believe the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Yes Mortal and venial sin does exist.

Dying in a state of mortal sin = Hell and it doesn’t matter whether you WANT to believe that or not or whether you LIKET to believe that or not–it is a FACT!!!

You don’t get to believe whatever you WANT to believe after having knowledge of the TRUTH of the Catholic faith!

Now some people who are Catholics may not have full knowledge of all the doctrines of the Catholic faith–God doesn’t send anyone to Hell for what they do not know.

The reason your salvation could be like a yo-yo is that yes most humans do mortally sin–that is WHY Jesus gave the disciples the power to “FORGIVE and RETAIN sins” when He blowed on them in the upper room AFTER He had paid the price on the cross and had risen from the dead.

there would be no need for the disciples to have the POWER that Jesus has–to FORGIVE and RETAIN sins if Jesus didn’t know that we would NEED Confession!

Is it Harder than once saved always saved? Of Course! Is it as Hard as Jesus paying for all the BILLIONS of sins for all times on the Cross! Of course not!

Tp tell the truth if a disciple of the Lord’s is not willing to do something as EASY as going to Confession after the PRICE that Jesus paid for him on the Cross–

then that disciple isn’t WORTH the price that Jesus paid on the cross and as a matter of JUSTICE belongs in Hell!

Jesus only asks us to confess MORTAL ins to a priest–not venial ones.

St. Paul told us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”.

OBEY the bible and God who wrote it and just do it!

Don’t go for the easy way of Protestant heretics 1500 years after the fact doing whatever they want to do and wind up burning in Hell!
“As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” John 20:21-23 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

One “retains” what was in one’s possession as you cannot “retain” that which you did not possess prior to “retaining” it. If Peter “retains a sin”, the sin that was retained was Peter’s sin. If Peter forgave those who persecuted him, they would be forgiven (by Peter). If Peter did not forgive, then sin remains in Peter because he did not forgive. The passage did not say that Christians must confess their sins to Peter in order to receive God’s forgiveness.

One could say, “The Johnny forgave Sally for stealing his toy. Sally was forgiven.” Johnny forgave Sally’s sin against Johnny. It’s just that simple.

The same Holy Spirit that Peter received, I also received. He came into me on the darkest of nights. After a series of tragedies, I could not continue on my own. I had come to the edge. I said “Lord, I cannot carry the burden. You must carry it.” In that moment, I had put my faith in Him and He filled me. I felt like I was floating. A light appeared in the room. I gazed at it for minutes or hours, I do not know. What I did know was that… while I had not intended to become a Christian, that is what I had become. For three days I was “in the spirit”.

I am His. I belong to Him. He is in me and I in Him. We are one… for more than forty years.
 
No one believed in Once Saved always saved for 1500 years!

Ask yourself–did God NOT MIND when His Catholic Church that He founded didn’t teach that notion for 1500 years?

Men say Once Saved Always saved–God doesn’t!

God wrote Matthew, Mark, and Luke, too!

None of the verses quoted says that Once you’re saved you’re always saved!

No Ecumenical Council ever taught that garbage!

Do you think that bishops from all over the world have been teaching FALSITY for 2,000 years and that God waited 1500 years to get it straight?

Go for the EASY way instead of the narrow rough and rocky way that leads to eternal life and you’ll wind up in Hell!

If you REALLY believe Once saved Always Saved then do whatever you want to the rest of your life–Jesus doesn’t mind–He paid for the price so you can ENJOY sinning without consequences!

What kind of anti-intelligence sense does that make?

Did Jesus die so you don’t HAVE to be transformed unto perfection?

It doesn’t make sense for Jesus to die on the Cross so that people will not become perfect. Jesus said “Be ye PERFECT as your Father in heaven is PERFECT.”

The REASON that people go to Hell for dying in a state of MORTAL sin is that they’ve INFINITELY rejected Jesus’ grace and perfect INFINITE love!

They HAVE to go to Hell for it because if they didn’t then God would not be Just!

If Salvation is as easy as once saved always saved then God could just forgive everyone and Jesus wouldn’t have even HAD to die on the Cross!

What was the purpose for straightening out our sins if we wallow in them and die and stay crooked in them which is WHAT you do if you die in a state of MORTAL sin.

Dying in a state of mortal sin = Hell! Ask yourself this question" Are you willing to bet your soul on all the people in all the Catholic Churches in the world being LIARS for 1500 years just so you can avoid confessing your mortal sins to a priest because it’s easier and it feels good to you doing it the way you want to?

If you’re willing to make that bet then Hebrews 6:4-6 WILL pertain to you!
 
Belief in justification by faith alone and belief in Once Saved always saved makes a Catholic a heretic provided that Catholic knows the Catholic faith.

If that person persists in heresy unrepentant up to death then yes that person would go to Hell!

I wish Hell on no one and only God can judge whether a Catholic knows the Catholic faith well enough to be culpable for departing from it and only God can know if that Catholic would be truly unrepentant for such beliefs all the way up to the time of their deaths.

If those things were judged by God to be the case then the unrepentant knowledgeable Catholic heretic would go to Hell!

The reason the Catholic would go to Hell is that they would MORTALLY sin by refusing to believe the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Yes Mortal and venial sin does exist.

Dying in a state of mortal sin = Hell and it doesn’t matter whether you WANT to believe that or not or whether you LIKE to believe that or not–it is a FACT!!!

You don’t get to believe whatever you WANT to believe after having knowledge of the TRUTH of the Catholic faith!

Now some people who are Catholics may not have full knowledge of all the doctrines of the Catholic faith–God doesn’t send anyone to Hell for what they do not know.

The reason your salvation could be like a yo-yo is that yes most humans do mortally sin–that is WHY Jesus gave the disciples the power to “FORGIVE and RETAIN sins” when He breathed on them in the upper room and gave them that power AFTER He had paid the price on the cross and had risen from the dead.

There would be no need for the disciples to have the POWER that Jesus has–to FORGIVE and RETAIN sins if Jesus didn’t know that we would NEED Confession!

Is it Harder than once saved always saved? Of Course! Is it as Hard as Jesus paying for all the BILLIONS of sins for all times on the Cross! Of course not!

To tell the truth if a disciple of the Lord’s is not willing to do something as EASY as going to Confession after the PRICE that Jesus paid for him on the Cross–

then that disciple isn’t WORTH the price that Jesus paid on the cross and as a matter of JUSTICE belongs in Hell!

Why? Because every time we sin we INFINITELY offend God because God is INFINITELY perfect and has never offended us who He INFINITELY loves!

If a Catholic REJECTS confession which Jesus gave us then that Catholic is telling Jesus–I don’t care what you gave me the sacrament of confession to remove my mortal sins Jesus–I am going to do whatever I want to whenever I want to because I want to and what I WANT is to not confess to a priest when I mortally sin.

Not only that but I’m going to say that your Catholic Church is a LIAR and I’m going to NOT BELIEVE in mortal sin and I’m going to believe in Once saved always saved because it is CONVENIENT for me!

Jesus only asks us to confess MORTAL sins to a priest–not venial ones.

St. Paul told us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”.

OBEY the bible and God who wrote it and just do it!

Don’t go for the easy way of Protestant heretics 1500 years after the fact doing whatever they want to do and wind up burning in Hell!
The book of Acts records the events in the early church for 40 years or more.

Is there any place in Acts or any other book of the Bible where a believer received forgiveness from a priest in confession?

I am not a Catholic and accordingly don’t know where the doctrine of confession to a priest came from.

Lord of Heaven and Earth, please reveal yourself to Jerry-Jet and I! Amen.
 
Now do you see my delimema… there are two sides to this issue. And both sides to appear to be lovers of God and belief in Jesus… and I ask all of us… what honestly would Jesus say here ??? and in my original response I never said I did not confess my mortal sins to a priest. I just disagreed if is required for salvation. Saved today, condemend to hell tomorrow, saved the next day after confessions, etc… Nor did I say I take the easy way out. In fact, I try soooo hard to do what is right and actually follow the catholic religion to perfection. I love the Lord and cant wait to meet Jesus. I need him so bad… so am I going to hell for questioning my catholic religion. I guess the answer is YES… and that scares me if it is true… then on the other point of view, I feel Jesus knows whats in my heart and is helping me to be a different better person. and that His death will indeed save me - (and yes I plan on still following the Catholic rules in the process as if i remain part of this church, i should indeed follow the rules whether I believe all of them or not)… am i still a heretic then - bound for hell ?

So do you know why I am so confused. I DO practice the Cathloic faith. I do go to confession when I mortally sin… but I honestly do not believe that I will go to hell if for some reason I die before I get to confession… so YES I am practicing the Catholic Faith (better then many Catholic believers), but I simply believe also that by accepting Jesus into your life (and meaning it sincerely - and changing from your old self to a new self with the help of the Holy Spirit) that you are saved. SO I guess I am playing both sides of the fence here and covering my bases BECAUSE I do FEAR the Lord. … and YES I love him… I simply have some Catholic doctorine that I do not believe in my heart (like knowingly eating meat on Friday during lent and not confessing it will lead me to Hell)… Now if this does happen to me during lent - I would go to confession (but honestly would not believe a loving God would send me to hell - i use this just as an example).

So if I choose to be honest with myself and believe certain doctorine opposite of the Catholic religion I want to stay in, would Jesus himself condemn be to Hell for believing in Him more for my salvation then the Catholic Church… if my heart truly wants to know the truth and truly wants to do what Jesus wants me to do… It is not because I am lazy or want to take the easy way out that I question this doctorine… it is after I have read thoroughly both sides and points of view… again, I am not looking to leave the Catholic religon as they have many things and sacrements that bring me closer to God… so would Jesus and the Vatican kick me out as a heretic and condemn to hell for disagree - yet following the rules of the faith. Including confession on mortal sins… You see, I simply DO NOT KNOW which side is right… and I feel like a hypocrit for playing both sides of the fence to make sure i do not go to hell. I beleive in Jesus alone as the path to salvation - but may have some doubt here… and I also doubt that we can constantly lose our salvation like a yo yo from day to day that the Catholic church teaches… yet I make sure I follow all of the Catholic church rules to insure I do get to heaven… I just want Jesus to show me the truth … as I feel BOTH sides LOVES JESUS… and I beleive God LOVES us so much.
 
No one believed in Once Saved always saved for 1500 years!

Ask yourself–did God NOT MIND when His Catholic Church that He founded didn’t teach that notion for 1500 years?

Men say Once Saved Always saved–God doesn’t!

God wrote Matthew, Mark, and Luke, too!

None of the verses quoted says that Once you’re saved you’re always saved!

No Ecumenical Council ever taught that garbage!

Do you think that bishops from all over the world have been teaching FALSITY for 2,000 years and that God waited 1500 years to get it straight?

Go for the EASY way instead of the narrow rough and rocky way that leads to eternal life and you’ll wind up in Hell!

If you REALLY believe Once saved Always Saved then do whatever you want to the rest of your life–Jesus doesn’t mind–He paid for the price so you can ENJOY sinning without consequences!

What kind of anti-intelligence sense does that make?

Did Jesus die so you don’t HAVE to be transformed unto perfection?

It doesn’t make sense for Jesus to die on the Cross so that people will not become perfect. Jesus said “Be ye PERFECT as your Father in heaven is PERFECT.”

The REASON that people go to Hell for dying in a state of MORTAL sin is that they’ve INFINITELY rejected Jesus’ grace and perfect INFINITE love!

They HAVE to go to Hell for it because if they didn’t then God would not be Just!

If Salvation is as easy as once saved always saved then God could just forgive everyone and Jesus wouldn’t have even HAD to die on the Cross!

What was the purpose for straightening out our sins if we wallow in them and die and stay crooked in them which is WHAT you do if you die in a state of MORTAL sin.

Dying in a state of mortal sin = Hell! Ask yourself this question" Are you willing to bet your soul on all the people in all the Catholic Churches in the world being LIARS for 1500 years just so you can avoid confessing your mortal sins to a priest because it’s easier and it feels good to you doing it the way you want to?

If you’re willing to make that bet then Hebrews 6:4-6 WILL pertain to you!
For 40 years I leaned to “once saved always saved” but considered scriptures sited by both sides to be inconclusive. Last year, I read Galatians from start to finish 7 times and my eyes were opened.

I do not believe that the scriptures teach ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.

I believe that the clearest evidence from scripture against OSAS is as follows:

“if you let yourselves be circumcised (believing that circumcision is a requirement for justification or salvation), Christ will be of NO BENEFIT to you. 3 Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the ENTIRE LAW. 4 You who want to be justified by the law have CUT YOURSELVES OFF FROM CHRIST; you have fallen away from grace… You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? Galatians 5:1-7 (Parenthesis mine)

Explanation: Paul told the Galatians that they would LOSE THEIR SALVATION if they added obedience to the law as a condition of salvation. Circumcision was not wrong. Paul was circumcised and he had Timothy circumcised. To pursue salvation by keeping the law… instead of salvation by living faith… means, that one must be true to the plan of salvation they chose. If salvation by keeping the law is pursued, then the entire law must be kept (which is impossible).

Lord of Heaven and Earth, please reveal yourself to those who seek your presence! Amen
 
Now do you see my delimema… there are two sides to this issue. And both sides to appear to be lovers of God and belief in Jesus… and I ask all of us… what honestly would Jesus say here ??? and in my original response I never said I did not confess my mortal sins to a priest. I just disagreed if is required for salvation. Saved today, condemend to hell tomorrow, saved the next day after confessions, etc… Nor did I say I take the easy way out. In fact, I try soooo hard to do what is right and actually follow the catholic religion to perfection. I love the Lord and cant wait to meet Jesus. I need him so bad… so am I going to hell for questioning my catholic religion. I guess the answer is YES… and that scares me if it is true… then on the other point of view, I feel Jesus knows whats in my heart and is helping me to be a different better person. and that His death will indeed save me - (and yes I plan on still following the Catholic rules in the process as if i remain part of this church, i should indeed follow the rules whether I believe all of them or not)… am i still a heretic then - bound for hell ?

So do you know why I am so confused. I DO practice the Cathloic faith. I do go to confession when I mortally sin… but I honestly do not believe that I will go to hell if for some reason I die before I get to confession… so YES I am practicing the Catholic Faith (better then many Catholic believers), but I simply believe also that by accepting Jesus into your life (and meaning it sincerely - and changing from your old self to a new self with the help of the Holy Spirit) that you are saved. SO I guess I am playing both sides of the fence here and covering my bases BECAUSE I do FEAR the Lord. … and YES I love him… I simply have some Catholic doctorine that I do not believe in my heart (like knowingly eating meat on Friday during lent and not confessing it will lead me to Hell)… Now if this does happen to me during lent - I would go to confession (but honestly would not believe a loving God would send me to hell - i use this just as an example).

So if I choose to be honest with myself and believe certain doctorine opposite of the Catholic religion I want to stay in, would Jesus himself condemn be to Hell for believing in Him more for my salvation then the Catholic Church… if my heart truly wants to know the truth and truly wants to do what Jesus wants me to do… It is not because I am lazy or want to take the easy way out that I question this doctorine… it is after I have read thoroughly both sides and points of view… again, I am not looking to leave the Catholic religon as they have many things and sacrements that bring me closer to God… so would Jesus and the Vatican kick me out as a heretic and condemn to hell for disagree - yet following the rules of the faith. Including confession on mortal sins… You see, I simply DO NOT KNOW which side is right… and I feel like a hypocrit for playing both sides of the fence to make sure i do not go to hell. I beleive in Jesus alone as the path to salvation - but may have some doubt here… and I also doubt that we can constantly lose our salvation like a yo yo from day to day that the Catholic church teaches… yet I make sure I follow all of the Catholic church rules to insure I do get to heaven… I just want Jesus to show me the truth … as I feel BOTH sides LOVES JESUS… and I beleive God LOVES us so much.

And why in Paul letters did not he clearly explain the Catholic religion and rules when he was teaching and mentoring all of the new christian churches being formed ? - Why is it left so open for interpretation by us - all whom see to be God loving people that may disagree or be confused like me ? (but Love God)

So in your honest opinion then… does a person like me that practices the religion but does not necessarily believe in all of the Catholic doctorine 100 percent, go to hell ? Or does God see my heart and desire to love Jesus as being my #1 priority… (over Catholic or any church for that matter rules and regulations)… What honestly would Jesus say to me today if he appeared to me ?.. you see I am being serious here. Whatever Jesus would say to me is what I HONESTLY would believe and follow. So yes I like to know if i am going to hell in your honest opinion based on what I shared above from the heart.

Steve
 
Unrepentant until death fully knowledgeable and culpable for being knowledgeable(as perfectly judged so by God) Catholics who depart from the Catholic Church’s Doctrine into Heresy go to Hell PERIOD!!!

That is not just my opinion–that is the teaching of the Catholic Church!

Unrepented heresy at death = Hell!
 
Where did I write that I wanted to leave the catholic church ? If I disagree but still follow its rules, do you then feel I still go to hell.

Is your response above what Jesus would tell me ? I am curious. Re-read what I wrote and l like to know yours and others opinions on what Jesus would tell me if He saw me and new what was in my heart. (i may disagree but would still follow the catholic rules in my life)
 
Where did I write that I wanted to leave the catholic church ? If I disagree but still follow its rules, do you then feel I still go to hell.
That is above our paygrade, steved. No Catholic ought to be telling you where you will end up eternally.

Strive to enter.
 
However, if I was honest with myself, I am struggling with this idea that if I go to confession , my soul is then in a state of grace and I will go to heaven. But then i somehow mortally sin the next day - I am condemned to hell ? (not because I do not love God - but am a human being that stumbles at times).
Take this analogy: let’s say you are married and you commit adultery. You repent, seek the forgiveness of your wife and are allowed back into the marital bed. The very next day you go out and commit adultery again.

Do you think your wife would be correct to metaphorically kick you out of bed again?
 
PR,

Thanks for your response… but if Catholic Church teaches doctorine and it is not totally believed by a practicing catholic like myself - and that such a person does go to hell. then couldn’t a catholic tell another that YES you are going to hell according to current catholic teachings.

You see this confuses me… What would Jesus tell me if he appeared today to me RIGHT NOW. Would he tell me that yes I am condemning you to hell (or condemning myself) because you Steve know what the catholic religion teaches - but you don’t agree on some of their moral teachings. Doesn’t matter that you love me Jesus with all your heart and accept my mercy… I am condemning you to hell because deep in your heart you do not believe all of catholic teachings - I (Jesus) appreciate you following their rule onto death. but you are only doing this to save yourself. but since you do not believe fully in some of the catholic teaching. you are going to hell. belief in me Jesus and my mercy (Jesus) as the path to salvation is not enough for you. Therefore when you die, you will not be with me and go to hell ?

Would Jesus tell me this according to catholic doctorine if he would appear to me today and now truly whats in my heart. You see according to what I hear catholic doctorine teaches, I must believe or I am a heretic and will go to hell. So If this is the case, this is what Jesus would tell me. (seems like Jesus was not like this at all in the Gospels) and Paul letters to the early churches.

But I am confused and could be wrong. So this is why I am asking. What would Jesus tell me today ?
 
PR,

Thanks for your response… but if Catholic Church teaches doctorine and it is not totally believed by a practicing catholic like myself - and that such a person does go to hell…
Why don’t we stop right here and go to the source. If you could provide something from the Magisterium that proclaims that a practicing Catholic goes to hell for “not totally” believing a doctrine, that would be helpful.
 
PR,

Actually this is what I am asking of others. DOes the catholic religion state that a practicing catholic that does not believe in some of the more serious moral rules is a heretic (as I was called by a previous poster)… and Heretic means hell. My original question is am I being a hypocrite for following the religion that I want to stay a part of… even if I do not agree with some of its teachings. (but agree to follow the rules to remain part of the religion - and to protect myself from hell just in case I am wrong).
 
PR,

Actually this is what I am asking of others. DOes the catholic religion state that a practicing catholic that does not believe in some of the more serious moral rules is a heretic (as I was called by a previous poster)… and Heretic means hell. My original question is am I being a hypocrite for following the religion that I want to stay a part of… even if I do not agree with some of its teachings. (but agree to follow the rules to remain part of the religion - and to protect myself from hell just in case I am wrong).
No.

The Catholic Church does not teach who is in hell.

Heretic is reserved for those who know the Catholic Faith but reject it.

Clearly, that is not something you could be charged with.
 
PR,

What are you trying to tell me. Please explain. I am asking you and others these questions about what catholic doctorine and teaching states to my questions. if the answer is there is nothing that states you are going to hell or mortally sinning . then let me know. But what honestly would Jesus tell me to my question. I am being sincere. Am I in danger of hell according to Catholic teaching for going through the motions on some issues (when I honestly do not believe God would hold me in judgement (example - I do not believe missing mass would have my soul go to hell if I did not confess prior to death)… but as a practicing catholic, if I missed mass, I would indeed go to confessions on this - whether I believed of not… can a priest answer my question on this board if members cannot.

again, can I disagree on issues like I believe the path of salvation is through Christ alone - but practice the catholic faith anyways (even if I disagree with some of the things I am practicing)… or must I leave the church (which I gather means I go to hell)… Or can I stay in the church and not agree - as long as I practice the religion according to the catholic rules (or is this non belief on certain practicing issues wrong and I am going to hell). What would Jesus tell me the answer is to this question I have that worries me.

thanks
 
I am asking you and others these questions about what catholic doctorine and teaching states to my questions.
The Catholic Church does not state whether you are going to hell. She doesn’t know.

And neither do we.

Jesus tells you to “Strive to enter.”

Learn what the faith teaches. And if there’s something about the teaching that confuses you, post your question here.
 
(example - I do not believe missing mass would have my soul go to hell if I did not confess prior to death)…
Imagine Jesus coming down to tell you: you need to come and spend 1 hour worshipping me once a week in the Holy Mass and you say, “I don’t believe that I have to do this, Jesus.”

What do you think his response would be?

Also, do you have any response to my analogy regarding a husband who commits adultery, is repentant, and then the very next day cheats on his wife again. Do you not think the wife has a right to kick him out of her marriage bed?
 
PR,

Very helpful analogies… as you can see I am seeking the truth and will continue to do so, and in the meantime follow ALL of the catholic rules as best I can. While still committing myself to drawing closer in my personal relationship and faith in Jesus as my (our) Lord and Savior for salvation and the truth. I just hope this is not an offense against the catholic church.

Thanks again
 
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