Faith Alone, Equivalent to Nothing?

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It is evident that before repentance it is charity, the good of which is not from the Lord but from the man, is not good, but after repentance it is charity the good of which is not from the man but from the Lord. The Lord cannot enter with a man, and do any good from Himself through him, before the devil, that is, evil, is cast out, but after he is cast out. The devil is cast out by repentance, and when he is cast out the Lord enters and does good there through the man, yet always in such a way that the man does not perceive otherwise than that he is doing it from himself; though he knows nevertheless that it is from the Lord. The good man does good from the Lord, as if from self, but it is the Lord who does the good in man and through man.

Harry:)
 
PR,

What are you trying to tell me. Please explain. I am asking you and others these questions about what catholic doctorine and teaching states to my questions. if the answer is there is nothing that states you are going to hell or mortally sinning . then let me know. But what honestly would Jesus tell me to my question. I am being sincere. Am I in danger of hell according to Catholic teaching for going through the motions on some issues
Don’t ever let any religion or church seperate your from knowing God’s love. And don’t let theology determine God’s nature. Spend time reading the Bible for yourself, pray about it, seek out a wise priest or pastor to talk to. But a bunch of polemical religious answers meant to win a debate or convince a skeptical person aren’t going to fix your spiritual problem, which is that you don’t know God, you know a bunch of religious practices. If the religious practices aren’t pointing you to God’s forgiveness and mercy, you need help. They should never be pointing you to God’s anger, judgement, or condemnation, if they are, something is wrong in your spiritual life.
 
And don’t let theology determine God’s nature.
Well, yes and no. Theology doesn’t “determine” God’s nature. But you can’t know what God’s nature* is *without using theology.

And you can’t know what it is without the Church and religion.
 
Well, yes and no. Theology doesn’t “determine” God’s nature. But you can’t know what God’s nature* is *without using theology.

And you can’t know what it is without the Church and religion.
If by “Church” you mean God’s economy of salvation throughout time, then perhaps I agree. If you mean an institution, then I disagree completely.

God is best encountered in prayer and worship. All theology is good for is a rudder to guide the experience. However theology itself won’t bring you that experience. Likewise, for this particular individual, he or she is trying to reduce the whole work of conversion of life to a yo-yo circuit between the confessional and the outside world.

Spirituality, not just religion-as-obligation, is important to a God-centered life If a person stresses the objective, the obligation to the point of the denial of the subjective inner involvement, then one can be left with a wooden faith that is really no faith at all, just magical thinking.
 
If by “Church” you mean God’s economy of salvation throughout time, then perhaps I agree. If you mean an institution, then I disagree completely.
You do know, Fire, that it was an institution that brought you any kind of knowledge of Jesus, yes?

Without this institution you wouldn’t have any knowledge of how God wants to be worshipped.
God is best encountered in prayer and worship. All theology is good for is a rudder to guide the experience. However theology itself won’t bring you that experience.
Indeed.
Spirituality, not just religion-as-obligation, is important to a God-centered life If a person stresses the objective, the obligation to the point of the denial of the subjective inner involvement, then one can be left with a wooden faith that is really no faith at all, just magical thinking.
This is very Catholic. 👍
 
If this stuff doesn’t transform your life it’s worthless. But the good news is at least you’re not wasting much time; all you had to do is give a mental “thumbs up” to a set of concepts (kinda like clicking ‘like’ on a facebook post) and then sit back and pretend you know you’re going to Heaven. Fun fun fun.
 
Don’t ever let any religion or church seperate your from knowing God’s love. And don’t let theology determine God’s nature. Spend time reading the Bible for yourself, pray about it, seek out a wise priest or pastor to talk to.
Amen! The Bible will tell you:

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

1 Timothy 1:3
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

1 Timothy 4:6
If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

Acts 2:42
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Romans 16:17
Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

2 Timothy 3:10–17
2 Timothy 4:1–5
Titus 1:7–9

Titus 2:1
But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine:
Titus 2:9–10
2 John 9–10
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;

I don’t know about you… but I think doctrine, teaching and traditions are really, really, really important. Otherwise, they would have not been included in Sacred Scriptures.
But a bunch of polemical religious answers meant to win a debate or convince a skeptical person aren’t going to fix your spiritual problem, which is that you don’t know God, you know a bunch of religious practices. If the religious practices aren’t pointing you to God’s forgiveness and mercy, you need help. They should never be pointing you to God’s anger, judgement, or condemnation, if they are, something is wrong in your spiritual life.
You do know God doesn’t tolerate sin? And that because of sin, His Only Begotten Son was sacrificed? And that He provided us a way to deal with sin. I can post those references as well is you’d like.

There WILL be a judgement, you do know that right?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

What do you think happens to those who are not in Christ?

John 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

And how do we abide in Christ?

1 John 3:24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

So yes, by all means read the Bible and pray!
 
The child is not blame for their parent’s sins. Only if the child grows up and accepts and copy off the parents, than the parent’s sins become the child A child’s innocent is only external until the child grows and learn how to love and serve the Kord correctly, and than the child’s innocent become internal, which means,from the spirit. The Lord is 100 time more innocent than billions of children. No child is born perfect.

Harry:)
Ecc 11:5 As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

You said:
Originally Posted by Harry1941
Man is born into evils of every kind. His will, which is his proprium, is nothing but evil. Unless, therefore, a man is reformed and regenerated, he not only remains just as he was born, but becomes even worse, because he adds actual evils himself to those hereditarily acquired.
Are you saying that the spirit that arrives in the womb of a woman is evil?

Exactly where did I say that the Lord is not more innocent than billions of children?
Which is something completely outside the scope of our discussion…

Oh and by the way, the Lord said:

Matthew 19:14 but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

Now how exactly does the kingdom of heaven belong to all kinds of evil born kiddos?
 
You do know, Fire, that it was an institution that brought you any kind of knowledge of Jesus, yes?

Without this institution you wouldn’t have any knowledge of how God wants to be worshipped.
I agree more with the Orthodox POV expressed by Thomas Hopko- the orthodox faith is a faith with institutions, not an institution with a faith. I don’t accept the clericalism that some on the Tiber side of things do, call it the “priesthood of all believers” if you want.
 
Amen! The Bible will tell you:
You do know God doesn’t tolerate sin? And that because of sin, His Only Begotten Son was sacrificed? And that He provided us a way to deal with sin. I can post those references as well is you’d like.
God puts up with alot of sin, because he’s longsuffering, merciful, and desires the salvation of all people.

Jesus was crucified because human rebellion killed the Son of God- he was killed by very religious people that thought he was a threat to authority and order. Not because God was angry and had to take it out on somebody.

If somebody is going to confession regularly and still feels like they are on a neverending treadmill, they haven’t encountered real forgiveness. The Fathers, especially in the East, describe the joy that comes from a life of real repentence, it is not meant to be agony or monotony, it’s suppossed to draw us closer to God (this is one possible interpretation of Christ’s beatitude, “Blessed are those who mourn”)… Confession is not a mechanical act that works apart from repentence-as-way-of-life (well, at least not in the Anglican and Orthodox traditions- I’ll let Catholics speak for themselves), the priest pronounces forgiveness or absolution on behalf of God so that the person is unburdened and knows God’s love in more than an abstract sense. I bet alot of modern Roman Catholic priests would teach something very similar, despite whatever was said about this in the scholastic tradition 800 years ago.

Yet, if ones spirituality is narcissistic or self-asborbed, then repentence starts turning into a horrible burden, and that in itself is a serious sin. It’s like the servant that buries the talent.
 
I agree more with the Orthodox POV expressed by Thomas Hopko- the orthodox faith is a faith with institutions, not an institution with a faith. I don’t accept the clericalism that some on the Tiber side of things do, call it the “priesthood of all believers” if you want.
There’s nothing here that I could disagree with.

It’s a non-sequitur, however.

Point: you could not know anything about Jesus except through the Church.

Thus, you ought to acknowledge institutionalized religion as being a great contributor to your faith.
 
God puts up with alot of sin, because he’s longsuffering, merciful, and desires the salvation of all people.
Amen! Sadly not all will be saved. Thus the Great Commandment and the great need for our prayers for those that are not in Christ or do not know Him.
Jesus was crucified because human rebellion (SIN) killed the Son of God- he was killed by very religious people that thought he was a threat to authority and order. Not because God was angry and had to take it out on somebody.
Because sin has a price that is demanded by God. Christ paid our ransom.

Still we are accountable and our life is a practice of enjoying God’s Grace and Mercy learning to get closer to Him and abiding in His Son, constantly. This is precisely why He chose Apostles, whom in turn chose others and taught what Christ taught them. And the result of these teachings is the Catholic Church.
Yet, if ones spirituality is narcissistic or self-asborbed, then repentence starts turning into a horrible burden, and that in itself is a serious sin. It’s like the servant that buries the talent.
Amen.
 
Ecc 11:5 As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

You said:

Are you saying that the spirit that arrives in the womb of a woman is evil?

Exactly where did I say that the Lord is not more innocent than billions of children?
Which is something completely outside the scope of our discussion…

Oh and by the way, the Lord said:

Matthew 19:14 but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

Now how exactly does the kingdom of heaven belong to all kinds of evil born kiddos?
To say we are not born into evils of all kinds, that makes us sinless like Mary… In that sense we don’t need God, since were’re all born good and perfect. The Catholic seem think that the angels are sinless and perfect, and that they too don’t need God… Should we become like Lucifer,and make ourselves equal to God? We are not born in good. The child must be led into good and truth. If they are not led into good, they will turn to evil.

Harry:)
 
The Catholic seem think that the angels are sinless and perfect, and that they too don’t need God.
Please do not misrepresent the Catholic Church’s teachings, Harry. This is something that people can get banned for.

You will need to provide something from the Church magisterium that supports your assertion, else you will need to retract the above. Please provide your source from the Church that states that the angels, being sinless and perfect, do not need God.
 
Straw man arguments are a bannable offense? On an internet forum? I guess that’s one way to thin the herd.
 
To say we are not born into evils of all kinds, that makes us sinless like Mary… In that sense we don’t need God, since were’re all born good and perfect. The Catholic seem think that the angels are sinless and perfect, and that they too don’t need God… Should we become like Lucifer,and make ourselves equal to God? We are not born in good. The child must be led into good and truth. If they are not led into good, they will turn to evil.

Harry:)
Harry,

Did you read what Jesus said? Do you disagree with Jesus?

We are all sinners, right? And still we are told that of we abide in Christ and obey Him we will be with Him in heaven. How does that make children be sinless? We are conceived in sin.

Now please explain exactly how we are all born into all kind of evils.

Where does our spirit come from? Who alone can create spirit? Do you mean to say that God creates all of our spirits evil?

Perhaps you can also explain how each spirit is assigned to our flesh and bones.

Are you so arrogant as to claim that you know what all Catholics think?

Not only that but your claims are false.

We are not playing to be like God, Harry… you are.
 
Straw man arguments are a bannable offense? On an internet forum? I guess that’s one way to thin the herd.


Er, no.

What is bannable is proclaiming, “The Catholic Church teaches [fill in the blank with some sort of ludicrous claim]”, being called to task for proclaiming this without any source, then refusing to retract.

But banning, of course, is up to the Mods. 🤷
 
Oh, okay. Cuz he didn’t say “the Catholic Church teaches” at all, or anything like it.
 
Nope. Saying Catholics * seem to* think something from my point of view is hugely different from making an authoritative assertion about Church doctrine. All he did was set up a silly straw man.
 
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