Faith alone, not deeds, required for salvation, papal preacher tells pontiff!

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ble:
What does one make of this story? :hmmm:
catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=18021

Warmest regards,
-Ben
clouds.org
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Wonderful ! 😃​

That is the sort of Evangelical teaching that should be emphasised - that needs to be said, far more often.

I think this is particularly important:
  • “It is a special conversion that does not consist in abandoning the bad, but abandoning the good, in a way,” he said. “It means detaching oneself from everything one has done, repeating to oneself, ‘We are useless servants; we have done only what was required.’” my emphasis]
“Detachment from things of earth” is something we often pray for: and detachment even from the good we do by God’s grace is part of it. Detachment is essential, if “[we are to] decrease, so that He may increase” - for of ourselves we are nothing, nothing, & nothing. We cannot be thoroughly converted into Christ, our willing cannot be conformed to His Will, if we are not detached from self.

Thanks for posting that link 🙂 ##
 
Hi ble,

Well, I think the title was written to grab your attention (which it seems to have done), but I don’t think the priest said anything in his actual quotes that was incorrect.

The fact is that salvation IS a gift that we can’t earn, and he was just reminding these powerful men of the Church that they have not earned salvation through their service. They must rely on faith in Christ just like the lowest layperson, like the shepherd.

An obvious implication (as stated in the Book of James) is that true faith will inspire action which we should be moved to participate in. And God does value our actions (“that which you did for the least of these, you did for me”), but faith has to be the root of our actions. Otherwise, we are doing things for ourselves or for others to see.

Peace,
Gem
 
This is nonsense. Faith alone saves. Paul did not say anything like that. This priest is heretic! I know that’s not right. Nowhere in the catechism does it say that we are saved by faith alone. It doesn’t say that.

link
 
Another thing if the preacher said Faith alone is required then how do you explaint the following.
Letter of James
2:21-22
“Was not Abraham justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac on the alter? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith is completed by works.”

2:25
“And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot justified by works when she recieved the messengers and sent them out another way”?

Also when St. Paul was saying in Romans 3:28 “For we hold that man is justified by faith apart from works of the law”
He then added on in Romans 3:29 “Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the Gentiles also”?

Jimmy Akin points out that the in Hebrew the word for Law is Torah. In the old dead sea scrolls it says “works of the Law/Torah”. St. James wasn’t talking about “works of the Law/Torah”. We as Christians are saved by works of the Torah, therefore St. James wasn’t talking about the same of works St. Paul was when discussing justification.
 
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bones_IV:
Another thing if the preacher said Faith alone is required then how do you explaint the following.
Letter of James
2:21-22
“Was not Abraham justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac on the alter? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith is completed by works.”

2:25
“And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot justified by works when she recieved the messengers and sent them out another way”?

Also when St. Paul was saying in Romans 3:28 “For we hold that man is justified by faith apart from works of the law”
He then added on in Romans 3:29 “Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the Gentiles also”?

Jimmy Akin points out that the in Hebrew the word for Law is Torah. In the old dead sea scrolls it says “works of the Law/Torah”. St. James wasn’t talking about “works of the Law/Torah”. We as Christians are saved by works of the Torah, therefore St. James wasn’t talking about the same of works St. Paul was when discussing justification.
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If we could be saved by the works of the law, the argument in Romans would be completely destroyed.​

Works of the Law have nothing to do with Christians, nor Christians with works of the Law. The only good works we can do as Christians are those which have the charity of Christ as their motive power - they are useless and worthless otherwise; trash, in fact

Faith is the entrance to life in Christ - it includes everything else; so in that sense, we are certainly saved by faith alone. Besides, what the Reformers were concerned with, was to deny that good works can justify - faith alone justifies, works do not: not if they are the works of the unjustified. They are utterly worthess for justification. ##
 
There are two types of “faith” spoken of in Sacred Scripture. One is “fide informis” which is not salvific and is condemned in James 2:24. This is the mere intellectual assent type of faith. Lip service, in other words.

The other type of faith, referred to in Galatians 5:6, is “fide formatta” and is salvific. It is faith formed in charity. Real faith. Faith that expresses itself in works! Just look at Matthew 25 where Jesus describes Judgement Day where He will separate everyone into two groups: Those going to heaven (sheep) and those going to hell (goats). What are His criteria? Works! We cannot do works, however, without God’s grace. That’s why we Catholics claim that we are saved “Sola Gratia” or “Saved by Grace Alone.”

So, the bottom line is, when we’re talking about the term “saved by faith” we must know which type of faith we mean. “Fide informis” or “Fide formatta.” Big difference!
 
Faith without works is useless.

Jesus himself gave testament to this by His actual being, dwelling among us. It’s not like Jesus came to earth & told everybody, “ok, believe in me - have faith” & they all just sat around & stared at Him & poof they were saved.

I believe this priest, like most, was being self-righteous. I don’t trust anyone that defends protestantism & it’s warped perception of christianity.
 
I think this is easy to misunderstand in the written word, which is a great argument against Sola Scriptura 😃 but more importantly it’s why you will see tons of very long thread debating this.

The two things that cause the most confusion IMHO are that in some places in the Bible, “works” means the procedural/legal stuff people were doing at the time of Paul, which are not relevant to salvation.

The second bigger confusion IMHO is that good works, are an effect of our faith, not a primal cause of our salvation. When the Catholic Church teaches " One is not saved by good works, but one cannot be saved without good works", it really means that the good works are the evidence of one’s faith. So while it is true that the most concise answer is that salvation comes “by faith through grace”, if you don’t have evidence of the faith through good works, then the faith is not there:

#1021 CCC: “each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith” - TRUE (of course!!) - works are the measure of your faith, so both will be evident.

#2005 - We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved - TRUE - saying that works without faith does not save us.

#1651 - They should be encouraged to listen to the Word of God, to attend the Sacrifice of the Mass, to persevere in prayer, to contribute to works of charity and to community efforts for justice, to bring up their children in the Christian faith, to cultivate the spirit and practice of penance and thus implore, day by day, God’s grace. - TRUE - evidence of faith

#1697 - for it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life; - TRUE - even though it doesn’t mention “works”, because faith through grace saves us.

It’s very easy to misinterpret especially when relying on the written word.
 
God rewards our perseverance in good works if performed under the advocacy of God’s grace (e.g., Rom 2:5-6, Heb.5:9, etc.); however, if we approach God with our ‘good’ works claiming that God owes us salvation, then we are clearly attempting to obligate God as if He were indebted to us. I do not believe that the good papal preacher said anything contrary to the Catholic faith, and in fact, he is correct that our pastors have often times failed to emphasize the gratuitousness of God coming to us.

Just ask any Catholic whether they are going to heaven or not. The majority of Catholics (and I’m talking about those who attend Mass regularly and are considered ‘practicing’ Catholics), if asked if they think they are going to heaven, will say something to the effect of “Yeah, I believe I’m going to heaven because I have lead a pretty good life,” or “I hope so, I mean, it’s not like I’ve killed anybody,” or “I’ve tried my best.” Seldom does anybody mention the sheer goodness and mercy of God. In fact, I remember hearing about a survey where the respondents seldom if ever mentioned that they thought they were going to heaven because of their the sure hope is in Jesus and the mercy of God to forgive their failings, that they have repented of their sins, or they trust in His death on the cross for the frgiveness of their sins, or by His grace they hope to be saved; i.e., they say nothing of the Blood shed for their redemption, nothing of the sacrifice. There is nothing necessarily wrong with an answer such as, “I have lived the best I could” if it includes something like, “I have lived the best I could with the help of God’s grace, and wherever I have failed, I have repented and acknowledged my guilt that I may be absolved of my sins.” You see, the problem with the other answers is that people assume that our sins are not that bad and God will somehow overlook them. Answers like mentioned above “I hope to go to heaven, I mean, it’s not like I’ve killed anybody” is a minimalist and legalistic approach. He may have not killed anybody, but has he exercised hate against his brother? Or “I hope to go to heaven, I mean, it’s not like I’ve cheated on my wife” all the while rationalizing that occasional internet porn.

In Christ,
Irenaeus
 
We are saved by grace.

Faith and good works come by the grace of God. We cannot claim either as something we have brought about, except by our willing cooperation with God’s work in us. As the catechism states, when the Church speaks of “merit”, it must be understood to be the merit of grace – Christ’s merit in us. Therefore, there is no room for boasting on our part.
 
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bones_IV:
This is nonsense. Faith alone saves. Paul did not say anything like that. This priest is heretic! I know that’s not right. Nowhere in the catechism does it say that we are saved by faith alone. It doesn’t say that.

link
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And neither does St. Paul. The only place in Scripture that qualifies faith with alone is in the Epistle of James. Jas;2:24) See Galations 6:2) or Romans 2:6-7) Matt. 25:34-40)
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## If we could be saved by the works of the law, the argument in Romans would be completely destroyed.

Works of the Law have nothing to do with Christians, nor Christians with works of the Law. The only good works we can do as Christians are those which have the charity of Christ as their motive power - they are useless and worthless otherwise; trash, in fact

Faith is the entrance to life in Christ - it includes everything else; so in that sense, we are certainly saved by faith alone. Besides, what the Reformers were concerned with, was to deny that good works can justify - faith alone justifies, works do not: not if they are the works of the unjustified. They are utterly worthess for justification. ##/QUOTE

How do you handle this? For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS of the law who will be justified. (Romans 2:13)

For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law) Romans 3:28)
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Faith alone, or Faith plus Works

James 2:24
James 2:26
Gal 5:6
1 Cor. 13:2
2 Thess. 2:15
2 Thess 3:16
Code: 
                                   GOOD WORKS
Mt 7:21
Mt 19:16-17
Jn 14:21
Rom 2:2-8
Gal 5: 4-6
Eph 2:8-10
Phil 2:12-13
Jas 2:14-24

“Both Paul and James speak of the works of love that one must add to his faith in order to be justified.”
" It is clear that, salvation is not by faith alone for either Paul or James."
 
If you think about it this way, the “faith alone” and the “faith + works” camp aren’t all that far apart - true faith produces works. That is the way that my Protestant friends and I “agree to disagree” about it.

I actually am glad to hear someone say that if we do all these things without faith, we are not saved. After years of teaching first communion and then working with confirmation classes where so many parents send their kids to get those sacraments taken care of and then never darken the door of the church until the next sacrament is due or until they want their child to marry in the church or have their quinceanera or whatever, I am glad to hear someone emphasize that St. Peter won’t be accepting all of our certificates (of baptism, confirmation, etc.) in lieu of genuine faith for entry into heaven.
 
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