Faith Alone: One for the files

[Joshua2006]

On a serious note…

My mother was a Messianic Jew.
She converted to Catholicism when I was very young.

I was raised in the Catholic Church, altar boy, was even going to be a priest.

But the Church seldom taught scripture.
It was Church dogma.
As a matter of fact, I cannot remember being taught scripture by the Catholic schools until I was well in my teens.
I was taught alot of rituals…long prayers that I said over and over.
(Like God cannot hear the first time, I suppose we have to repeat it…)

As I grew older, I started reading scripture and found some serious flaws in the Churches teachings.

Grace, attonement, covenants etc.

I realized that God’s plan had become full circle as it did with the jews…
Like the Jews and the Temple, the law was ‘nullified’, it’s purpose corrupted and replaced with long prayers, rituals and the people, blindly followed ritual and not the word of God.

Now, this is not a new thing.
The Pharisees did the same thing.
Over thousands of years, the purpose of the temple became a business, an ‘icon’, loosing it’s purpose.

The Church is a place to spread the Gospel.
Not a place to sit and repeat rituals over and over.

Yes…I am Catholic.
But I am a Christian first.

I know that is shocking to many ‘orthodox Catholics’.
But it was shocking to the Orthordox jews when Yeshua spread His message.

They threw Him out of the Temple and they killed Him for it.
Why should I expect any less?

Josh

 

[GregoryPalamas]

On a serious note…

My mother was a Messianic Jew.
She converted to Catholicism when I was very young.

I was raised in the Catholic Church, altar boy, was even going to be a priest.

But the Church seldom taught scripture.
It was Church dogma.
As a matter of fact, I cannot remember being taught scripture by the Catholic schools until I was well in my teens.
I was taught alot of rituals…long prayers that I said over and over.
(Like God cannot hear the first time, I suppose we have to repeat it…)

As I grew older, I started reading scripture and found some serious flaws in the Churches teachings.

Grace, attonement, covenants etc.

I realized that God’s plan had become full circle as it did with the jews…
Like the Jews and the Temple, the law was ‘nullified’, it’s purpose corrupted and replaced with long prayers, rituals and the people, blindly followed ritual and not the word of God.

Now, this is not a new thing.
The Pharisees did the same thing.
Over thousands of years, the purpose of the temple became a business, an ‘icon’, loosing it’s purpose.

The Church is a place to spread the Gospel.
Not a place to sit and repeat rituals over and over.

Yes…I am Catholic.
But I am a Christian first.

I know that is shocking to many ‘orthodox Catholics’.
But it was shocking to the Orthordox jews when Yeshua spread His message.

They killed Him for it.
Why should I expect any less?
Josh

Self pity is a sin. Hubris is as well. Please read the Canons on Justification from Trent. I am sorry that you did not learn what was taught in the Church and have had to find your way toward the truth by getting mixed up with the false teachings in which you now wallow. We will keep you close to Christ through our prayers until you come back home. Believe me there is far more Scripture used in a single Mass or Divine Liturgy, and that properly taught and used, than in a years worth of Protestant groups. I know. For 27 years I was a Protestant minister.

CDL

 

[Newbie2]

It is by faith you are saved, not of works.
Either Paul, a former Pharisee and Jew, was correct…or he was a liar and apostate…
You can’t have it both ways.
Joshua

Can you quote one instance of Catholic dogma, in context, that says that man is saved through his works?

If any one here, thinks in their wildest imagination, that you can ‘work’ your way to Heaven, your the false teachers.

Josh

That’s right, and that’s consistent with Catholic dogma.

 

[montanaman]

Phtppt. Another coward too weak to either have the courage of his convictions and leave, or just plain-old evil.

 

[Joshua2006]

You have been told.
I have done my job.
Shalom
Josh

 

[MrS]

On a serious note…

My mother was a Messianic Jew.
She converted to Catholicism when I was very young.

I was raised in the Catholic Church, altar boy, was even going to be a priest.

But the Church seldom taught scripture.
It was Church dogma.
As a matter of fact, I cannot remember being taught scripture by the Catholic schools until I was well in my teens.
I was taught alot of rituals…long prayers that I said over and over.
(Like God cannot hear the first time, I suppose we have to repeat it…)

As I grew older, I started reading scripture and found some serious flaws in the Churches teachings.

Grace, attonement, covenants etc.

I realized that God’s plan had become full circle as it did with the jews…
Like the Jews and the Temple, the law was ‘nullified’, it’s purpose corrupted and replaced with long prayers, rituals and the people, blindly followed ritual and not the word of God.

Now, this is not a new thing.
The Pharisees did the same thing.
Over thousands of years, the purpose of the temple became a business, an ‘icon’, loosing it’s purpose.

The Church is a place to spread the Gospel.
Not a place to sit and repeat rituals over and over.

Yes…I am Catholic.
But I am a Christian first.

I know that is shocking to many ‘orthodox Catholics’.
But it was shocking to the Orthordox jews when Yeshua spread His message.

They threw Him out of the Temple and they killed Him for it.
Why should I expect any less?

Josh

Seldom taught scripture??? Guess you must have slept thru all the Masses you “might” have attended. Even a priest who is not very strong in his preaching skills, most often will teach somebody in the pews something.

In the area of atonement… I am safe in saying that outside the Catholic Church there is little or no correct understanding of the atonement. Most protestants (you have become one, unfortunately) can’t see past a limited atonement.

Unless you believe all, that is ALL, that Christ said you cannot even claim to be a true Christian. (start with the proper understanding of John 6 without the man-made interpretations outside of Jesus’ Church)

 

[Joshua2006]

Yeshua was correct when He said…

Mark 7:6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 “For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

[MrS]

Not only not Catholic, I see you are also not christian.

As has been said earlier… repent and come home.

God will wait for you until your dying breath.

.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

You have been told.
I have done my job.
Shalom
Josh

No Catholic would ever treat his brothers or sisters in this way. I was going to try to empathize with you but I am now beginning to think you are just playing us when you claim to be Catholic.

Let me assume…and it’s a stretch…that you told us the truth when you told us that you were an altar boy and had seriously considered the priesthood. If this is the case the Lord has laid his hand on you in a special way. That is the holiest of callings. If God has really called you to the priesthood then it is clear that you are running away from that calling. That is not a good thing. You will be miserable until surrending to His calling. As long as you run and as often as you kick against the pricks you will be increasingly miserable. If this is a true calling please say yes to God.

CDL

 

[Joshua2006]

I gave you scripture.
Perhaps, you should ask God Himself if I speak the truth.
Or better yet, if the scriptures speak the truth.
I can do no more for you.
Shalom
Josh

 

[MrS]

I gave your scripture.
Perhaps, you should ask God imself if I speak the truth.
I can do no more for you.
Josh

Your words contradict those of God. So that question is answered.

You can do a lot more for yourself though. Pray is the best and first suggestion.

Then read the Early Fathers to see what the Catholic Church taught then… and you will be suprised to learn that all your church shopping will eventually lead you back to the Truth of the Catholic Church… in God’s time, not mine or yours.

.

 

[Joshua2006]

Your words contradict those of God. So that question is answered.

You can do a lot more for yourself though. Pray is the best and first suggestion.

Then read the Early Fathers to see what the Catholic Church taught then… and you will be suprised to learn that all your church shopping will eventually lead you back to the Truth of the Catholic Church… in God’s time, not mine or yours.

.

If the scripture I presented contridicts the word of God, show me where.
Scripture will not adjunicate man’s dogma, only God’s word.
In as far as ‘Church shopping’, I have a ‘Church’, it’s called the Church of Yeshua (Jesus Christ)
When man’s dogma overrides God’s word, then it becomes no more than what the Temple became.
If you fail to understand this, then as I told one person.
Ask God Himself.
He has an open 24 hour line.

Shalom
Josh

 

[GregoryPalamas]

If the scripture I presented contridicts the word of God, show me where.
Scripture will not adjunicate man’s dogma, only God’s word.
In as far as ‘Church shopping’, I have a ‘Church’, it’s called the Church of Yeshua (Jesus Christ)
When man’s dogma overrides God’s word, then it becomes no more than what the Temple became.
If you fail to understand this, then as I told one person.
Ask God Himself.
He has an open 24 hour line.

Shalom
Josh

The Hound of Heaven will track you down. You will fight and attack the very people who would love you into life just as you have done here. But the Holy Spirit will not let you go. You will not escape His calling. Stop running. Repent and surrender to Him.

CDL

 

[guanophore]

If any one here, thinks in their wildest imagination, that you can ‘work’ your way to Heaven, your the false teachers.

Well, I have not met anyone that does. However, it is interesting to note that you have made these assumptions about us. In addition to being disingenuous, it appears you are also prejudiced.

Paul, Peter and the Apostles taught a Gospel of repentence and faith in Christ Jesus.

Indeed! Never separated from obedience, I may note.

I hope you can learn something here, instead of getting yourself banned for disrespect.

On a serious note…

My mother was a Messianic Jew.
She converted to Catholicism when I was very young.

I was raised in the Catholic Church, altar boy, was even going to be a priest.

But the Church seldom taught scripture.

Where was your mind during Mass?

It was Church dogma.
As a matter of fact, I cannot remember being taught scripture by the Catholic schools until I was well in my teens.

Sadly, this is not uncommon. However, the NT is Church dogma. There is no contradiction between the Teachings whether they are written or oral.

I was taught alot of rituals…long prayers that I said over and over.
(Like God cannot hear the first time, I suppose we have to repeat it…)

Clearly you were praying in vain, your heart far from God.

As I grew older, I started reading scripture and found some serious flaws in the Churches teachings.

It is good that you are reading scripture, since ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ. If you keep reading and studying, you will find thatt there are no flaws in the Church teachings.

Like the Jews and the Temple, the law was ‘nullified’, it’s purpose corrupted and replaced with long prayers, rituals and the people, blindly followed ritual and not the word of God.

I think it is a bit of hubris to assume that, since it was empty and blind for you, that it is that way for everyone. I made the same mistake at about the same point in my life.

The Church is a place to spread the Gospel.
Not a place to sit and repeat rituals over and over.

That all depends, I suppose, on what type of “church:” you attend. There is a part of the Divine Liturgy where the Deacon says in a loud voice “the doors! the Doors!” It is a reference to putting out the catechumens and inquirers so that they are not admitted to the Divine Mysteries. For Catholics, Church is a place to enter worship. The world is the place to spread the gospel.

Yes…I am Catholic.
But I am a Christian first.

There is no distinction between the two. However, it is clear that you are not Catholic. You may have been baptized Catholic, but you never learned the faith, and you now apparently have Protestant ideas. Perhaps you have not joined a Protestant denomination yet?

I know that is shocking to many ‘orthodox Catholics’.
But it was shocking to the Orthordox jews when Yeshua spread His message.

Oh, dear…
hubris.

They threw Him out of the Temple and they killed Him for it.
Why should I expect any less?

If you get thrown out of here it will be because you are breaking the forum rules, not because anyone here is “shocked” by your arrogance. We get it every day here!

 

[Joshua2006]

“If you get thrown out of here it will be because you are breaking the forum rules, not because anyone here is “shocked” by your arrogance. We get it every day here!”

I have shown no arrogance.
Only showed scripture to disapprove you.

If you wish to know how the concept of ‘works’ got into the Catholic Church…one has to read the history of the writings of Paul, James, Justin Martrye etc.

But just for the exercise.

Rewind tape to the first century Church.
(It’s easy to research…no secret…)

Peter was the defacto leader of the early Church of Jeruselum.
He was later replaced by James.
James lead a small sect of followers of Yeshua who worshiped in the Temple.

Peter ate with the gentiles as recorded in scripture.
This was against Jewish custom and teaching of both association and foods.

James meanwhile, is suggesting ‘works’ and faith as the gospel.
This was primarily due to Torah Law and Pauls Gospel of ‘faith without works is dead.’

The Jeruselum church went as far to say you must be cicumcised to be saved.
Another Mosiac requirement.

James wrote "Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God (with circumcision), but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood. "

The strangling of animals was forbidden under Mosiac law.
Note that James, is adhereing to jewish custom in regard to the ‘law’, where Paul preaches ‘faith’ alone, now known as the Pauline doctrine.

Paul writes "Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. I went up in response to a revelation. Then I laid before them (though only in a private meeting with the acknowledged leaders) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure that I was not in running, or had not run, in vain. But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
But because of false believers (Legalists) secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might enslave us – we did not submit to them even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might always remain with you. And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders (what they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality) – these leaders contributed nothing to me.

He goes to say…
"On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked throughout me in sending me to the Gentiles), "

So here you see basically two factions.
One, Paul preaching to the Gentiles who have never been under the ‘law’ (Torah).

James…who is still adhereing to the Torah and practicing in the Temple.

Paul writes…
"But when Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned; for until certain people came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But after they came, he drew back and kept himself separate for fear of the circumcision faction (Legalists). And the other Jews joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not acting consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, ‘If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like the Jews?’ "

This was the first confrontation of ‘works’ and ‘faith’…

So, may I suggest, unless your are a Jew, if your going to follow the Torah, then follow it all…

As Paul Harvey says, 'Now you have the rest of the story."

'The just shall live by faith."
Josh

 

[guanophore]

"guanophore:

If you get thrown out of here it will be because you are breaking the forum rules, not because anyone here is “shocked” by your arrogance. We get it every day here!

I have shown no arrogance.
Only showed scripture to disapprove you.

Has it occurred to you that it might seem disrespecful to come into our house and immediately begin “disapproving”? You have made it clear that you don’t even understand what we believe! Yet you can begin “disapproving”?

News flash, Josh. Catholics wrote the NT. That is why nothing in the NT is in contradiction with Catholic doctrine.

If you wish to know how the concept of ‘works’ got into the Catholic Church…one has to read the history of the writings of Paul, James, Justin Martrye etc.

But just for the exercise.

Rewind tape to the first century Church.
(It’s easy to research…no secret…)

Peter was the defacto leader of the early Church of Jeruselum.
He was later replaced by James.

Can you please show where you see this in your Bible? I cannot find anywhere that says Peter was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem?

James lead a small sect of followers of Yeshua who worshiped in the Temple.

Peter ate with the gentiles as recorded in scripture.
This was against Jewish custom and teaching of both association and foods.

James meanwhile, is suggesting ‘works’ and faith as the gospel.
This was primarily due to Torah Law and Pauls Gospel of ‘faith without works is dead.’

The Jeruselum church went as far to say you must be cicumcised to be saved.

Please show where this is documented in the Bible. You are now suggesting that the Apostles were contradicting one another, which did not happen.

James wrote "Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God (with circumcision), but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood. "

Please explain why, if Peter was the leader, James is the one who “reached the decision”?

The strangling of animals was forbidden under Mosiac law.
Note that James, is adhereing to jewish custom in regard to the ‘law’, where Paul preaches ‘faith’ alone, now known as the Pauline doctrine.

James is making a settlement for mixed communities, and asking the Gentiles not to scandalize their Jewish brethren. Paul does not preach “faith alone”, but if you think he does, can you tell me where you find the two words together in scripture “faith alone”?

So here you see basically two factions.
One, Paul preaching to the Gentiles who have never been under the ‘law’ (Torah).

No, Josh, the “factions” are only in your mind and heart. All the Apostles were in One Accord, had One Faith, and preached One Gospel.

James…who is still adhereing to the Torah and practicing in the Temple.

Well, so did Paul. Paul was a loyal Pharisee to his death. Being a fulfilled Jew is not the same as being “non-Christian”.

Please demonstrate in the NT where James was sill adhering to the Torah, and practicing in the Temple.

Paul writes…
"But when Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned; for until certain people came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But after they came, he drew back and kept himself separate for fear of the circumcision faction. And the other Jews joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not acting consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, ‘If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like the Jews?’ "

This was the first confrontation of ‘works’ and ‘faith’…

Actually, I think not. I think it was a confrontation on hypocrisy. Peter lived like a Gentile, as most likely James (by grace, and not under law). He acted against his beliefs, and Paul called him on it.

So, may I suggest, unless your are a Jew, if your going to follow the Torah, then follow it all…

'The just shall live by faith."
Josh

I see that you have been grossly misled by the Protestant congregation of which you are a part.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a sinner. Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God have mercy on me, a sinner. Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God have mercy on me, a sinner.

Friends,

Joshua has gone beyonds the bounds of mere sinning. He is apparently, by all indications an apostate. Simply, pray that God has mercy on ourselves and that the Holy Spirit continue to convict this sinner lest he has already gone too far.

CDL

 

[CentralFLJames]

It seems that lately all the threads are being hijacked by ultra-extremists. Are there any remaining people coming here who are sincerely looking for insights on Catholicism?

I am withdrawing from this thread. I just don’t have the authority to perform exorcisms nor the time to entertain those that are more in need of professional counseling than they are polemics and debate…

James

 

[GregoryPalamas]

It seems that lately all the threads are being hijacked by ultra-extremists. Are there any remaining people coming here who are sincerely looking for insights on Catholicism?

I am withdrawing from this thread. I just don’t have the authority to perform exorcisms nor the time to entertain those that are more in need of professional counseling than they are polemics and debate…

James

Well said, and I’ll join you.

CDL

 

[TylerM]

Joshua,