Faith alone or Faith plus works?

[Shannon9791]

Ephesians 2:8-9 "God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can’t take credit for that, it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done,so none of us cane boast about it.

How is what I said only in the teachings of men?
What is your take of Ephesians 2:8-9?

It seems you’re not looking at the whole picture. What does Eph 2:10 say?
For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
If you need more explanation you need to see post #11. It’s awfully convenient that you leave off the part that says one should live in the works God has prepared for us.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him: being abominable and incredulous and to every good work reprobate.

Does this apply to this discussion?

 

[FRANK1046]

Protestants:

I am currently having a faith discussion with well-versed baptists boy… He is an excellent talker, but sometimes his explanations of what he believes loses me. Could you please explain where you stand and what scripture supports your view of Faith (or sometimes referred to as grace) alone? why do you think works effect salvation?

Catholics:

Likewise, I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?
Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10 that seems along with most of Romans that seems to promote the Protestant view of salvation?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

I say to you,That you can’t have one without the other.Having Faith and good deeds go had and had.What you do for the least,You do for me.

 

[PILY_MX]

Faith, the way i understand it… It’s a grace we all have as a gift from God but many times it’s on “stand by” mode. This grace has to be turn off so God can work within you as well as trough you to help people.
Within you: #1- by believing you can do things you don’t believe you can do, ex, by believing you can talk infront of a lot of people when you have always being shy, or going back to school when you always believed you were not smart. #2- by believing he works trough the Sacraments to improve your spirit and making you strong to keep believing.

Trough you: so you can believe the sick, depresed, alcoholic etc… Person you know can get healed trough the gospel, word of God you can take to him or her. Believing you can take the kingdom of God to your friendster and family so God can fix all things beyond your control and human limits.

Faith is a grace we put to work. If you go to confession and don’t believe you have been forgiven or communion and don’t believe we’ll have more of the spirit of jesus inside you… You won’t get the full benefit from it…

Why don’t you start your experience with faith by simply doing the following… Tonight, at the time of your night prayer… Alone in your room… Talk to god trully believing that HE IS THERE… Little by little you’ll be ready to have faith in greater things.

My little two cents…

 

[PILY_MX]

. I’m sorry, i made a mistake on my post… The fath is on " stand by mode" and has to be turn ON… ( not off as i mistakenly wrote ) ooops!! My mistake!! Sorry about that!!

All the rest it’s fine… Thanks

 

[FRANK1046]

I say to you,That you can’t have one without the other.Having Faith and good deeds go hand and hand.What you do for the least,You do for me.

 

[mercygate]

Sounds like hee admittance, repentance, and believed. Things people need to do to come to Christ. No works were required afterwards. I know he died shortly after. But he would not have gone to paradise if they were necessary. Sufficiency! Part of the faith baby!

Third Day, Good Job! You sound like a Baptist!

Walking in good works is how the faith-life is manifested in the normal course of events. The Thief had no time.

This event is the paradigm of Our Lord’s great mercy, even at the last moment of a sinner’s life. I do not see the Thief as an illustration of faith versus works theology. It is an illustration of Our Lord’s boundless mercy in response to the least sign of faith, even from a soul in duress. The Catholic and Orthodox Traditions are replete with stories of deathbed conversions, and to suggest that these negate the role of good works in Christian life is to reject the witness of Scripture.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Hi, All of You!

It seems to me, from what I know of pure Catholic teaching, that it is a mistake to think of faith plus works as leading, somehow harnassed together, to salvation.

A Catholic friend of mine from the Dominican Republic habitually and gracefully phrases the “formula” of salvation thus, Salvation comes by faith working in love. Our works cannot save, but “faith” that does not bear fruit (works pleasing to God) is not living and active faith, but rather simply the Nominal Faith of so many Protestants and, even more so, of sectaries. We are saved by real and living faith, not by a Nominalist faith that isolates what really is no more than mere belief (or what such false teachers accuse Catholics of teaching faith to be summarised as “mere assent”, which only amounts to the same thing) from the active and living faith that is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

“Faith alone” formulae of so many Protestants and of the sectaries (Baptists, Pentecostalists, et alia) reeks of the late Mediaeval philosophical school of Nominalism which so strongly influenced the Reformers. Their “faith alone” formulae really are expressions of that limited and inadequate mindset of philosphical Nominalist thinking, rather than expressions derived from what the Bible itself teaches as constituting Saving Faith.

Faith saves, but the kind of faith that saves is living faith, active in good. Faith that is inactive, which is merely assent, which is merely an isolated concept, is dead, is not what the Holy Ghost truly bestows as God’s Gift of Saving Faith. Such dead, formal faith is no ground for salvation.

Well, I hope that I have this right!

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[SteveVH]

Hi, All of You!

It seems to me, from what I know of pure Catholic teaching, that it is a mistake to think of faith plus works as leading, somehow harnassed together, to salvation.

A Catholic friend of mine from the Dominican Republic habitually and gracefully phrases the “formula” of salvation thus, Salvation comes by faith working in love. Our works cannot save, but “faith” that does not bear fruit (works pleasing to God) is not living and active faith, but rather simply the Nominal Faith of so many Protestants and, even more so, of sectaries. We are saved by real and living faith, not by a Nominalist faith that isolates what really is no more than mere belief (or what such false teachers accuse Catholics of teaching faith to be summarised as “mere assent”, which only amounts to the same thing) from the active and living faith that is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

“Faith alone” formulae of so many Protestants and of the sectaries (Baptists, Pentecostalists, et alia) reeks of the late Mediaeval philosophical school of Nominalism which so strongly influenced the Reformers. Their “faith alone” formulae really are expressions of that limited and inadequate mindset of philosphical Nominalist thinking, rather than expressions derived from what the Bible itself teaches as constituting Saving Faith.

Faith saves, but the kind of faith that saves is living faith, active in good. Faith that is inactive, which is merely assent, which is merely an isolated concept, is dead, is not what the Holy Ghost truly bestows as God’s Gift of Saving Faith. Such dead, formal faith is no ground for salvation.

Well, I hope that I have this right!

Pax, Jerry Parker

Sounds like you’ve got it to me!

 

[aspirant]

A Catholic friend of mine from the Dominican Republic habitually and gracefully phrases the “formula” of salvation thus, Salvation comes by faith working in love… Faith saves, but the kind of faith that saves is living faith, active in good. Faith that is inactive, which is merely assent, which is merely an isolated concept, is dead, is not what the Holy Ghost truly bestows as God’s Gift of Saving Faith. Such dead, formal faith is no ground for salvation.

Correct!

“Faith alone” formulae of so many Protestants and of the sectaries (Baptists, Pentecostalists, et alia) reeks of the late Mediaeval philosophical school of Nominalism which so strongly influenced the Reformers.

For anyone interested in digging deeper into the effects of Nominalist philosophy on the theology of the Reformers, see Louis Bouyer’s The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism and Servais Pinckaers’ Sources of Christian Ethics (esp. chapters 14 &15).

 

[boeck249]

Keep in mind that most protestants also believe in once saved always saved. there is really no necessity to continue with good works after being saved. If Protestants admitted good works are are necessary for salvation, then they would also have reexamine the once saved always saved Doctrine.
Remeber… The kingdom of god is likened to a wedding feast many are invited but few were chosen. see Matthew 22 1- 14. The point is that invitations must be acted upon in order to receive the present. If you do not chose attend the feast you will not receive the gift. likewise if you are not properly dressed you will not be able to attend. We can not earn an invitation and no amount work will force the master to invite us. rather we perform works to make sure that we will be present at the feast.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Boeck249,

You wrote: *Keep in mind that most protestants also believe in once saved always saved. There is really no necessity to continue with good works after being saved. If Protestants admitted good works are are necessary for salvation, then they would also have reexamine the once saved always saved Doctrine.

Reme[m]ber… The kingdom of God is likened to a wedding feast [to which] many are invited but few were chosen. See Matthew 22 1- 14. The point is that invitations must be acted upon in order to receive the present. If you do not chose attend the feast you will not receive the gift. Likewise if you are not properly dressed you will not be able to attend. We can not earn an invitation and no amount work will force the master to invite us. Rather we perform works to make sure that we will be present at the feast. *​

This is good, to a point. However, the teaching of the “Arminian” sectaries (Baptists, Penties, et al.) looms larger in the Gringhistani (American) context than it does elsewhere. The primordial and most numerous Protestants, the Lutherans, do not accept the doctrine of Eternal Security, rejecting that pernicious kind of thought as utterly deceived (and deceiving), sectarian false doctrine. If one accepts the dogma of the Perseverance of the Saints, i.e. that those saved die in the Holy Faith, then “once saved, always saved” is, of course, nonsense. Calvinists are not so clear on this matter as Lutherans are, but they, too, believe in the doctrine of Final Perseverance.

The “Arminians”, believing that they are saved by their own free act of the will (and rejecting Lutheranism’s, Calvinism’s, and Catholicism’s doctrines of Predestination, Election, and Final Perseverance) hold their besotted teaching of “Eternal Security” since they believe that it is their own free act of acceptance of Christ as Saviour that saves, rather than God’s Own divinely free choice of them to be saved with the faith and grace to persevere that He grants unconditionally to them.

Anyway, that is just to clear up a misunderstanding of what genuine Protestantism teaches, which is much closer to Catholic teaching (cf., for example, Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange’s Predestination), according to St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, than most Catholics realise. There is no biblical excuse, however, for the errors of either the Protestants or the much worse ones of the “Arminian” sectaries.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[CatholicFireman]

y’all don’t know how much all of this is helping me. I really appreciate the links and they seem wonderful. I can’t imagine what he is going to say back to any of this when we meet this week. I wish that there was some way that I could make him see my point without the barriers of religions. I think half the arguement about salvation starts with predigests and people looks at what is truely written. Thank You! && if anyone can find more example within the bible and interpretation of those I would be forever thankful.

All comments are loved!
~Cee

I guess you can invite him to join this forum. I’m sure he will enjoy it. He’ll get to express his views and listen to Catholic’s views…some with more experience at this than you or I.

Pax†

 

[guanophore]

Too bad there is justification neither in the Bible nor the Early Church for that position. Only in the teachings of men.

As you continue your studies, I think you will find that what Rev Kev has written is, indeed, the position of the Catholic Church. You might find the Joint Declaration helpful in this regard.

I pray that you come home to the only Church that Jesus ever established.

Rev Kev is actually more Catholic than a lot of Catholics I know!

 

[guanophore]

Is this meant to imply that there are works not of the old Mosaic law by which you are now saved?

Indeed, there it is by a work not of the Old Mosaic law by which we are now saved.

 

[guanophore]

**
-Just another thought for both Catholics and Protestants, the idea of salvation (or how we attain it) causes me the most trouble and it is where most of this discussion comes from. Now my well-versed friend is very convinced that a person who has excepted Jesus into his etc should be confident that he is going to heaven and believes that since Catholics are not sure and question is they are “saved” that that intern works against our salvation. Any thoughts? and why do each believe the way they do?**

Thanks! ~ Cee

Indeed, this is the crux of the matter. The Apostles taught that salvation is something that has completed elements (you have been saved) present elements (you are being saved) and elements that have not yet occurred (you will be saved). Modern day evangelicals tend to zero in on the past elements exclusively, ignoring the other two. Scripture enjoins us to “examine yourselves, whether you are in Christ”, and we know that no one is saved who is not “in Him”.

This is the crux of another Reformation error, that one cannot become separated from Christ by sin after he is “saved”. the nature of sin has not changed. Sin still separates us from God, this side of the cross, as well as the other. Many misuderstand God’s love for us with salvation. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. His undying love for us does not mean that we are all going to be saved. True, nothing can separate us from His love, but in His love is freedom, and we will walk right through the gates of hell, while he grieves the loss of us.

 

[guanophore]

Third Day, first let me say thank you for all the posts and information. And I understand what you are saying, however I have tried that route with him and have found they have a way around it. They are saved by grace and that grace comes by accepting Jesus. So when you tell him nowhere in the bible does it say that you merely accept Jesus as your savior and are saved, he instead pulls out verses saying that you are saved by grace then another verse that says that grace comes from accepting Jesus. Do you see where it is hard to battle?

Yes, indeed. It is a difference in the way theology is formed. Catholics receive the Gospel from the Apostles, through their authorized successors. Protestants rejected this Source of the faith during the Reformation, and now extract doctrine from scripture, in separation from the Sacred Tradition that produced it. For this reason, there can be as many different interpretations of doctrine as there are belly buttons. Sound doctrine is received, not extracted. Of course a person can pull out a verse here and a verse there to support pretty much any position. Some can “prove” that Jesus is not God, some “prove” that there is no Trinity, some “prove” that we should still be celebrating the Seventh Day as the Sabbath. While none of these doctrines came from the Apostles, people still "find"them in Scripture. The problem lies in how one comes to the Truth. Catholics believe that the Truth was revealed, and is passed down through those ordained (authorized). It is received, not derived.

 

[TimeToGrow]

Protestants:

Catholics:

Likewise, I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

Hello Misscee

You truly have a task, I might can help but maybe I can’t
For years I thought about many things written in the bible and considered some of the different things others say and believe. It’s so easy to pick a book up like the bible and read in it things that appeal to justify what we desire of its words. Context and perspective is all too critical at times for the mature believer, but there is simplicity in the child that can truly only understand and grasp within its limits.

The Faith and works issue will always be there for some and the reason we give at times can be tainted with a perspective of others. Things such as loyalty to parents or church are not any different from a Catholic in many ways. The form it seems is consistent historically in the behavior of people.

In our time where a book like the Bible gets read, it often is read without knowledge or consideration of the time of its setting. Truly looking in the scripture and reading verses that justify belief to save our self’s can often be a selfish thing because we’re doing it for just that most the time. I believe to save my hide. IN a time when even saying Christ name brought certain action a lot of time ill. Believing and professing was a legitimate form of works. You were in fact laying it all on the line because the fear of persecution was very real and not just ridicule. One might ask is it the same today? Could be, depends on where you say Jesus Christ is Lord. Self preservation is the primary goal it seems today as what loving parent wouldn’t desire to have such a thing.

You might ask him why he says he believes he’s saved.

You see in the times of the Apostles the Gospel was preached to the Jew first and they didn’t believe for the most part as some claim today. They actually began to understand how Christ had fulfilled the promises of their scripture. They didn’t believe to just save their hides because it put their hides on the chopping block. Many had saw Christ works and it caused them to question what they thought they understood.

Here are some verses that might give insight.

Matt 8:
5 And when he had entered into Capharnaum, there came to him a centurion, beseeching him,6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, and is grieviously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith to him: I will come and heal him. 8 And the centurion making answer, said: Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof: but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel.

To help explain a little further as there can be many things derived from such scripture but basically in the end of what I have put here in verse 10 is about faith. Most consider faith as something to do with truth but it isn’t always that way. In considering these verses one should as how a Roman General has a faith not found in all of Israel and that is including the Apostles who are witnessing these events. Christ Marveled. His god was Pagan. What sets our faith apart from the roman soldiers is the Works we do. But notice verse 9. His faith was derived from his understanding of Authority which was core to the Roman Empire. But was he saved having his faith maybe down the road he became a convert. But his faith was enough for Christ to send those under him probably and Angel to heal the man’s servant and friend.

Here is another… This is great for our faith and works.

46 And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say? 47 Every one that cometh to me, and heareth my words, and doth them, I will shew you to whom he is like. 48 He is like to a man building a house, who digged deep, and laid the foundation upon a rock. And when a flood came, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and it could not shake it; for it was founded on a rock. 49 But he that heareth, and doth not, is like to a man building his house upon the earth without a foundation: against which the stream beat vehemently, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.

This has nothing to do with because we are saved or baptized that makes who we say we are or what we are. but there are those who shall suffer a ruin…

You can’t call Christ your Lord and do not the things he say’s (WORKS). It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit directing us even though it does. Christ is talking about our desire. You can’t say you believe in Christ and not do the things HE commands. The entire Churches Beliefs structure is Build on the Premise that they believe who he was BECAUSE of his works. They didn’t believe to save their Hide. They were believing because the works he had done… You couldn’t fill a book with all he did and said. The very conversion process in the beginning of the Church was the Works were the first things people noticed. They initiated the Primary cause of response from the Believer.

 Why would you believe that believing somebody would save your life when saying his name or recognising something might just well end it.  We surely live in distorted time. You can surely see that the faith and works of that spoken with stands the storms and as a testimony of our faith many storms have beat against its wall..

Peace and Godbless

 

[jmcrae]

Rev Kev is actually more Catholic than a lot of Catholics I know!

And far more Catholic than any other Baptist I have ever encountered.

 

[guanophore]

Catholics:

Likewise, I am having a hard time explaining the Catholic view on Faith alone versus Faith & Works. What scripture supports the Catholic view? and how do we interpret it?

I think it is an error to fall into the “vs” mentality. The real issue, as has been mentioned above, is the quality of saving faith. Saving faith is faith that works. It is not characterized by saying “Lord, Lord”, yet not doing His commandments. Saving faith is obedient, and causes the person to abide in Him.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

I also do not think it is helpful to use the phrase in teh title of this thread - faith plus works. This implies that they are separate and distinct, which is not the case. faith is the glove, and love working is the hand in the glove. It is more accurate to say that we are saved by faith, faith that obeys, faith that works through love.

Also, how do Catholics respond to Ephesians 2:8-10 that seems along with most of Romans that seems to promote the Protestant view of salvation?

All comments appreciated! ~ Cee

It is a mistake to develop a theology or soteriology based upon one or even several verses of scripture. All scripture must be understood in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught.

What most evangelicals fail to do is read on through v. 10, stopping at Eph 2:8-9. Again, the grace that saves us cannot be separated from the grace that produces in us the good works he has prepared for us.

The assumption that we are saved before death is called the sin of presumption. The Apostles taught that it is for God to judge us, and although we can have confident hope when we walk in Him, it is not our decision, but his. Here, the Apostle counsels that the OSAS (once saved always saved) idea is “immature”.

Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Php 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

He strains, he presses, he holds true, but he does not presume upon God that he is already saved. The mature believer looks at salvation this way - that we have not already arrived.

Here the Apostle again defers the matter of salvation to the Almighty:

1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
1Co 4:4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

He attempts to walk with a clear conscience, but also knows that he is not the final judge of his own sou, only God is. He may not be conscious of any sins, b ut God, who judges the heart, will reveal all those things when we depart this life. He entrusts his soul to a faithful creator.

Finally, the reason faith is never “alone” is becasuse it is always accompanied by love and hope.

1Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

If the greatest element for salvation was faith, why is it the Apostles states otherwise? If faith is "alone’, why does the Apostle teach it is always together with hope and love?