Faith alone or not?

[Tomster]

MD, Satan certainly believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. So is he saved?

How about it Moon?

 

[Tomster]

Which makes me think of the type of faith the devils have.

In the Book of James we read that even the demons believe and shudder. Why does James add demons to the discussion?

In Hebrews 11:6, we discover, that faith has two basic components. First, one must believe that God exists. The demons have this component. However, they do not have the second component, that is, they do not aspire to God as “the rewarder of those who diligently seek him.” Diligently seeking God requires that they work to please Him - something the demons will not do.

Once again, HOW ABOUT IT MOON?

 

[Tomster]

Wrong from the get go - the context has nothing at all to do with those who " actually trust in their own piety, their own works, their church hierarchy, their religious system." That is pure fantasy. The context, if it werent clear enough, is what is the salvific consequence of a faith that LACKS WORKS - exactly the opposite of your proposed someone who “trusts in their own works”.
Here it is for all who wish to know the truth…v14, the beginning of the faith, works discussion:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

There it is. The context? Salvation and it’s relationship to a faith that does not have works. It is the exact opposite of what you propose when you say that the context involves someone who trusts in their own works, and has absolutely nothing to do with the fabricated issues of “church hierarchy” or “religious system”.

The section concludes, after a discussion of a bunch of works related issues including how a person who neglects the needs of others is essentially useless and how a bunch of righteous people did good works, to the opening context with the answer to the rhetorical question asked above:

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone… For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

The message could not be clearer:

If someone says they have faith but do not have works, that is no good and it will not save them. We are justified by works and not by faith without works (ie faith alone), because faith without works is dead faith and dead faith is not salvific.

The only caveat that I will add is that the context of this discussion is for Christians persevering in faith. I do believe that our initial adoption as sons and daughters of God, our renewing by the holy Spirit - what non-Catholics ofter refer to as being “born-again” - is accomplished by faith alone. If a person who “accepted Christ as Lord and Savior” with the full intent of submitting their lives to Him were to die immediately after believing and before there was an opportunity to live their faith, they would inherit the KOG. But that is not what James is addressing, and my comments should be read in that context: the ongoing Christian life.

For a third time, HOW ABOUT IT MOON?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Moon logged on yesterday in the afternoon briefly, read this thread, and then logged out.

I think (s)he needs some time.

Let’s keep it charitable.

 

[twb1621]

Moon logged on yesterday in the afternoon briefly, read this thread, and then logged out.

I think (s)he needs some time.

Let’s keep it charitable.

Yes, it can be frustrating but you’re right, we are to remain charitable and as James and John have reflected at times, that slips out of our grasp occasionally. We can pray that moon will overcome his/her self pride and strengthen that devotion to Christ to a point of seeking to learn the truth regardless of where that truth leads instead of blocking out what is personally disagreeable to his/her own adopted beliefs. A truthful answer to the following question will help moon find the most accurate direction to that truth.

****Moon; ****

Do you honestly believe you know better and understand better the intended teachings and interpretations of Scripture over and above the Apostolic Fathers (taught directly by the direct preaching of the apostles) and the Catholic Church of which they served within and from which the written Inspired Word of God know as the Gospels were taken?

 

[paul_c]

Moon logged on yesterday in the afternoon briefly, read this thread, and then logged out.

I think (s)he needs some time.

Let’s keep it charitable.

Its a he. and lets be fair. we have several people on this thread who write long notes and then demand Moondweller answer them. Frankly, I don’t think anyone is obligated to answer any post. Its not a competition or a debate. and we definitely don’t want to make the forum hostile. We are giving Catholic answers to those that will listen… and sometimes those that are listening most intently are those that never type a word on the thread.

 

[paul_c]

No, a person (in context) cannot be saved through a mere “said” faith (Ja. 2:14). This is the CONTEXT of James’ whole argument. Many SAY they have faith in Christ, but actually trust in their own piety, their own works, their church hierarchy, their religious system. But the object of faith in the N.T. for salvation, even Divinely reckoned righteousness, is Christ alone. His Person and sacrificial work. Jesus always pointed to Himself as the source of eternal life (never a church or men); and He said that the one who believes in Him “HAS” it (eternal life, Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24). John himself never deviated from that same basic message about Christ in his Epistles: 1 Jn. 5:9-13.

Sure Jesus is the source of eternal life. Thats not being debated here. What is being debated is Faith alone. It seems to me that you have acknowledged that a Faith without works is " a mere said faith- insufficient for eternal life". Therefore, you need to have works to validate your faith. That is all we are saying.

The difference is a mere, religious “said” faith vs. a true faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. Faith, by definition, has an object (outside one’s self), and the Object of one’s faith makes all the difference when it comes to salvation and reckoned Divine righteousness. The Scriptures are very clear on this point. But men refuse to believe it (or, in Him).

No, both a “Said” Faith and a “true” faith are centered on Christ. The difference is that a True Faith results in works of love because that’s what Jesus taught us to do.

Again, the CONTEXT of James’ argument is a mere “said” faith vs. a true faith, which produces and demonstrates works. Hence, a mere “said” faith is dead. Nevertheless, James does not conclude that one is SAVED by works but that his faith can be demonstrated by works:James 2:18 "But someone may say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."Abraham, whom God justified because he believed in Him (Gen. 15:6; cf Rom. 4:1-6), later demonstrated a mature faith (which matured over 20 years) by willing to sacrifice his only son (according to promise). We know why he was willing to sacrifice Isaac as stated in Heb 11:19;"He considered that God is able to raise {people} even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type."It’s a “type,” a picture of Christ and the Father giving Him up to sacrifice. As Abraham said to Isaac, “God will provide His own sacrifice.”

Well, Moon, you need both faith and works.
James starts this whole discourse with :
James 2: 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
then he says:
James 2: 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
The whole discourse is directly against the heresy of Faith Alone. How can you not see this?

Abraham believed God’s Word some 20 years prior about a promised son through whom God’s covenant with Abraham would be fulfilled. Hence, by faith, he knew that God would raise Isaac up from the dead.

You see, that’s the faith by which God reckons righteous the “ungodly” (Rom. 4:5). Not by one’s “righteous” works; not by a mere “said” faith, but a faith that believes GOD’S Word concerning His Son and His sacrificial death on his behalf. Not the words of men, nor the works of men. But faith in Christ alone.

Well clearly St. James disagrees with your intepretation of Paul letter to the Romans. And we’ve quoted Romans 2: 5-10 to you too many times to count.

It’s still based on “promise.” Hence it requires faith. Abraham believed what God said He would DO, and God credited that faith in Him TO HIM as righteousness. IOW, He justified him based on faith ALONE. This side of the cross we’re to believe the Apostolic message of what God has DONE in and through the work of His beloved Son, Whom He delivered over to sacrifice and raised up from the dead, and that which is promised through Him: forgiveness of all sins; redemption; reconciliation; propitiation; sanctification; glorification and eternal life. And God Himself, as with Abraham, justifies him who believes by that faith ALONE:Rom 3:27-28 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law."You stumble over the simplicity of it.

You know Moon, bringing up Abraham is right in the Catholic wheelhouse, so to speak.
While Abraham believed God, he was still forced to act to demonstrate his faith. In his case, he needed to circumcise all the men in his household as a sign of the covenant. In the Christian case, we are also marked with the sign of the covenant through baptism. In both cases a ceremony is required by God to publicly state our intentions. In the old covenant, the marking was physical. In the new covenant, it is spiritual.

 

[moondweller]

MD, Satan certainly believes in the Lord Jesus Christ. So is he saved?

It’s amazing indeed how you could conclude from the account in Matthew chapter four that Satan “believes in” the Lord. Obviously you don’t know what the phrase to “believe in” means. There’s a difference between “believing in” one’s existence and “believing in” the Person Himself.

The latter is what Abraham did in Gen. 15:6. Prior to that event Abraham “believed in” the existence of God; God spoke directly to him. But a different kind of belief in Him occurred in Gen. 15:6 which had not existed previously. A belief “in Him” by which God reckoned it (his faith to him as righteousness (i.e., God justified him based on faith alone). God did not reckon righteousness to Abraham because he merely believed in His existence. Which is your (and most Catholic’s) definition of “believe in.”

Jesus said:John 12:46 "I have come {as} Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness."By stating that Satan “believes in the Lord Jesus Christ” you’re essentially saying (contrary to Scripture) that Satan is a true angel of light (no longer in darkness) rather than disguising himself to be so (2 Cor. 11:14). Such is not a Biblical Satanology. Your statement is quite dangerous, indeed. And you have fallen prey into his deceitfulness.

 

[Cat_Herder]

It’s amazing indeed how you could conclude from the account in Matthew chapter four that Satan “believes in” the Lord. Obviously you don’t know what the phrase to “believe in” means. There’s a difference between “believing in” one’s existence and “believing in” the Person Himself.

The latter is what Abraham did in Gen. 15:6.

EITHER
Abraham was saved by faith alone
OR
Salvation is through Jesus Christ alone

Take your pick.

God did not reckon righteousness to Abraham because he merely believed in His existence. Which is your (and most Catholic’s) definition of “believe in.”

How would you know that?

Such is not a Biblical Satanology. Your statement is quite dangerous, indeed. And you have fallen prey into his deceitfulness.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 12:26[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[moondweller]

So you do believe faith without works is dead and dead faith can not save us, correct?

No, I believe what James states. That a mere “said” faith is not the faith by which God Himself saves. It’s God who saves (eternally, judicially and perfectly) through the Person and work of the Man Jesus Christ, alone. One does not, cannot, save himself, even through faith alone. That’s why Paul states:Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

The only time I see “faith” and “alone” together is when it teaches us that not how we are saved. If scripture is direct enough to tell how we arent saved shouldnt it be more important to tells us HOW we are are saved (by faith alone)???

To the contrary, the N.T. Scriptures are replete with stating “faith” alone. The above verse is only ONE example. Another, in the context of being justified by God is Gal. 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."I could list numerous verses where faith is always stated ALONE. Hence, one must conclude based on the preponderance of Biblical evidence, not the tradition of men (or an out of context interpretation of James)…

BTW it is VERY simple “…we are saved by works and not by faith alone”. You so correct it is so very simple

And yet you continue to stumble.

 

[moondweller]

Its clear from all indications that Luther suffered from some mental disorder.

That’s what they said of Christ as well. Luther’s in good company. The BEST, in fact. Literally!!!

 

[Cat_Herder]

The above verse is only ONE example. Another, in the context of being justified by God is Gal. 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."I could list numerous verses where faith is always stated ALONE. Hence, one must conclude based on the preponderance of Biblical evidence, not the tradition of men (or an out of context interpretation of James)…And yet you continue to stumble.

But in all of those instances the faith being referred to is a living and loving faith, not simply an intellectual or emotional trust in Christ.

 

[Pax]

It’s amazing indeed how you could conclude from the account in Matthew chapter four that Satan “believes in” the Lord. Obviously you don’t know what the phrase to “believe in” means. There’s a difference between “believing in” one’s existence and “believing in” the Person Himself.

The latter is what Abraham did in Gen. 15:6. Prior to that event Abraham “believed in” the existence of God; God spoke directly to him. But a different kind of belief in Him occurred in Gen. 15:6 which had not existed previously. A belief “in Him” by which God reckoned it (his faith to him as righteousness (i.e., God justified him based on faith alone). God did not reckon righteousness to Abraham because he merely believed in His existence. Which is your (and most Catholic’s) definition of “believe in.”

Jesus said:John 12:46 "I have come {as} Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness."By stating that Satan “believes in the Lord Jesus Christ” you’re essentially saying (contrary to Scripture) that Satan is a true angel of light (no longer in darkness) rather than disguising himself to be so (2 Cor. 11:14). Such is not a Biblical Satanology. Your statement is quite dangerous, indeed. And you have fallen prey into his deceitfulness.

MD in Christ,

You are wrong but you are beginning to go down the right track. Scripture says in James 2, that “even the demons believe.” Satan and the demons do believe. The problem for you is that scripture says this contrary to your claims against us. Your explanation as to the substance of belief is, however, a beginning that may get you onto the right track.

Satan and the demons fully believe and are knowledgeable of Jesus. The problem with them is that they are at enmity with God. A Christian can believe and then later join the demons. They can go into apostasy as described in the book of Hebrews, or they can simply turn from living in the light and return to living in the flesh. When we choose to live in sin, we choose to turn away from God, and we thus choose ourselves and sin over God. That kind of thing sets us at enmity with God. In that kind of situation the person loves himself rather than God. The demons likewise love themselves and have no love of God or man.

Scripture describes this kind of thing over and over, and it is found in Paul’s letters, and those of Peter and John, in the form of warnings to Christian believers. You have been shown all of this, but you refuse to accept the clear words and meaning of scripture in spite of the overwhelming evidence.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

MD in Christ,

Would you agree that Paul uses “circumcision” as his principle example of works righteousness of the law against the Judaizers in his arguments for justification by faith?

God bless.

 

[Cat_Herder]

That’s what they said of Christ as well. Luther’s in good company. The BEST, in fact. Literally!!!

Unlike Luther, Christ did not advocate dehumanization or slaughter of the Jews who crucified Him. He forgave them.

Christ was accused of being an agent of Beelzebub. You have essentially made the same accusation of our Church and therefore of us. I have forgiven you and I believe everyone else has too.

St. Dymphna, pray for us.

 

[Philthy]

Well, faith along with baptism, through which is given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38.

Infants are baptized on the faith of their parents. Acts 2:39. The Holy Spirit supplies personal faith for the baby. 1 Cor 12:9.

Those who come to faith in Christ but who do not have the opportunity to be baptized (as I stipulated) are saved by grace (baptism of desire) through faith…these nuances detract from the topic at hand, but I thought it was important to qualify that James is talking about the ongoing Christian life. That is probably why he never mentions baptism, BTW, because it is a moot point in the discussion of the ongoing Christian life and persevering in faith…

 

[LittleSoldier]

MD, it’s right there in Scripture:

[16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: **the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? **

[James 2:16-20, Douay-Rheims, bolding added]

So not only Satan, whom we know tempted Jesus the Christ in the desert, but the devils believe in Jesus. And tremble.

So are the devils saved? Is Satan saved?

Or is this some sort of misreading and/or misinterpretation of James 2? It seems very straight-forward to me.

 

[LittleSoldier]

It’s amazing indeed how you could conclude from the account in Matthew chapter four that Satan “believes in” the Lord. Obviously you don’t know what the phrase to “believe in” means. There’s a difference between “believing in” one’s existence and “believing in” the Person Himself.

It’s amazing indeed that you decided I was relying on Scripture when I didn’t even post any! Are you omniscient? Do you have some sort of X-ray power kinda like Superman that allows you to see what I am thinking? I didn’t even bring up Scripture!!

But now that you have brought it up, how about the following:

MD, it’s right there in Scripture:

[16] And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? [17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] **Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? **

[James 2:16-20, Douay-Rheims, bolding added]

So not only Satan, who tempted Jesus the Christ in the desert, but the devils believe in Jesus who is God. And tremble. And tremble.

So are the devils saved? Is Satan saved?

Or is this some sort of misreading and/or misinterpretation of James 2? It seems very straight-forward to me. Please note: I have the faith of a child and sometimes the mind of a child. You can play semantic games all you want but I rely on the Word of God - every last little bit of it, whether it is in the bible or not. As it states at the end of the gospel of John (paraphrasing) the world probably couldn’t contain all the books that would describe all that Jesus did and said. But Jesus did and said those things. I believe in it all.

The latter is what Abraham did in Gen. 15:6. Prior to that event Abraham “believed in” the existence of God; God spoke directly to him. But a different kind of belief in Him occurred in Gen. 15:6 which had not existed previously. A belief “in Him” by which God reckoned it (his faith to him as righteousness (i.e., God justified him based on faith alone). God did not reckon righteousness to Abraham because he merely believed in His existence. Which is your (and most Catholic’s) definition of “believe in.”

Lol, I seriously am trying to be charitable here. But if I didn’t laugh I would cry. For now you have not only assumed that I am relying on a particular Scripture passage (Matthew something or other), but you know what my definition of “belief” is. You don’t know that. You can’t know that. Why are you assuming so much about someone you don’t even know? For all you know I could be the man in the moon.

Jesus said:John 12:46 "I have come {as} Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness."By stating that Satan “believes in the Lord Jesus Christ” you’re essentially saying (contrary to Scripture) that Satan is a true angel of light (no longer in darkness) rather than disguising himself to be so (2 Cor. 11:14). Such is not a Biblical Satanology. Your statement is quite dangerous, indeed. And you have fallen prey into his deceitfulness.

And here, ladies and gentlemen, we have even more assumptions. Are you my doppelganger, MD? Or do we somehow share the same brain, the same thoughts? Hint: No, we don’t.

Scripture is quite clear. Satan and the devils believe in Jesus the Christ. You stated that those who believe in Jesus are saved. So all I can assume is that you believe that Satan and the devils are saved. And do the devils really believe? They TREMBLE. That is belief.

Or could it possibly be more complicated? Maybe just belief isn’t enough. Maybe there is something more that people and devils must do in order to go to heaven. And the Scripture I quoted above gives a good hint as to what that is: It Is. Works. Works which the devils will not or cannot do. But works which we as human beings can do. Or refuse to do and then we can join the devils. It’s up to us.

Your little remark about my having “fallen prey into his deceitfulness” causes me no discomfort whatever. I am quite aware of what Satan can do and I do my best to dance around his “deceitfulness.” I’m not afraid of him because I am a soldier of God, who protects me. If I fall there is someone there to help me up - the greatest entity in the universe and beyond, the One who died for me, unworthy me, the real omniscient Being. God - who shows me so much mercy and love that it is almost unbelievable. Almost.

 

[moondweller]

You know Moon, bringing up Abraham is right in the Catholic wheelhouse, so to speak. While Abraham believed God, he was still forced to act to demonstrate his faith. In his case, he needed to circumcise all the men in his household as a sign of the covenant. In the Christian case, we are also marked with the sign of the covenant through baptism. In both cases a ceremony is required by God to publicly state our intentions. In the old covenant, the marking was physical. In the new covenant, it is spiritual.

Can you show me where it says God reckoned the act of circumcising the men of his household to Abraham as righteousness? Genesis 15:6 states differently. As does Paul in Rom. 4:1-5, and James in 2:23. Each state that Abraham BELIEVED in the Lord and He reckoned it (His belief in Him) to him as righteousness. IOW, he was justified based on faith alone. Did that faith subsequently produce works? Yes indeed. But the Scriptures are very clear that God, at the time of justifying Abraham (declaring him righteous), did so on the basis of faith alone.

 

[ignatius777]

Can you show me where it says God reckoned the act of circumcising the men of his household to Abraham as righteousness? Genesis 15:6 states differently. As does Paul in Rom. 4:1-5, and James in 2:23. Each state that Abraham BELIEVED in the Lord and He reckoned it (His belief in Him) to him as righteousness. IOW, he was justified based on faith alone. Did that faith subsequently produce works? Yes indeed. But the Scriptures are very clear that God, at the time of justifying Abraham (declaring him righteous), did so on the basis of faith alone.

Would Abrahams faith have been alive or dead had he not done what was asked of him?