Faith alone or not?

[paul_c]

I am shocked that this thread stopped so suddenly after being so active for almost 1000 posts…

Pax, i guess you had the last word.

 

[LittleSoldier]

According to Catholic doctrine there are certain “mortal” sins. Show me the Biblical text that lists them. Where does John say here is the list of “mortal” sins. Here is his list of “venial” sins?

I haven’t had time to read all the later posts and I apologize if this has been posted before (and I’m sure it has been posted over and over and over), but MD, you continue to rely on sola scriptura*. Please provide the passage in the bible where it states that there must be a passage in the bible providing a list of mortal sins.

Hint: It ain’t there.

But there is something there that you seem to keep forgetting and that is:

And Jesus came into the quarters of Caesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. **And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. **Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

[Matthew 16:13-20, Douay-Rheims, bolding added]

Surely you agree that Jesus is God!! And here Scripture shows that God gave Peter, the first Pope, and His Church, the Power to bind and loosen upon earth.

Jesus was not being lackadaisical and I hope you don’t think He was lying or joking when He said these words. I don’t think He was lying or joking. What He said was pure, simple, TRUTH.

And the words here make the “list” you require completely unnecessary as Jesus’ Church has the authority to bind and to loosen. Ergo, it is up to the Church to define mortal sin and to say what actions cause a mortal sin to occur.

Which she has done.

Why do you continue to insist that every word of Truth must be contained within the bible? Oh ye of little faith!! Read the ending of the Gospel of John. Not all the Word of Jesus is in the bible. Why do you insist on holding onto that book as though it were the only possible source of the Word of God?

Because it ain’t.

God bless!*

 

[LittleSoldier]

According to Catholic doctrine you are wrong, there are as many mortal sins as the human mind can conceive.

CCC:
1857 For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

**1858 **Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

**1860 **Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

**1861 **Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

MD, it would be extremely beneficial on your own part to realize you make these interpretations of Scripture that oppose Scripture due to your desired beliefs, this gravely due to the fact you break passages down to such a small fractional quote for your desired interpretation you ignore the remainder of the verses and passages. Now you are doing the same things (and have been) with the Catholic doctrines which I have proven by the quote of the Catechism of the Catholic Church above. Do you realize you are only interfering with your own learning by your misguided insistence?

And again, you have also made it clear when I or others bring these facts to you with the extended Scriptural quotes directly related to those you previously referred to, you refuse to respond and completely move on to something else. Are you here to discuss honestly and with a devotion to Christ to find what the truth is regardless of where it takes you or are you going to allow your pride to come before truth? Do you think you know better and understand more clearly what the Apostles taught than the Apostolic Fathers who learned from them as accompanying disciples taught directly, not from Gospel writings and who wrote of those teachings throughout early Church History? I know I asked this before but you repeatedly avoid response which does not reflect well of your intentions.

Thank you, Tom (and Paul and everyone else who has posted this) for your post. It shows how the Church, on the authority of God, has defined mortal sin, including the three conditions necessary for a mortal sin to occur.

MD, it’s all right there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It might be a good idea for you to read this document. It even has footnotes in case you want to read more.

And I would like to remind you that Catholics believe in a loving God who doesn’t sit up there, faceless, on His throne ala Jack Chick, pointing His finger at terrified people who only want to be with Him and sending them off to hell. God wants us to be with Him - He loves us so much that He accepts our decision as to whether we want to be with Him or not.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I am shocked that this thread stopped so suddenly after being so active for almost 1000 posts…

Pax, i guess you had the last word.

Well, Pax didn’t quite have the last word (although his/her username would be appropriate) but it seems as though MD has left the building.

We’ve still got some time. Maybe he’ll be back.

 

[Pitcharan]

…it seems as though MD has left the building. We’ve still got some time. Maybe he’ll be back.

Is MD a ‘he’ or a ‘she’?

 

[placido]

Is MD a ‘he’ or a ‘she’?

Seems he/she is actually “they”, or how can one person contradict him/herself so many times?

placido

 

[twb1621]

Thank you, Tom (and Paul and everyone else who has posted this) for your post. It shows how the Church, on the authority of God, has defined mortal sin, including the three conditions necessary for a mortal sin to occur.

MD, it’s all right there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It might be a good idea for you to read this document. It even has footnotes in case you want to read more.

And I would like to remind you that Catholics believe in a loving God who doesn’t sit up there, faceless, on His throne ala Jack Chick, pointing His finger at terrified people who only want to be with Him and sending them off to hell. God wants us to be with Him - He loves us so much that He accepts our decision as to whether we want to be with Him or not.

In the Peace of Christ my brother…
Tom

 

[Philthy]

Seems he/she is actually “they”, or how can one person contradict him/herself so many times?placido

I don’t find MD inconsistent at all. IMO he consistently interprets everything through the lens of the strictest sense of sola fide. When he is confronted with verses that challenge that bedrock of his theology, he consistently finds a reason why the verse in question “cannot” mean what it would otherwise appear to be saying. The means used to justify the interpretation vary as we have seen in this thread, and as I predicted very early on:
Context demands an alternate meaning
The verse doesnt apply to believers
The verse is a warning but doesnt apply to our salvation
The verse refers to our reward in Heaven but not to our salvation
etc etc etc

One example is his reinterpretation of Gal 5:
“You have been separated from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace.”
Where “you have been separated” doesnt actually mean have been, but means “remain separated”; and " fallen from grace" doesnt mean you were “in a state of grace and have left it” but means some other irrelevant consideration.

Blessings!

 

[paul_c]

Moondweller is a He. and He definitely is consistent in his approach. He has been offering the same arguments here for a couple of years now.

Appreciate what he does for us here. He challenges us to find scriptural answers to his Reformed theology, which brings out the best in us (most of the time). See what happens when he leaves? There is nothing left to discuss because the Catholics are all in agreement on these issues.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Moondweller is a He. and He definitely is consistent in his approach. He has been offering the same arguments here for a couple of years now.

Appreciate what he does for us here. He challenges us to find scriptural answers to his Reformed theology, which brings out the best in us (most of the time). See what happens when he leaves? There is nothing left to discuss because the Catholics are all in agreement on these issues.

Thanks for the clarification of his gender,

I have enjoyed this thread immensely. I’ve learned a lot about my faith and my faith has grown stronger as a result. I’ve always had weak faith; I’ve always been a “Doubting Thomas.” I wanted to believe but I just couldn’t quite do it (maybe wanting to believe is why I like the X-Files so much ).

But when I read the Scripture and Church teaching posted here I felt a peace come over me and with it a strengthening of my faith. You’re right - we, as Catholics, agreed. And I finally really feel like I’ve come home and that I belong with all of you.

So this thread has been enormously helpful to me. I want to thank all of you, even MD (I hope he sees this post). I know I’m only one person but I really feel good about being a Catholic right now.

Thanks, guys.

 

[paul_c]

Thanks for the clarification of his gender,

I have enjoyed this thread immensely. I’ve learned a lot about my faith and my faith has grown stronger as a result. I’ve always had weak faith; I’ve always been a “Doubting Thomas.” I wanted to believe but I just couldn’t quite do it (maybe wanting to believe is why I like the X-Files so much ).

But when I read the Scripture and Church teaching posted here I felt a peace come over me and with it a strengthening of my faith. You’re right - we, as Catholics, agreed. And I finally really feel like I’ve come home and that I belong with all of you.

So this thread has been enormously helpful to me. I want to thank all of you, even MD (I hope he sees this post). I know I’m only one person but I really feel good about being a Catholic right now.

Thanks, guys.

So Moondweller has helped your faith, just not in the way he intended… I think this is typical…

 

[Pax]

One of the things discussed on this thread is mortal sin and how it separates us from God. I had hoped that MD would have a chance to think about and respond to the following concerning fornication, and why it clearly separates “believers” as well as non-believers from God and leads to eternal punishment.

First of all, it is clear that the warnings in Paul’s letters against fornication are to “believers”. MD seems to disagree with that point, but it will become clear even without direct references to believers why fornication leads to spiritual death for anyone that engages in this mortal sin. The following passage is quite instructive as to why this sin is mortal:

1 Corinthians 6:9-20

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”–and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? **Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.” **But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

The highlighted and underlined portions of that passage tell us why fornication separates us from God and why it is so serious and mortal in nature. It is for that reason that Paul also says the following:

Col 3:5-6

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

Our body is meant for God, but if we engage in fornication, we become one flesh with the other sinful partner. This breaks one union and creates another union. One cannot simultaneously be a temple of the Holy Spirit while becoming one flesh with another in fornication. Pondering the above two passages makes it clear why salvation will be lost through unrepentant fornication. A state of covenant union with God as a temple of the Holy Spirit is totally incompatible with fornication “which is idolatry” and union with someone other than the Holy Spirit.

Does anyone see this any other way?

There is also one other basic disconnect in MD’s logic in contending that the warnings Paul and the other NT writers give concerning mortal sins do not apply to believers. If the warnings were not meant for believers, then who are they meant for? Non-believers are not saved regardless of what they do. The warnings, therefore, cannot apply to non-believers because they are already condemned. The warnings against serious sin will not help non-believers unto salvation. The warnings can only logically apply to believers in terms of those sins affecting salvation.

God bless.

 

[Philthy]

Does anyone see this any other way?

Im with ya Pax!

There is also one other basic disconnect in MD’s logic in contending that the warnings Paul and the other NT writers give concerning mortal sins do not apply to believers. If the warnings were not meant for believers, then who are they meant for? Non-believers are not saved regardless of what they do. The warnings, therefore, cannot apply to non-believers because they are already condemned. The warnings against serious sin will not help non-believers unto salvation. The warnings can only logically apply to believers in terms of those sins affecting salvation.

And the problems don’t end there for the faith alone crowd. For if salvation is by “faith alone” then why would Paul be identifying those who do not inherit the KOG by the sins they commit??? That makes no sense at all. In fact it contradicts the faith alone message, does it not? I Paul were a sola fide adherent, he should be identifying those who won’t inherit the KOG by their unbelief. Their sins, after all, have been “nailed to the Cross” once and for all time, right? But he doesn’t do that at all. Not even close! Paul is unambiguous, and repeatedly so. Those who do such THINGS have no inheritance in the KOG. It is a crushing blow to the sola fide theology.
The ONLY possible way out for the faith alone adherent to maintain his position would be to say that true believers are “protected” from committing such sins. That, however, would require that they concede that if anyone does commit them then they aren’t true believers, and never were…they just thought they were. That renders the “eternal security” concept completely useless, it eliminates any meaningful concept of OSAS since you won’t REALLY know that your saved until you have completed your life free of those sins, and it so forcefully flies in the face of reality that I have yet to meet a single sola fide/OSAS adherent who would even entertain such a notion that “true believers don’t sin”.
I predicted the squirming and denial that would come to characterize this thread should MD be courageous enough to engage in apologetic debate on 1Cor, Gal and Eph. He has shown the courage and determination that he has to enter the battle, and I complimented him on it - see post 755. He is fighting a losing battle IMHO

 

[Pax]

Phil,

I certainly agree.

God bless.