Faith alone or not?

[Philthy]

If there is such a thing as a “mortal” sin (as defined by Catholicism) then Christ died needlessly.

Oh, there is definitely such a thing as mortal sin. The problem - for you - is that your sole rule of faith doesnt bother to explain what it is and why it would be any different from any other type of sin. The fact remains, however, that John makes reference to “sin which is deadly” (ie mortal) and contrasts it to other, lesser forms of “wrongdoing” which constitute “sin”, but not “deadly” sin.

Here is the relevant Scripture:

1John 5:16

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

Mor-tal

**1. ** Liable or subject to death.
**2. ** Of or relating to humankind; human: the mortal limits of understanding.
**3. ** Of, relating to, or accompanying death: mortal throes.
**4. ** Causing death; fatal: a mortal wound. See Synonyms at fatal.
**5. ** Fighting or fought to the death; unrelenting: a mortal enemy; a mortal attack.
**6. ** Of great intensity or severity; dire: mortal terror.
**7. ** Conceivable: no mortal reason for us to go.
**8. ** Used as an intensive: a mortal fool.

4 senses of mortal

Sense 1:
mortal (vs. immortal)
earthbornAlso See: earthly#1; finite#1

Sense 2:
deadly, mortal(prenominal)
unpardonable (vs. pardonable)
Sense 3:
mortal(prenominal)
merciless (vs. merciful), unmerciful
Sense 4:
deadly, deathly, mortal
fatal (vs. nonfatal)

There is sin which is not deadly, and there is sin which is deadly. This latter sin is referred to as “mortal sin”, and praying about it doesnt do the trick. Let him with ears to hear, hear

 

[moondweller]

1. The Bible (1 John 5:16): “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.”
Note: deadly sin = mortal sin. The Bible says there is such a thing …
2. The Catholic Catechism (Paragraph 1857): “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”
3. Answers.com: “Mortal sin is sin such as murder or blasphemy, that is so heinous it deprives the soul of sanctifying grace and causes damnation”.
It seems – once again – it is Catholicism that agrees with the Bible and Moondweller who (as always) opposes the Bible.

placido

So, IOW, based on your interpretation Catholics never should pray for someone who’s committed a “mortal” sin. He/she is damned and no prayer should be said on his/her behalf. Only if someone commits a non-mortal sin is prayer allowed. And where does the Apostle John list these “mortal” sins and “non-mortal” sins? I don’t want your opinion, or any man’s opinion, but rather provide for me the Biblical text which lists those sins for which Christ did not die.

 

[moondweller]

What doesnt exist, IMHO, is the statement that Abraham’s “credit of righteousness” was a permanent credit or that it, alone, guaranteed that he would be going to Heaven.
All we will repeatedly hear is the pleading of what those statements “mean” when interpreted through the lens of an individuals soteriology. I remain unimpressed with those pleadings.

IOW, you remain unimpressed with what God said he did for Abraham based on his faith in Him alone. I understand.

 

[Cat_Herder]

So, IOW, based on your interpretation Catholics never should pray for someone who’s committed a “mortal” sin. He/she is damned and no prayer should be said on his/her behalf. Only if someone commits a non-mortal sin is prayer allowed.

We can pray for the conversion of all sinners. We just can’t directly obtain forgiveness for their mortal sins.

And where does the Apostle John list these “mortal” sins and “non-mortal” sins? I don’t want your opinion, or any man’s opinion, but rather provide for me the Biblical text which lists those sins for which Christ did not die.

You are confusing the infinite merit and power of Calvary with the individual partaking in the Blood of Christ. The former covers all sins. The latter covers only those sins which the sinner actually washes in Christ’s blood. Venial sins can be expiated by prayer alone. Mortal sins cannot.

 

[moondweller]

Here is what I find interesting. The event you describe occurred on the third day. God let Abraham know that he must go and offer Isaac up 2 days previous. Was that not an admission of faith?

Why is that not pointed out by Moon as the “faith” moment, the beginning of the trip. As soon as he agreed to go on the trip knowing he must offer his own son, is that not the faith moment Moon clings to so dearly.

Abraham walked with the burden that he must offer his son for two whole days and nights. His walking is the walking in faith, we as Catholics describe.

If Abraham had not obeyed the previous two days … the events of the third day would not have passed.

Think about it.

The faith by which God reckoned to Abraham righteousness occurred some 20 years earlier. Read Gen. 15:6. Isaac wasn’t even born yet, only promised. Gen. 15:6 is the ONLY place where it’s recorded that God reckoned righteousness to Abraham. IOW, Abraham was justified before God only once. And that was back in Gen. 15:6. You won’t find it in Gen. 22.

 

[Cat_Herder]

IOW, you remain unimpressed with what God said he did for Abraham based on his faith in Him alone. I understand.

And I remain unimpressed by this contradiction: Abraham’s alleged salvation by faith alone vs. the alleged doctrine that salvation is through faith in Christ, not the Father, alone.

The faith by which God reckoned to Abraham righteousness occurred some 20 years earlier. Read Gen. 15:6. Isaac wasn’t even born yet, only promised. Gen. 15:6 is the ONLY place where it’s recorded that God reckoned righteousness to Abraham. IOW, Abraham was justified before God only once. And that was back in Gen. 15:6. You won’t find it in Gen. 22.

Jesus wasn’t walking around back then either…

 

[placido]

If there is such a thing as a “mortal” sin (as defined by Catholicism) then Christ died needlessly.

And where does the Apostle John list these “mortal” sins and “non-mortal” sins? I don’t want your opinion, or any man’s opinion, but rather provide for me the Biblical text which lists those sins for which Christ did not die.

From denying the existence of “mortal” sin to demanding a list … that is a remarkable jump only MD can perform. Do you now believe there is such a thing as “mortal” sin? So, Jesus die needlessly according to you!
You never stop entertaining us.

placido

 

[moondweller]

We can pray for the conversion of all sinners.

According to your interpretation you cannot pray for anyone who commits a “mortal” sin.

We just can’t directly obtain forgiveness for their mortal sins.

That’s not what the text says.

You are confusing the infinite merit and power of Calvary with the individual partaking in the Blood of Christ. The former covers all sins. The latter covers only those sins which the sinner actually washes in Christ’s blood. Venial sins can be expiated by prayer alone. Mortal sins cannot.

Provide the Biblical list of “venial” sins and the Biblical list of “mortal” sins.

How does a sinner actually wash his sins in Christ’s blood? What does “wash sins” mean?

 

[moondweller]

From denying the existence of “mortal” sin to demanding a list … that is a remarkable jump only MD can perform. Do you now believe there is such a thing as “mortal” sin? Did Jesus die needlessly according to you?
You never stop entertaining us.

placido

According to Catholic doctrine there are certain “mortal” sins. Show me the Biblical text that lists them. Where does John say here is the list of “mortal” sins. Here is his list of “venial” sins?

 

[placido]

According to your interpretation you cannot pray for anyone who commits a “mortal” sin. That’s not what the text says.Provide the Biblical list of “venial” sins and the Biblical list of “mortal” sins.

In other words, in the absence of a list (or lists) MD would never believe what the Bible says, namely that “there is such a thing as mortal sin”.
He wanted the Bible to say, "there is such a thing as mortal sin, and the list is as follow:…"

placido

 

[Cat_Herder]

According to your interpretation you cannot pray for anyone who commits a “mortal” sin.That’s not what the text says.Provide the Biblical list of “venial” sins and the Biblical list of “mortal” sins.

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

There are three elements that make a sin mortal: (1) full knowledge, and (2) intent, are both stated above. Then there is also (3) grave matter. There are several lists throughout Scripture of what constitutes grave matter. Look at the end of Revelation for one of them.

How does a sinner actually wash his sins in Christ’s blood? What does “wash sins” mean?

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 22:16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 10:16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 19:5-6[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]James 5:14-15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Jn 20:22-23[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 4:14[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:15[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[placido]

According to Catholic doctrine there are certain “mortal” sins.

Correction: According to the Bible and the Catholic doctrine there are certain “mortal” sins.

Show me the Biblical text that lists them. Where does John say here is the list of “mortal” sins. Here is his list of “venial” sins?

Hmmm, do you believe there is such a thing as Holy Scripture? Yes!
Does the Bible provide a list of inspired Scriptures? No!
Do you reject Scripture because of the absence of a list? No!
You are not consistent Brother.

placido

 

[paul_c]

So, IOW, based on your interpretation Catholics never should pray for someone who’s committed a “mortal” sin. He/she is damned and no prayer should be said on his/her behalf. Only if someone commits a non-mortal sin is prayer allowed. And where does the Apostle John list these “mortal” sins and “non-mortal” sins? I don’t want your opinion, or any man’s opinion, but rather provide for me the Biblical text which lists those sins for which Christ did not die.

Moondweller, I thought you said you understood Catholocism…

Christ died so that we could be reconciled to the Father. A mortal sin can be forgiven with the sacrament of reconciliation so we surely should pray for those that have committed mortal sin. There is no complete list of mortal sins, because intent and understanding matter. For a sin to be mortal, there are three requirements

1. It must be of serious matter
2. You must intend to sin, (its deliberate, in other words
3. You must have full knoweldge that the action is sinful.

To make it very clear, a mortal sin is deliberately and knowingly turning from God in a grave matter.

God will be the ultimate judge of whether a sin is mortal or not. If there is any doubt on the sinners part, the sinner should confess as soon as possible in the sacrament of reconciliation because if he fails to do so before death, he will be condemned…

 

[Philthy]

IOW, you remain unimpressed with what God said he did for Abraham based on his faith in Him alone. I understand.

I know it’s hard for you to consider that not everyone accepts your interpretations of Scripture to be equivalent to what “God said”, but it remains true nonetheless. God clearly credited Abraham’s faith as righteousness. It is unclear that what the full impact of that credit accomplished in relation to the remainder of Abraham’s life - and in particular what relationship it had on the day of his death and personal judgment. It is also equally clear that after this event Abraham was “tested by God” (Gen 22:1) I take it at face value: God tested Abraham, Abraham passed the test, after the test God said that “now I know” how devoted you are, and God then “blessed” Abraham “because” he acted obediently. You, predictably, ignore this section of Scripture as irrelevant, insignificant, anthropomorphic, non-salvific or whatever else in an apparent attempt IMO to cling to your OSAS, faith alone theology. I find it no different than the twisting - make that torturing - of Scripture that occurred in the discussions of inheriting the KOG. The funny thing is that all of a sudden - what “God said” requires significant spin in order to understand why “what God said” doesnt actually mean what God said.
Cases in point:

• The “no one” in "No one who (commits these sins) has any inheritance in the KOG
• The “grace” in “you have fallen from grace” does not actually refer to a salvific grace
• The “unjust” doesnt refer to the individuals who Paul accuses, in the preceding verse, as “inflicting injustice” when he says “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the KOG?”
• The introductory “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” in James 2 somehow doesnt determine the context as being about salvation even when James concludes the section by answering that initial question with “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?” and then ends the discussion with, “For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

So if you wish to imply that Im the one who can’t take God at his word, that is fine. I do, however, think you should take a good, long, hard look in the mirror.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

MD in Christ,

The witness is not found in Gen 22 itself, but is instead found in two other places in scripture. Once in the OT and once in the NT. Here are the quotes:

James 2:21-23 makes reference to Abraham having faith when he was tested and was to sacrifice his son Isaac upon the altar(Gen 22:1-12) and James says that the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.”

1 Mac. 2:52 also addresses Gen 22 and it says: “Was not Abraham found faithful when tested [Gn 22:1ff], and it was reckoned to him as righteousness?”

Since both of these reference the instance of Abraham sacrificing Isaac and since both say that " it was reckoned to him as righteousness" it is necessary to accept the explanation of Genesis 22 in the way I presented it. I cannot go against the inspired word of God and accept your view.

God bless.

Beautifully succinct and clear Pax!

It’s also very interesting what else James says about Gen 15:6:

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”

Notice that James sees the “credit of righteousness” spoken of in Gen 15:6 as being sort of prophetic, or a revelation of something yet to come. Not a completed, perfected event as MD would have us believe. The inspired word of God says that the righteousness credited in Gen 15:6 was yet to be fully completed qualitatively; that is why he says that “faith was completed by the works”.
In addition, he reiterates that the credit of righteousness was not completely fulfilled at that point in time(ie temporally), but was so only later on, when Abraham offered Isaac on the alter. That is why he says “Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says”… The “thus” in that statement means, “in that way”, and refers to the fact that the offering of Isaac “fulfilled” the “credit of righteousness” spoken of in Gen 15:6.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

According to Catholic doctrine there are certain “mortal” sins. Show me the Biblical text that lists them. Where does John say here is the list of “mortal” sins. Here is his list of “venial” sins?

Oh my goodness, MD, you are exasperating! Let me take you by the hand brother, and show you the light. You might wish to sit down because this could come as a shock. Remember the texts we were discussing that Paul listed as excluding one from the KOG? Well that list** is **a list of mortal sins! They kill your spiritual life and as such are mortal (deadly). And you know how James says that if your faith is barren of good works that it is then dead? That is another mortal sin: choosing not to walk in the good deeds that God has prepared before hand. Here are the texts one more time and a summary from them…

From 1Cor 6
Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
From Gal 5
You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, %between% drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
From Eph 5
Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
James 2
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

So what do we have for “the list” of mortal sins?

• idolatry
• fornication, homosexuality, sodomy, orgies, and the like.
• thievery, robbery
• greed
• drunkenness, drinking bouts
• slander
• attempting to be justified by works of the law
• failing to do the good works of loving one’s neighbor
• immorality, impurity, licentiousness
• sorcery,
• hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness
• dissensions, factions, occasions of envy

It is not a complete list, but it’s a good start based on the texts we have been discussing…

Blessings!

 

[twb1621]

According to Catholic doctrine there are certain “mortal” sins. Show me the Biblical text that lists them. Where does John say here is the list of “mortal” sins. Here is his list of “venial” sins?

According to Catholic doctrine you are wrong, there are as many mortal sins as the human mind can conceive.

CCC:
1857 For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

**1858 **Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

**1860 **Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

**1861 **Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

MD, it would be extremely beneficial on your own part to realize you make these interpretations of Scripture that oppose Scripture due to your desired beliefs, this gravely due to the fact you break passages down to such a small fractional quote for your desired interpretation you ignore the remainder of the verses and passages. Now you are doing the same things (and have been) with the Catholic doctrines which I have proven by the quote of the Catechism of the Catholic Church above. Do you realize you are only interfering with your own learning by your misguided insistence?

And again, you have also made it clear when I or others bring these facts to you with the extended Scriptural quotes directly related to those you previously referred to, you refuse to respond and completely move on to something else. Are you here to discuss honestly and with a devotion to Christ to find what the truth is regardless of where it takes you or are you going to allow your pride to come before truth? Do you think you know better and understand more clearly what the Apostles taught than the Apostolic Fathers who learned from them as accompanying disciples taught directly, not from Gospel writings and who wrote of those teachings throughout early Church History? I know I asked this before but you repeatedly avoid response which does not reflect well of your intentions.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

So, IOW, based on your interpretation Catholics never should pray for someone who’s committed a “mortal” sin. He/she is damned and no prayer should be said on his/her behalf. Only if someone commits a non-mortal sin is prayer allowed. And where does the Apostle John list these “mortal” sins and “non-mortal” sins? I don’t want your opinion, or any man’s opinion, but rather provide for me the Biblical text which lists those sins for which Christ did not die.

I assume you believe in the Holy Trinity. Tell us where exactly it states the Holy Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is Three Person but One Nature. Tell us where it says Incarnation (which I assume you also believe) in the Bible.

We obeyed Christ’s command today when He told us to eat His body and drink His blood (faith and work). We kept the Sabbath Holy (faith and work). We prayed (work). Our works can send us straight to hell; but why can they not also help us in the attainment of eternal salvation? It is written all over the Bible. I certainly do see how one can misunderstand when it says stuff about faith though.

Read 2 Thessalonians chapters 3 (which all Catholics on the planet heard today).

Nobody is saying there are sins for which Christ did not die. Christ’s blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins and that includes every single sin ever invented or innovated. But, in order for things to be more clear, we must label sins as the Bible says them. It does not say venial or mortal (I do not think so anyway) just like it does not say Incarnation, Trinity, Bible… I venture to say that it does not even say Crucifixion. That is just a guess. I cannot recall but I am certainly known to be wrong. I was atheist. These are not man’s opinions, just label made by man to make distinctions throughout the Bible. God gave us intelligence and imagination for a reason.

Moral of the story is that we have to label things. What John says in his letter, we had to label it for ease.

And we do pray for people who are in mortal sin. John was just saying (albeit ambiguously) that it is ultimately up to that person who is in mortal sin to accept that forgiveness through the Sacrament of Confession. As usual, you are wrong in your assumptions about Catholic teaching.

This is a sincere question for you: Is there a difference between sinning by stealing a bubble gum and sinning by blaspheming the Holy Spirit? If yes, that is our label of venial sin (former) and mortal sin (latter). If not, explain. I am not talking about the idea of sinning. Sinning either way is a separation from God Himself. You sin too. You are not a saint. I sin worse than you but I am just saying that to make you not fall into that trap of pride. All sins are bad, very bad. Venial sins we confess to God. Mortal sins we confess to God in the Sacrament of Penance to receive God’s graces through the ministry of His Church. I know more about the Catholic Church than you do just like you know more than me about “BAC”. Excuse my ignorance, but what is BAC anyway?

As an exercise for you, tell us where it says Incarnation, Trinity, Bible, Holy Spirit is God and Jesus is God in the Bible. Some are easy but some are harder than you think without referring to Catholic teaching.

 

[Pax]

The faith by which God reckoned to Abraham righteousness occurred some 20 years earlier. Read Gen. 15:6. Isaac wasn’t even born yet, only promised. Gen. 15:6 is the ONLY place where it’s recorded that God reckoned righteousness to Abraham. IOW, Abraham was justified before God only once. And that was back in Gen. 15:6. You won’t find it in Gen. 22.

MD in Christ,

Please go back and read post #943 and Phil’s reiteration in #965. You are simply wrong about this issue and your argument fails because scripture says just the opposite of what you claim.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

MD in Christ,

I asked the following question a couple of times:

Would you agree that Paul uses “circumcision” as his principle example of works righteousness of the law against the Judaizers in his arguments for justification by faith?

Since you’ve been busy answering other posts, I’ll answer this one for you and then proceed from there. Paul refers to circumcision, or a derivative term such as circumcised or uncircumcision over thirty times, in his writings. All of this is essentially for the purpose of refuting the Judaizers and their push for justification under the OT law. So the answer is “yes”…Paul uses circumcision as his principle example of works righteousness of the law.

That fact is crucial in understanding Paul’s message and it is no accident that we find some very important statements by Paul when he is speaking about circumcision. The following passages show the message Paul is trying to get across and it is most certainly not “faith alone.” Please note the things that he contrasts with circumcision in the passages.

1 Cor 7:19
For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, **but keeping the commandments of God. **

Gal 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Gal 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Col 2:11
In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ;

Please notice that the works of the OT law are epitomized by Paul using the example of circumcision.

In contrast, Paul empahasizes putting off the body of the flesh. In other words don’t live in sin and do not depend upon human effort, but instead depend upon God’s grace in all that we do.

In contrast Paul emphasizes being a new creation, and we know that he means being a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works per Eph 2:10.

Likewise, circumcision, which is the principle example of the works of OT law is of no avail, but faith “working through love” is of avail.

Moreover, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but keeping the commandments of God most certainly does.

This is why faith alone is bogus for salvation, and this is why we need to always keep Eph 2:10 in mind when we read Eph 2:8-9 and everything else that Paul says when speaking of faith and works.

God bless.