Faith alone or not?

[Hiskid1973]

"We are saved by faith but not faith alone as scripture tells us The fact that you added “maturing " shows that works are necessary along with faith. How does one mature if not by odedience which leads to righteousness”

You don’t think those who don’t mature much make it to heaven ?What work did the thief accomplish in his last minute conversion experience ? I know someone who just died of cancer and had a conversion experience a week before he died… What about those who just have ash at their judgment …Their still saved after the works are burned…Is that when they get sent to purgatory, after the works are tried…Your saying that happens immediately after we each die and not at the judgment seat of Christ…What scripture tells it is separate from the judgment seat of Christ ?

“Can one have faith, not keep the commandments and have eternal life? Yes or no.”

There is more to spiritual maturity than following His commandments…I know quite a few people over the years catholic and non catholics alike who are still not much mature than when they come to Christ…Not everyone is totally obedient to God’s will…We walk in the flesh at times, some more so that others…Rewards are the benefit not the door we knock on to enter heaven…Behold I stand at the door and knocks,if anyone opens the door He will come in…Works are the byproduct to a new life in Christ by faith…

“There is no such thing as “jewels in the crown” in the sense that you have been taught. There is one reward that the saved will receive and that is eternal life.
“For he will render to every man according to his works…eternal life” Romans 2:6-7.”

You say jewels in a crown…I said He will hand out various crowns to some…Read Revelation…He has one crown for those who are looking for His return, it is scripture…Our good works will translate to gold silver and precious stones…Jesus knows what we will do with them…I just surmise we will be able to offer them to Him…Does your church tell you what we will do with them ?

"There will be those who will be "rewarded "with the gift of a fuller beatific vision of God. Those who were martyred for the faith, those who fed the poor and clothed the hungery like a Mother Teresa. Those who faithfully taught the true gospel and were an example of faith, hope and charity.

Not sure what fuller beatific vision is( what scriptures go with that) ? What will the just regular Joe christian receive ? I thought we all get all. that God has for us in heaven…

"You have probably been told that one cannot lose his salvation he can only lose his “rewards”. This false teaching comes from a mis-interpretation of 1 Cor 3 which is speaking of purgatory where we will “suffer loss” yet be saved “as through fire”

I don’t believe I know anyone who has walked away from a living faith they once had…I’ve been around people who have put their faith in Christ only to put Him on the back burner and ended up with some much trouble and frustration they put their focus back on the Lord…I know names can be blotted out…I thought about this many times and wonder if all who are born are written in then God brings opportunity’s in our lives to accept or reject Him…That why the god of this world keeps his hands busy seeking to steal kill and destroy those children…

Anyway it is good sorting this out with you…May the Lord bless you and draw you closer to Him in these last days…K

 

[Carlan]

Third Day, "There will be those who will be "rewarded "with the gift of a fuller beatific vision of God. Those who were martyred for the faith, those who fed the poor and clothed the hungery like a Mother Teresa. Those who faithfully taught the true gospel and were an example of faith, hope and charity.

Hiskid,

Not sure what fuller beatific vision is( what scriptures go with that) ? What will the just regular Joe christian receive ? I thought we all get all. that God has for us in heaven…

(2 Cor 3:18)  All of us gazing on the Lord's Glory with unveiled faces are being transformed from Glory to Glory into his very image by the Lord who is Spirit.

Glory is for Christians a partly fulfilled reality into which we can grow.
Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Pope Benedict XVI has a gift of re-stating the gospel message[sup]1[/sup] to show Catholic teaching through a spirit of ecumenism that stresses a commonality of belief but without provoking non-Catholic defensive responses and avoids inciting charges of Catholic Triumphalism when the theology is irrefutable. He likes to go to the source of all knowledge and grace - Christ; but he simply avoids rudely pointing to the obvious that the river of grace flows through His Body - His Catholic Church (which has informal members who may not yet realize they are Catholic ).

**[sup]1[/sup]John 14:15 If you love me you will keep my commandments,” **

BF

yes, BF, he has a wonderful way about him. Very endearing to all of us.
Peace, Carlan

 

[bona_fides_1]

bona fides:

Pope Benedict XVI has a gift of re-stating the gospel message1 to show Catholic teaching through a spirit of ecumenism that stresses a commonality of belief but without provoking non-Catholic defensive responses and avoids inciting charges of Catholic Triumphalism when the theology is irrefutable. He likes to go to the source of all knowledge and grace - Christ; but he simply avoids rudely pointing to the obvious that the river of grace flows through His Body - His Catholic Church (which has informal members who may not yet realize they are Catholic ).

1John 14:15 If you love me you will keep my commandments,”

BF

yes, BF, he has a wonderful way about him. Very endearing to all of us.
Peace, Carlan

That one verse “if you love me you will keep my commandments” can be taken in two distinctly different tones. One tonal is an imperative – essentially a commandment that mandates we keep Christ’s commandments as a demonstration or proof of love. But the tone that Benedict XVI teaches here is another one all together - a reaction to love and friendship with Christ. One keeps commandments as an inevitable and supernaturally empowering consequence of supernatural love and friendship for Christ. Where the first intensifies the laws the second makes the law a natural and all empowering consequence of love. Yet both tones are simultaneously true - but incomplete unless taken together. The first is a diagnosis and a symptom of the person who fully loves Christ (where defects in love are manifest as occasions of sin). The 2nd is the medicine that makes it possible.

This is just another example of how it is imperative to have an apostolic teaching tradition to set context and tone behind the teachings since those “tone-dead” to the apostolic teaching have ears and hear the exact same words Catholics do - but hear in many cases a different message entirely.

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Reading scripture and hearing the Lord’s voice in scripture are two different things. Sola scriptura is materially wrong but could be ecumenically bridged if it were changed to “sola auris”. That’s essentially a formula for the magisterium and the apostolic teaching framework; which is a large and wide pasture with ample room for individuals to run and safely roam right up to the fence line of defined heresy.

BF

 

[Third_Day]

=Hiskid1973;6899576]"You don’t think those who don’t mature much make it to heaven

to mature means to grow in love for God and neighbor. Love is a necessary work of grace. Faith is not alone when it is with love.

What work did the thief accomplish in his last minute conversion experience

His repentance was a good work. His admittance of sin was a good work
His humility was a good work. All done because he cooperated with God’s grace.

I know someone who just died of cancer and had a conversion experience a week before he died…

DId he confess his sins? Was he sorry for offending God? Those are works prompted by grace.

What about those who just have ash at their judgment

…IF they died in sanctfying grace then they are saved.

Their still saved after the works are burned…Is that when they get sent to purgatory, after the works are tried…

Only the saved go to purgatory where their works will be tested by fire. They will be rewarded for their works of gold and precious stones. Their sinful works, wood hay and stubble will be purified from the soul and the person will be purified as through fire. Sinful works that are deadly ( 1 John 5:16-17) cannot be purfied because they destroy the soul. That person is sent directly to hell.

Your saying that happens immediately after we each die and not at the judgment seat of Christ…What scripture tells it is separate from the judgment seat of Christ ?

Hebrews 9:27 “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment.”

There is more to spiritual maturity than following His commandments

.
You must have overlooked the question I asked. Can one have faith, not keep the commandments and still have eternal life? Yes or no

.Works are the byproduct to a new life in Christ by faith…

If you do not have works in your faith are you still saved?

I said He will hand out various crowns to some…Read Revelation…He has one crown for those who are looking for His return, it is scripture

"
Are you saying that one cannot lose their salvation, they can only lose their rewards?
.

Not sure what fuller beatific vision is( what scriptures go with that)

My favorite is “There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory for the stars, for star differs from star in glory” 1 Cor. 15:41

What will the just regular Joe christian receive

Joe Christian that dies in the state of grace will receive the reward of eternal life after being purfied in purgatory if necessary. Nothing impure can enter heaven . Rev 21

I thought we all get all. that God has for us in heaven…

IN heaven their are many mansions. There will be varying degrees of blessedness in heaven.

I don’t believe I know anyone who has walked away from a living faith they once had

…That’s not because they are already guaranteed salvation. It is because they are cooperating with God’s saving grace.

.

I’ve been around people who have put their faith in Christ only to put Him on the back burner and ended up with some much trouble and frustration they put their focus back on the Lord…I know names can be blotted out…

Anyone can backslide into sin. They must do works of confession and repentance to regain their saving grace.

I thought about this many times and wonder if all who are born are written in then God brings opportunity’s in our lives to accept or reject Him

…God wants all men to be saved. He sends everyone enough grace to be saved. Because we have free will we can accept or reject His grace. Once we accept His grace we must then cooperate with that grace and do the good works that He has prepared for us. If we fail to do good works like keeping the commandments then we are rejecting His grace and we will not be saved.

That why the god of this world keeps his hands busy seeking to steal kill and destroy those children…

As Paul says we are not fighting against flesh and blood but against the evil one. This is why we must confess and repent everytime we sin not just once. If we say we are saved just because we have faith we have deceived ourselves.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Third day.
I see were your going with this. Apparently to you everything we do is a work. ie repentance a good work…Repentance is the key component in choosing to follow Christ and needed to maintain a healthy relationship with Him…

So basically in your perspective our works do get us to heaven because anything we
in positive in our walk is a work…Is this a normal catholic belief that repentance is a “good work”. The thief’s good work was “believing” ? Everything that is a tenet of faith is a good work, correct…No wonder you believe “works” save you…If all the basic tenets we do to chose to follow Christ is a good work then we are working our way to heaven…See where I am going here…Say we are going through a dark time in our soul…The heavens feel like brass…Were in a rut , not praying…We die that evening we’re in danger of hell because we are not responding positive to His grace at any moment in time.

What about Eph 2:8-9
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What works are they boasting about, their repentance?

I know a few people right now who are struggling with their faith one is a Catholic…Their doing all they can just to maintain their faith let alone caring /doing for others…

I don’t think anything I do earns me a spot in heaven…My faith in Christ puts me there…Now receiving rewards or lack of them at the judgment seat of Christ, now that’s a different story…

 

[xuebao]

Thanks for this site very helpful.

---

wedding dresses sale and runescape gold

 

[Holly3278]

Here are some articles that may be helpful in disproving the salvation by faith alone theory:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9304fea1.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9710chap.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9306clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302clas.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp

God Bless,
Holly

 

[bona_fides_1]

Third day.
I see were your going with this. Apparently to you everything we do is a work. ie repentance a good work…Repentance is the key component in choosing to follow Christ and needed to maintain a healthy relationship with Him…

So basically in your perspective our works do get us to heaven because anything we
in positive in our walk is a work…Is this a normal catholic belief that repentance is a “good work”. The thief’s good work was “believing” ? Everything that is a tenet of faith is a good work, correct…No wonder you believe “works” save you…If all the basic tenets we do to chose to follow Christ is a good work then we are working our way to heaven…See where I am going here…Say we are going through a dark time in our soul…The heavens feel like brass…Were in a rut , not praying…We die that evening we’re in danger of hell because we are not responding positive to His grace at any moment in time.

What about Eph 2:8-9
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What works are they boasting about, their repentance?

I know a few people right now who are struggling with their faith one is a Catholic…Their doing all they can just to maintain their faith let alone caring /doing for others…

I don’t think anything I do earns me a spot in heaven…My faith in Christ puts me there…Now receiving rewards or lack of them at the judgment seat of Christ, now that’s a different story…

HI HisKid - it sounds like you put a lot of heart and thought into your posts. You have convictions and are sincere. God clearly is at work in you.

I think your assertion that to Catholics everything is a work is probably an accurate one. But here we must discern two general categories of work: 1) non-servitude work that are seperate from grace and 2) supernatural works - that are a response to grace. I like to think of the individual as a musical instrument. We each have our own tonal qualities. We can sing or emit natural human sounds on our own that may sound unique and pleasing in one limited sense but when played and winded by the Spirit of God our music becomes supernatural and part of a divine orchestra - Divine Providence. It is because we exist in a sea of God’s universal grace (what we call actual grace) that any natural-man can do any good at all. But it is by sanctifying grace (divinizing grace) that natural man is transformed and becomes a divine instrument in God’s hands to cooperate with Him to serve Him and please Him and inspire others to join in as well. Summarizing, only supernatural works merit us anything with God - and it is only possible to do good supernatural works when we are in communion with God and not disgraced (fallen in grave post baptismal sin).

But faith itself is a work. You have said it yourself that faith is not easy for all people at all times - especially when put to the test and when things don’t go as we expect or hope. Scripture tells us this plainly:

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

As to the Good Thief - look to the amazing work he DID! The thief’s words of faith in Jesus and in his support and affirmation in Jesus are indelibly written into scripture FOREVER! "

*Luke 23:40-42 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” 42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." *

How many people do you know who have done a work so great as the good thief did such that their good words are forever etched in scripture as a testimony and eternal witness? Remember that Christ is the Living Word of God - the words spoken by the Good Thief are part of Jesus Himself and written in His Heart! That is an amazing work! Consider too the suffering of the good theif in speaking his words of faith and support of Jesus. A man being crucified is under severe pain and slow strangulation for lack of ability to breathe. Hanging on the cross under the pain of crucifixation each and every breath requires pushing up against the nails and one’s own body weight to take in a very labored breath of air to expand the lungs them let one back down again to rest. It’s excruciating pain and labor. So to speak requires precious breath - more pain and suffering. Every word the Good Thief spoke was at the cost of more pain and agony to refill his lungs with air just to speak. Compare that to the useless bad thief who spent his suffering only to curse & mock Jesus!

There are so many morals in this Good Thief account that the short works (by time but not by worth!) he did are profound. One that I like is this observation - we are all descendants of thieves from the garden of Eden account (i.e. stealing the forbidden fruit). We are all justly accused to die for that original crime. So if we are all to suffer either side of Christ at His left and at His right TOGETHER WITH Christ’s suffering then why not suffer for good on Christ’s right and enter paradise rather than on His left to suffer for naught but hell?

The Good Thief’s works were profound and supernatural works given by God and bound up to God for His own purposes. Here we see His purpose is to teach us and to inspire us as to how God can make a last moment of life late-work for God a labor of eternal consequence that will never be forgotten and which is eternally rewarded. God shares the Suffering (Christ right there between the 2 thieves) AND the Glory (with those that identify with Him)…

BF

 

[thenobes]

We can’t earn, but we can merit salvation. In fact, we must merit salvation. What is the difference? To earn is to bind another to accepting a payment for a desired good. To merit is to be intrinsicly worthy of some good, which my be given by someone who is known to reward such worthiness.

God can only bind Himself, and the are no works which he has said alone willgain salvation, only the holding of faith.

So I am saying that holding faith makes one worthy, that is, it merits salvation. How are we made worthy? By being conformed to Christ. This is the work of God (see Phillipians 2 how God accomplishes this) and will follow from Faith as long as we do not hinder the work of the Holy Spirit within us, especially His work in is to have us repent and produce works worthy of such repentance. This configures us to Christ.

I have justified bolded…There is NOTHING we do to earn our salvation…Being justified by faith is maturing in/with that gift of a new life with Christ…We can enhance our walk yearning to hear a "well done good and faithful servant but the salvic part is Christ’s alone…The good works or lack of them has nothing to do with that free gift…Works or lack of them is topping on the dessert provided by the Lord…Yes our works are tested and this has nothing to with salvation…This is just for those believing…I imagine is will be a sad disheartening time time for those who never sought to grow and mature in their walk with Christ…To just stand before Christ with a pile of ash…I don’t really see this will be an ongoing event (ie varied times in purgatory for some) but a one time event…What about living believers at the last trump, they will be lifted to Jesus in the clouds in a twinkling of an eye…Purgatory will have to be a very quick in that scenario.
Anyway as for rewards/crowns that will be a joyous time for some…I can see Billy Graham a well as regular Joe’s receiving a “soul winners” crowns for sharing to others how then can become born anew in Christ… H even has a crown waiting for those looking for His return…As always these are non catholic thoughts…Check the scriptures for everything… Grace and peace to you…

The good works have a great deal to do with the free gift of salvation. Per Eph 2 they are part and parcel of that salvation, being prepared beforehand that we may walk in them. Obviously it is a work of the Holy Spirit that we walk in them. To resist these works is to deaden our fath. To assent to them maintains a living faith.

Thus assenting to works is definitely necessaary.

peace
steve

 

[Third_Day]

=Hiskid1973;6900645]Third day.
I see were your going with this. Apparently to you everything we do is a work. ie repentance a good work…Repentance is the key component in choosing to follow Christ and needed to maintain a healthy relationship with Him…

I can’t say it any better than bona fides and thenobes said it.

So basically in your perspective our works do get us to heaven because anything we in positive in our walk is a work…Is this a normal catholic belief that repentance is a “good work”. The thief’s good work was “believing” ? Everything that is a tenet of faith is a good work, correct…

As scripture says believing is a work (John 6:29)

No wonder you believe “works” save you…

Not my works but my works done by the grace God has given me. That is why James says we are justified by works (of grace) and not by faith alone.

If all the basic tenets we do to chose to follow Christ is a good work then we are working our way to heaven

God rewards us with grace when we do His good works . That is why Paul says in Philippians 2:12 “work out your own salvation in fear and trembling for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
If we reject God grace to work in us we will not be saved. We will backslide into sin. That is why Paul says to “work out your own salvaition in fear and trembling”. We must cooperate with God’s grace and let it work in us.

See where I am going here…Say we are going through a dark time in our soul…The heavens feel like brass…Were in a rut , not praying…We die that evening we’re in danger of hell because we are not responding positive to His grace at any moment in time.

We are in danger of hell only if we have unrepented mortal sin on our souls. Not all sin is equal. Some are mortal some are not ( 1 John 5:16-17)

What about Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
What works are they boasting about, their repentance?

Paul is speaking to Jewish Christians that believed that the works of the Mosaic law could save them. They believe that circumcision could save them.That is the works that Paul is speaking about… Paul is not saying we are saved apart from keeping the commandments. If fact he tell the new Christians at Corinth “For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision. What counts is keeping the commandments of God.” 1 Cor. 7:19

Paul is also stating Catholic Dogma. We are saved by grace. We cannot save ourselves without God’s grace. That is something that the Jewish Christians had a hard time accepting. Saved by grace and not by circumcision and dietary laws was new to them

I know a few people right now who are struggling with their faith one is a Catholic…Their doing all they can just to maintain their faith let alone caring /doing for others…

All Christians struggle because we have a sinful nature. If he is caring for others because he feels obligated then he is doing it for the wrong reason. He should be doing it for the love of God. Very few of us are called to be a Mother Theresa who gave up her life to care for others. God gives different gifts to people. Your friend should just submit himself to God’s grace and let the grace work in him. If he feels that he must be constantly helping others then he is judging himself in the wrong way.

I don’t think anything I do earns me a spot in heaven…My faith in Christ puts me there

…
What if you commit adultery and do not repent. Does your faith alone put you there? The apostles had faith yet Jesus said to them “If you do not forgive others your Father in heaven will not forgive you.”( Matthew 6:14-15)

Now receiving rewards or lack of them at the judgment seat of Christ, now that’s a different story…

When we are at the judgment seat of Christ and we give an account of ourself we will receive eternal life or eternal hell. As Paul clearly tells us we must remain in God’s grace "or you too will be cut off ( Romans 11:22)

And as Jesus tells us “Enter by the narrow gate for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few.” Matt. 7:13-14

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” Mat. 7:19

“Not everyone who says “Lord ,Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”

What is the will of God?
“For this is the will of God, your sanctification, that you abstain from immorality…for God has not called us for uncleanness but holiness. Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who give his Holy Spirit to you.” 1 Thess. 4:3-8

 

[Hiskid1973]

Thanks to all above for peaceful and respectful interchange…I think we agree on much but wording gets in the way…Merit gives me sort of a scary connotation like we sort of deserve it and some of our salvic gift come us…Reading about the 1Cor. 3 judgment is showing me there are those who were weak/immature entering heaven as their saved but have no works that revealed much gold ,silver and precious stones…I imagine seeing/experiencing that would be sorrowful enough to know what you could have received … I guess I also cant wrap myself around purgatory from that scripture as some has said alone with each having our own 1 Cor 3 experience right after we each die and apart from the judgment seat of Christ…I guess I don’t read enough about some Christians going right with Jesus and others sent to some holding ares where others pray them out…I know about the debtors prison verse, but reading it in contect of the other verses doesn’t lead me to the prugatory idea …I had alot of Catholic neighbors at the last place we live…Seems all the Catholics I knew seem to not want to discus their faith with others like the fundy evangelicals do…That’s why I came here to talk with my fellow Catholic brethren…I plugged into an end times group in the Back Fence that I didn’t know Catholic end timers existed…
Anyway I am rambling here…Thanks again for the peaceful interaction…

Grace and peace to you…K

PS As for John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I don’t see Jesus saying our believing is a work but it is HIS work…

 

[Third_Day]

=Hiskid1973;6901733]…Merit gives me sort of a scary connotation like we sort of deserve it and some of our salvic gift come us…

Merit is just another way to say “reward”

Reading about the 1Cor. 3 judgment is showing me there are those who were weak/immature entering heaven as their saved but have no works that revealed much gold ,silver and precious stones

.
But is says that the man will suffer and he will be saved as through fire… That is a perfect description of purgatory

.I plugged into an end times group in the Back Fence that I didn’t know Catholic end timers existed…

Catholics do not believe in the rapture of all believers before the tribulation or that CHrist will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years. That is not in the bible or tradition.

PS As for John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that **ye believe **on him whom he hath sent. I don’t see Jesus saying our believing is a work but it is HIS work…

But WE must believe and that is our work made possible by our responding to His grace.

 

[RobBahoura]

Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.

Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only

 

[Hiskid1973]

Here’s the thing as were just going to go in circles…If you feel believing is a work and
repenting is a work nothing I say will change your mind…I just know some at the judgment seat will end up with a lot of flesh work that will turn to ash, they still are saved…Jesus told a group feed, clothes ect…These I see as good works…My neighbor isn’t walking with Christ and couldn’t mow his lawn…I told him to get the parts and I’l fix both mowers…They make probably make 80 grand together and didn’t offer me a penny for all the labor…but they came to me telling me about thier dad dying and I was able to encourage them back to thier faith a litte and talk about thier dad making his peace with God…That’s what I call a good work…Our church has a food bank and feeding program…We can bring groceries for the food bank and serve them and hand out groceries when they go…That is what I label as a good work…That what stores up treasures in heaven…Works of flesh wll produce ash…I’m sure most of us will have some ash mixed in with the jewels…peace to you…

 

[guanophore]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

I really do think such a phrase is confusing, especially with our evangelical separated brethren. I prefer not to use it at all. I like “faith, working through love” much better. We are saved by faith alone, but it is the quality of the faith where some of us differ in understanding . The Apostles taught that faith that does not work is “dead faith”. So for us, faith that saves is faith that works. The reason we say that it is not “faith alone” is because faith is never alone .Scripture says that “these three abide, faith, hope, and love”. Where saving faith is present, hope and love (works of righteousness) are also present.

Deeds that can justify us are only those deeds that are done with saving faith. That is why the works of righteousness under the law were not saving for the Jews. Only when they are done in saving faith can they have a justifying effect.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Someone mentioned James 2:24…How do you define justification ?

Ok here is James 2…Lets see what works are mentioned as an expression of Gods working in our lives…

James 2:14 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Works naturally flow from a reborn life growing in Christ…Some will enter the judgment seat not producing much gold, silver and precious stones…They will still be saved after their works are burned and show as ash…I can only imaging the heartache that they will experience but I sure they will experience elation after-wards for God "s grace…We all see through a glass darkly, but when we see Him we will be with Him…

 

[guanophore]

I have justified bolded…There is NOTHING we do to earn our salvation…Being justified by faith is maturing in/with that gift of a new life with Christ…

We are in agreement that it is not possible for us to “earn” salvation, however, Catholics understand salvation differently than those brethren of ours who have been separated from the Apostolic Tradition for 500 and some years. New doctrines have emerged during that time that are a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

We also do not believe that being justified by faith requires maturation in the gift. When a person is baptized, the Apostles taught, he is cleansed from all sin, both personal, and original. If a person dies in such a state of spiritual infancy, they will go directly to heaven.

Those that remain alive have a responsibility to mature in their faith, and this process involves doing the good works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We can enhance our walk yearning to hear a "well done good and faithful servant but the salvic part is Christ's alone...The good works or lack of them has nothing to do with that free gift....Works or lack of them is topping on the dessert provided by the Lord...

I think this is one of the most damaging modern innovations of American Evangelicalism. Scripture is clear that the HS is at work within the justified person to will and to do His good will. For that reason, we are to strive, and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The attempt to separate our responsibility to walk with God from our salvation is very spiritually dangerous.

Many of our evangelical brethren frequently quote Eph. 2:8&9 and stop before v. 10. The Apostles, however, did not separate these spiritual truths from one another.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Works are not “dessert” on salvation, but an integral part of it. We are saved FOR these good works, and we SHOULD walk in them. The faith in us that meets with His grace justifying us is the same that produces the good works He has prepared for us. They are an outgrowth of His workmanship in us.

Yes our works are tested and this has nothing to with salvation…This is just for those believing…

Yes, the testing of our works is indeed only for the saved. However, the apostles taught that this purging of all that is not of God from ourselves is also part of salvation.

I imagine is will be a sad disheartening time  time for those who never sought to grow and mature in their walk with Christ...To just stand before Christ with a pile of ash...I don't really see this will be an ongoing event (ie varied times in purgatory for some) but a one time event...

Yes, we will suffer, as Scripture clearly states, when those “dead works” are separated from us. I think you are right, that the experience of this purging is different for different people. We also tend to forget that this happens outside the space time continuum, so length of suffereing does not apply.

What about living believers at the last trump, they will be lifted to Jesus in the clouds in a twinkling of an eye…Purgatory will have to be a very quick in that scenario.

Jesus is able to purge people instantly, of course.

anyway as for rewards/crowns that will be a joyous time for some…I can see Billy Graham a well as regular Joe’s receiving a “soul winners” crowns for sharing to others how then can become born anew in Christ… H even has a crown waiting for those looking for His return…As always these are non catholic thoughts…Check the scriptures for everything… Grace and peace to you…

When Catholics “check the scriptures” we do so in the light of what the Apostles believed and taught, which is why we understand them differently than those who are separated from these teachings.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Those that remain alive have a responsibility to mature in their faith, and this think this is one of the most damaging modern innovations of American Evangelicalism. Scripture is clear that the HS is at work within the justified person to will and to do His good will. For that reason, we are to strive, and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The attempt to separate our responsibility to walk with God from our salvation is very spiritually dangerous…

First off…I have seen you in threads before and appreciate the grace you walk in in the way you respond to others…You are able to show your point and still respect the other posters…Something I see lacking in others here…Anyway I think we agree more then we realize…I have no problem with works being part of our justification like icing on His work…There are varying degrees of maturity in all but they all still get to heaven from the shed blood of Christ…We see in 1 Cor 3 people still getting save with their work turning to ash…I still see benefits with rewards of the works but don’t see the works or lack of them in the package that is what gets us to heaven…Probable the definition of what y’all see as a work is probably where we disagree most…repentance, belief ect…Is that a standard catholic doctrine? I put James 2:24 up and it even gave some example of works…I’m done, my brain is gelled and my eyes achin…See ya tomorrow…God bless you dear saint of Christ

 

[guanophore]

regarding good works, is contrary to what I’ve been taught.
Specifically, what Protestants are you talking about?
Jon

This is a Modern American Evangelical innovation that is extrapolated from the concept of “accounted as righteousness”.

Paul writes about our accounts being “credited”. But many modern evangelicals think this is about doctoring the books ie, declared righteous, rather than made righteous - it also follows on the snow covered dung heap image.