Faith alone or not?

[guanophore]

“Since the sanctification of man is in the power of God who sanctifies, it is not in the competency of man to choose the things by which he is to be sanctified, but this must be determined by Divine institution.”
– St. Thomas Aquinas, from his Summa Theologica, as excerpted in the article Sacraments

Just noticed this in the rolling quotes on the side of the front page.

If God decides that certain works justify, then that is His perogative, is it not?

 

[vwtaylorii]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

What people mean when they say we are not save by works is that we are not saved by our own, human works (Eph 2: 8-9). We must perform the works that God laid out for us by letting Him work through us (Eph 2:10).

In our initial justification (when we come into the faith), we do not need to do anything. All we need to do is to believe, and we receive God’s grace through our faith from our baptism. However, just because we are saved, that doesn’t mean that our sanctification process is complete. In order to have habitual justification and keep receiving God’s grace, we must do the works that God laid out for us. That is how we workout our salvation (Phil 2: 11-13). It is called faith working through love (Gal 5:6). Therefore, we are not justified by faith alone.

That is what James talking about: habitual justification and doing the works of God.

 

[JonNC]

=guanophore;6902317]I really do think such a phrase is confusing, especially with our evangelical separated brethren. I prefer not to use it at all. I like “faith, working through love” much better. We are saved by faith alone, but it is the quality of the faith where some of us differ in understanding . The Apostles taught that faith that does not work is “dead faith”. So for us, faith that saves is faith that works. The reason we say that it is not “faith alone” is because faith is never alone .Scripture says that “these three abide, faith, hope, and love”. Where saving faith is present, hope and love (works of righteousness) are also present.

You know, my friend, when a Catholic says something like this, I just nod my head in affirmation. This is, in my opinion, the convergence of Lutheran and Catholic understanding of justification.

**Deeds that can justify us **are only those deeds that are done with saving faith. That is why the works of righteousness under the law were not saving for the Jews. Only when they are done in saving faith can they have a justifying effect.

OTOH, I get queasy with this - the idea that our deeds can justify us, or even add to our justification. I agree that good works are only pleasing to God when done in saving faith, but I don’t think they add to our justification. They are clearly required by His commands, and a faith that isn’t growing in grace isn’t a saving faith, but a dead faith.

Then again, maybe I’m not understanding, or maybe it is the language barrier -our notion of justification/sanctification compared to your understanding of ongoing justification.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=vwtaylorii;6903118]What people mean when they say we are not save by works is that we are not saved by our own, human works (Eph 2: 8-9). We must perform the works that God laid out for us by letting Him work through us (Eph 2:10).

I agree with this - another nodding my head in affirmation moment, as I said above to guano.
If then, by faith, we allow the Holy Spirit to work through us, are not those good works His good works, that are His merit? If grace is a free gift, and the good works we do are by grace, how do we gain merit from them?

In our initial justification (when we come into the faith), we do not need to do anything. All we need to do is to believe, and we receive God’s grace through our faith from our baptism. However, just because we are saved, that doesn’t mean that our sanctification process is complete. In order to have habitual justification and keep receiving God’s grace, we must do the works that God laid out for us. That is how we workout our salvation (Phil 2: 11-13). It is called faith working through love (Gal 5:6). Therefore, we are not justified by faith alone.

Pardon the colors. We call the blue justification, and make a distinction between it and the red (sanctification). There is no justification without sanctification.

That is what James talking about: habitual justification and doing the works of God.

Justification, followed by sanctification?

Jon

 

[bona_fides_1]

OTOH, I get queasy with this - the idea that our deeds can justify us, or even add to our justification. I agree that good works are only pleasing to God when done in saving faith, but I don’t think they add to our justification. They are clearly required by His commands, and a faith that isn’t growing in grace isn’t a saving faith, but a dead faith.

Then again, maybe I’m not understanding, or maybe it is the language barrier -our notion of justification/sanctification compared to your understanding of ongoing justification.

Jon

Hmmmm… I see a tension here between two related concepts. You seem to believe that justification is a one time event and justification can not be added to. You also seem to believe that a faith that is not growing is not a saving faith. So would you say that a person can lose their justification by not growing and fully maturing the faith one initially received? Catholic agree that Justification can be lost (unrepented/unabsolved post baptismal grave sin) but the concept of “holiness” is wrapped up in a combined theological framework that brings justification (baptism) with ongoing maturation (sanctification). Works are part of that sanctification process - and God gives us those supernatural works.

Let me provoke a few thoughts by probing with the following questions:

Did not Moses need to climb Mt. Sinai to receive The Law and also take off his sandals to make himself presentable to God when commanded to? Works.

Would you say that Mary’s great fiat (“let it be done to me according to Your Word”) was sufficient without the 40 weeks of cooperative gestation between God and Mary as God formed, developed and grew her initial seed of faith in Him to incarnate Himself as The Christ Child (The Word Made Flesh) in her womb? Sounds like works again.

Would you really say that a mature faith that is harvested at the pinnacle of its maturation/perfection and God’s purpose in service to Himself (ref. Christ on the Cross) is a dead faith since it is no longer growing? I don’t think so - this is perfection and attaining to what all Christians are called to - saintliness and holiness.

I don’t think it follows that Mary “full of grace” (before “The Word” was implanted in her by the Holy Spirit) was no longer growing nor less full of grace after the Christ Child was born . Being “full of grace” is perfection and Mary was blessed among all other women and therefor the highest human soul with the greatest capacity for grace. It should follow that Mary was at her complete and perfect human soul’s capacity for grace before and after the incarnation. Her faith was a living and perfect faith and had no room to grow any further than God had already bestowed upon her. She was certainly not dead for lack of growth but was rather ripe and exploding with grace - so much so that she bore the Christ Child. That said, Mary’s grace and faith was proved and utilized through her perseverance in suffering ( Luke 2:34-35) . This is the nature of grace and of love - suffering because of it and for it. But this is is a joyful suffering that is a work and literal laobor of God.

I could be wrong but I don’t think the old bodybuilding axioms quite always apply for God’s Children (e.g. the ol’ “if you aren’t growing you are dieing” mantra). Serving the Lord as instruments of God’s will for the purpose we are created is a joint divine-human cooperative labor of love. Through cooperative utility we become useful servants to the grace we are given. This is exactly how supernatural works are merited to us and we can gain greater utility by being rewarded “here and now” with greater grace as each may prove worthy of it. Laboring for God is an exercise of grace and an active expression of love - in fact its a necessary response and consequence to true faith and love. But there is only one living God. He is the same One in each and every servant – great or small. No servant of God (with greater or lessor grace) who remains in Christ (the Living God) and serves less than their full potential is dead; such a person simply is entrusted with less; but I’ll concede that such as one may have his lamp-stand removed if he does not continue to suffer to serve for the grace he is given .

An Example:
Martha and Mary (Luke 10:38-42) were both friends and “alive in Christ” - but Mary choose a greater service than did Martha. Martha was more concerned about temporal service to The Lord but was by no means made dead owing to Mary’s own choosing to seek a greater calling to service. We can however deduce that their are greater and lessor rewards in heaven (e.g. being given a greater spiritual capacity to draw deeper into the Beatific Vision so as to better know God as God knows Himself).

BF

 

[JonNC]

=bona fides;6904063]Hmmmm… I see a tension here between two related concepts. You seem to believe that justification is a one time event and justification can not be added to.

Yes, in the sense that justification is monergistic.

You also seem to believe that a faith that is not growing is not a saving faith. So would you say that a person can lose their justification by not growing and fully maturing the faith one initially received?

Yes to the first. Yes to the second, with the qualification that we do fail at times (the need for repentence, confession, and absolution), and I would say with perhaps one exception (and she was quite the unusual case), none of us “fully mature” in our faith, and always have room to grow with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Catholic agree that Justification can be lost (unrepented/unabsolved post baptismal grave sin) but the concept of “holiness” is wrapped up in a combined theological framework that brings justification (baptism) with ongoing maturation (sanctification). Works are part of that sanctification process - and God gives us those supernatural works.

Can’t argue with that.

I’ll come back to the rest later, as I must go.
Jon

 

[Catholic_Dude]

As alutheran, I have no dispute with this.
But this…

regarding good works, is contrary to what I’ve been taught.
Specifically, what Protestants are you talking about?
Jon

I’m talking about all Protestants faithful to the Reformers, especially Luther and Calvin. What I described is Sola Fide properly understood.

Quote:
The Protestant notion of justification has confused and perverted this, grounding justification on the notion of passing an exam. Since we cannot pass the exam, the Protestant says Jesus passed it for us, keeping the Law perfectly in our place. (Something the Bible never teaches) As a result, they believe God gives us a “passing grade” to enter into Heaven. At this point, it logically makes no sense that our ‘works’ play any role in getting to heaven, since God already “Passed” us based on Christ’s perfect test score. THIS is why Protestants object to “works”. While this is logical in many ways, it is not Biblical at all.

Well, that explanation is a very accurate picture of the classical Protestant teaching of Salvation by Faith Alone.

This is a good essay. But I would draw a different conclusion about why Protestants object to works, The real reason is because they need a way to 1st JUSTIFY their faith in Protestants theology SEPARATE from Catholics in order to get to a faith in Jesus alone. Sola Fide has a duality to it - before it is a faith in Jesus alone it is FIRST a faith in Protestant Reformer theology. Think about it - they MUST have a reason to be different from the Catholic Church in order to convince anyone that they have a better mouse trap. Once they have sold the idea of an easier salvation (e.g. no works) they imagine they have the inside track on Christianity that can be easier to teach and evangelize. The problem is its snake oil and there’s no one coming back from the grave to tell anyone its all a bad mistake and even a lie.

The weak link in Protestantism is:

1. Lack of a single scriptural case for rebellion against God’s Church & Authority (closest case is OT Korah’s rebellion - and he was swallowed whole into hell and his followers incinerated into ash)
2. Lack of credibility and poor character of the reformers - not one single sign or miracle and very poor personal character of the principal men involved (murders of competitors, womanizers and established mental instability).
3. Irrational basis for Protestant theology. Just how do men with totally depraved intellects escape their own depravity to come up with a reformed blueprint for the new perfected church? Duh… ironically the blatant irrationality makes the case for total depravity though.

BF

Agreed. Sola Fide as a doctrine is assumed true before anything else, then the Protestant proceeds (even if unconsciously) to do or teach whatever necessary to uphold Sola Fide. See this link for a classic example of presupposing Sola Fide and then doing whatever necessary to prop it up.

 

[SamDC]

Im gonna save a little bit of time and post one of the best responses that I have read regarding ‘Faith alone’ or not. This was originally posted by John VIII. I hope he doesnt mind.

The first key to understanding faith alone or faith not alone is to realize that faith is a “work”. Jesus said, “Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29). Once you realize that faith is just one kind of “work” then you can go to the next key to understanding this: No one work ever has any worth if it is the one and only work exclusivly. This is the point St James tried to make when he said, “And one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?” (James 2:16). In other words you can’t follow Gods Law in part. Or, you can’t follow Jesus right hand and walk away from His left leg at the same time. Faith is one of many works and has no value in terms of the Law if practiced apart from all the other works of God’s Law. Then after understanding this you come to the final key: Salvation if based on Law will condemn all of us, that is why God, in the New Covenant based Salvation on Grace. Christ did the work for us and died for us so that there is no more work left to do for our salvation, except just to enter in to the Rest of the Lord (The true Sabbath). When a person finishes some work that must be done he then rests from his labors. But to enter into this rest of the Lord we have to accept what Christ has done for us. This is done by faith. Faith is the ‘only’ work that we can do that we cannot boast that we really did anything because it gives Christ the credit for accomplishing the salvation not us. But if we are foolish enough to just believe only and refuse to get baptized or obey God thinking that we don’t need to be good in any way other than faith only than that faith cannot continue to live all by itself and it will die and with it will die our salvation as well.

So Salvation is not based on Gods Law, but faith is needed, and faith is a part of Gods Law and faith cannot continue to live separated and apart from Gods law that it is an inseparable part of, being a work of the Law. So good works are needed, indirectly, for salvation, but one particular work, faith, is the only work that is needed directly.

 

[JonNC]

I’m talking about all Protestants faithful to the Reformers, especially Luther and Calvin. What I described is Sola Fide properly understood.

You said:

The Protestant notion of justification has confused and perverted this, grounding justification on the notion of passing an exam. Since we cannot pass the exam, the Protestant says Jesus passed it for us, keeping the Law perfectly in our place. (Something the Bible never teaches) As a result, they believe God gives us a “passing grade” to enter into Heaven. At this point, it logically makes no sense that our ‘works’ play any role in getting to heaven, since God already “Passed” us based on Christ’s perfect test score. **THIS is why Protestants object to “works”. **While this is logical in many ways, it is not Biblical at all.

Lutherans do not object to works.
2. We reject and condemn as offensive and detrimental to Christian discipline the bare expression, when it is said: Good works are injurious to salvation.
From the Epitome of the Formula of Concord.

Works play a role in being obedient to Christ’s commands. As I said, I was never taught your formula. I was taught that works do matter, because He commands them, and we respond out of faith.

Jon

 

[vwtaylorii]

I agree with this - another nodding my head in affirmation moment, as I said above to guano.
If then, by faith, we allow the Holy Spirit to work through us, are not those good works His good works, that are His merit? If grace is a free gift, and the good works we do are by grace, how do we gain merit from them?

Pardon the colors. We call the blue justification, and make a distinction between it and the red (sanctification). There is no justification without sanctification.

Justification, followed by sanctification?

Jon

I agree with you about what you said: there is not justification without sanctification. Catholic believe justification and sanctification is part of the same process. To us, justification=saved/salvation. Justification mean being rightgeous under God’s eyes. If we are not rightgeous under God’s eyes, then we will not be saved.

The reason why it is hard for the Catholic Church to teach justification by faith alone because the Bible says we are not justified by faith alone (Jm 2:24; the only time you see the phrase “faith alone”).

In the same breath, the reason why we believe works does play a role in salvation because we James says that Abraham works did justify him.

 

[Carlan]

Faith,justification, sanctification is a work in love of progress toward life everlasting.

Justification is imparted in Baptism and the soul is filled by the Holy Spirit with sanctifing grace, and the process toward holiness begins.

It has been expressed many times through out these forums.

Peace, Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

I have no problem with a lot that is said…God works in us via the Holy Spirit to change us into His image…It all is essential in our growth…They are God’s “workings”) IN us not ours…The word ‘works’ seems to be the stumbling area in it’s usage…

James gives and example right in the verses he speaks about doing them…

James 2:14 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15** If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit**?

Anyway it is apparent at the judgment seat in 1Cor. 3 that believers will be entering heaven with works that have left them a pile of ash…Which is saying to me the works weren’t so good but they still enter heaven( by setting in purgatory away from the rest in heaven for an undetermined time if you believe in that concept)…This is what I refer to “fire insurance”…Not the best way to go, but sliding in on the seat of your pants…Remember it’s Works = Rewards** or lack of them happening here…

Grace and peace to you dear saints in Christ…**

 

[djeter]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

There is something about this that causes the noggin to fold in upon itself. Recently I found Pope Benedict’s elucidation of The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith wonderfully clear, crisply expressed.

See what it does for you. You can find it here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/07/28/benedict-xvi-on-saint-paul-and-the-doctrine-of-justification/

dj

 

[Carlan]

Since some do not understand or accept the purification of the soul from the effects of sin, committed after Baptism, they do not have any where to turn, in their belief, but to hold onto the belief that our salvation cannot be lost . They say that justification is a one time event whether or not we sin in following the commandments of God.

The admonition of Paul, to “work out our salvation in fear and trembling through the grace of God working in us”, seems to be misunderstood or ignored(Phil 2:12)
Peace, Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

Since some do not understand or accept the purification of the soul from the effects of sin, committed after Baptism, they do not have any where to turn, in their belief, but to hold onto the belief that our salvation cannot be lost . They say that justification is a one time event whether or not we sin in following the commandments of God.

The admonition of Paul, to “work out our salvation in fear and trembling through the grace of God working in us”, seems to be misunderstood or ignored(Phil 2:12)
Peace, Carlan

I’m not sure who that directed to but I didn’t hear anyone here say we can’t turn and walk away from Christ…Nobody is saying we aren’t prompted by the Holy Spirit for a wrong thought , action or attitude and in need of repentance…We all should have a healthy fear of God and take our spiritual walk obeying The Holy Spirit’s working in us…It’s the Holy Spirit’s work that is part of that completing in us the work He started…He said when we do sin and repent He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness according to 1John…What I’m trying to get across is that when James 2 speaks about works…He gives the same example Jesus gave in Matthew about the hungry and needy…It’s our personal ministry to others…He then even tells some of them to depart He never KNEW them…Reminds you immediately of the Pharisees who did all these things to be seen but they were empty tombs void of any relationship to Him. I can’t imagine the Holy Spirit not convicting someone about their sin…I have been around people in the past content in their sin and hardening their heart go through some crushing experience only to be finally be broken and running back to Abba…
I know someone who hardened their heart after their child died…They turned away from God…Finally frustrated she cried out to God and experienced and wonderful deep healing from the Lord and now has a passionate relationship with the Lord…He is very long-suffering and patience to those who are struggling…

I fell from a railcar years ago and have issues fro that…Sometimes I don’t sleep well and get snappy with my beloved…I said something to her and with in seconds I felt the Holy Spirits conviction…So I quickly apologized to the Lord and her…I’m used to a closeness to the Holy Spirit and do my utmost to have/do the right thoughts, deeds, actions and attitudes…My wife and I use our devotion time in the evening to go over the day and keep our slates clean before the Lord…This helps us to sleep and daily walk in great peace…Grace and peace to you all beloved in the Lord…

Last off…I see some in 1Cor. some getting ash which is showing me their works weren’t to good, but we still see them being saved…To me I’ve experienced to much of communing with the Lord to want to just live with "fire insurance…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You said:

Lutherans do not object to works.
2. We reject and condemn as offensive and detrimental to Christian discipline the bare expression, when it is said: Good works are injurious to salvation.
From the Epitome of the Formula of Concord.

Works play a role in being obedient to Christ’s commands. As I said, I was never taught your formula. I was taught that works do matter, because He commands them, and we respond out of faith.

Jon

In the context of what I was speaking, justification, works are objected to by Protestants. Virtually all Protestants affirm the need for works in the Christian life, but they are adamant they play no role in regards to getting justified.

 

[Hiskid1973]

In the context of what I was speaking, justification, works are objected to by Protestants. Virtually all Protestants affirm the need for works in the Christian life, but they are adamant they play no role in regards to getting justified.

You pretty much hit the main breaker:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

8For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

9Not of works, that no man may glory.

Titus 3:5-7 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

5Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;

6Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Savior:

7That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting.

Romans 5:1
Douay-Rheims Bible
BEING justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

You pretty much hit the main breaker:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
8For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9Not of works, that no man may glory.

Titus 3:5-7 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
5Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost;6Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Savior: 7That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting.

Romans 5:1
Douay-Rheims Bible
BEING justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God.

The problem is what each of us means by “justification” and “works”. See the link in my sig to see why your view of Faith Alone doesn’t fit the Bible.

 

[Hiskid1973]

The problem is what each of us means by “justification” and “works”. See the link in my sig to see why your view of Faith Alone doesn’t fit the Bible.

Can you give the link Bro…My sigs are off…I KNOW we have a disconnect with the word “works” … I see works as what James and Jesus used for examples…Here I’ve been told they are things like “repentance”, “believing” and the like…

 

[Carlan]

Can you give the link Bro…My sigs are off…I KNOW we have a disconnect with the word “works” … I see works as what James and Jesus used for examples…Here I’ve been told they are things like “repentance”, “believing” and the like…

I am sorry,I do get much frustrated in these threads at times. Simply, I must say I am not much of a debater. I think the problem with my dialogue with our separated brethren is semantics and interpretation.There is so much refusal to give over and to acknowledge our mistakes and mis understandings.There also seems to be reluctance to confirm each other when we can agree, it seems to me that people think that if they do acknowledge one truth it will take something away from all the truth we feel in our gut. So many of us operate with closed minds.
peace, Carlan