Faith alone or not?

[Hiskid1973]

I am sorry,I do get much frustrated in these threads at times. Simply, I must say I am not much of a debater. I think the problem with my dialogue with our separated brethren is semantics and interpretation.There is so much refusal to give over and to acknowledge our mistakes and mis-understandings.There also seems to be reluctance to confirm each other when we can agree, it seems to me that people think that if they do acknowledge one truth it will take something away from all the truth we feel in our gut. So many of us operate with closed minds.
peace, Carlan

Hey Sis…Try not to get frustrated…I said at least one in this thread we are agreement with a lot of things and talk past each other…We are all at different stages in our walk and different personality types…If you knew my wife and I you would probably enjoy fellowship with us…We are both gentle caring types and encouragers…I usually always try post in an esteeming and and not to appear like a know it all or prideful…I had two catholic neighbors who were very nice…One even prayed with me out in the street for another neighbor who needs the Lord…Her son just died and she gladly accepted out desire to pray…It just they seemed not to want to eagerly answer questions about their faith or the bible…I came here to learn more…I had a pretty radical conversion experience and got into the scriptures faithfully over many years…All our minds get closed at one time or another…I shared in a thread about tongues in apologetic’s of an experience I had.
I pretty much was born anew and was right in the charismatic circles…I had a bad experience of someone trying to help me to rest in the spirit as charismatic catholic say…We’ll after that I was a little leery about people laying their hands on me…I struggled with porn for many years and figured I would go this this deliverance preacher my church was having…The message seemed to be focused on me and I pretty much ran to get up there…He has the anointing oil ready to put on my head and before he could touch me the power of the Holy Spirits touch felt like electricity
flow through me and I was on the floor…It was like being wrapped in a cocoon of love…I heard his prayer off in the distance but I was just still, unable to move…I layed there and it eventually subsided and I got up and felt like I floated home…I was gloriously delivered from porn…I also had a powerful experience of God’s presence during my conversion experience that lasted for over an hour…Sorry about the ramble, I had so many experiences it’s hard to stop…One day I won’t be separated from you and we can fellowship around the Lord…Grace and peace to you dear one beloved in Christ…Kim

 

[JonNC]

In the context of what I was speaking, justification, works are objected to by Protestants. Virtually all Protestants affirm the need for works in the Christian life, but they are adamant they play no role in regards to getting justified.

On this you are correct. We view justification as monergistic. I believe that Catholics would say the same about initial justification.

Jon

 

[thenobes]

Here’s the thing as were just going to go in circles…If you feel believing is a work and
repenting is a work nothing I say will change your mind

Holding to faith is a work of God. But it is the assent to hold that faith that keeps our faith alive, not the actions themselves.

Per Phillip. 2, God works in us both to will and to do. Assenting with our will to that work is just opening ourselves to God’s working within us, changing us into images of Christ through obedience.

…I just know some at the judgment seat will end up with a lot of flesh work that will turn to ash, they still are saved…Jesus told a group feed, clothes ect…These I see as good works…My neighbor isn’t walking with Christ and couldn’t mow his lawn…I told him to get the parts and I’l fix both mowers…They make probably make 80 grand together and didn’t offer me a penny for all the labor…but they came to me telling me about thier dad dying and I was able to encourage them back to thier faith a litte and talk about thier dad making his peace with God…That’s what I call a good work…Our church has a food bank and feeding program…We can bring groceries for the food bank and serve them and hand out groceries when they go…That is what I label as a good work…That what stores up treasures in heaven…Works of flesh wll produce ash…I’m sure most of us will have some ash mixed in with the jewels…peace to you…

I agree. Work that begins with assent to the desires of the flesh is flesh work. Work that begins with assent to God’s Will made known to us by the Holy Spirit are good (spiritual) works.

But again, my point is that the changing of ourselves to images of Christ is necessary. Thus our assent to God’s will for us to work is necessary.

The work itself will go to where God desires it to go, and cannot be said to be ours. However, we are changed by assenting to the work, and this change is our intrinsically gained merit, merit being simply worthiness to receive a reward.

peace
steve

 

[Hiskid1973]

Holding to faith is a work of God. But it is the assent to hold that faith that keeps our faith alive, not the actions themselves.

Per Phillip. 2, God works in us both to will and to do. Assenting with our will to that work is just opening ourselves to God’s working within us, changing us into images of Christ through obedience.

I agree. Work that begins with assent to the desires of the flesh is flesh work. Work that begins with assent to God’s Will made known to us by the Holy Spirit are good (spiritual) works.

But again, my point is that the changing of ourselves to images of Christ is necessary. Thus our assent to God’s will for us to work is necessary.

The work itself will go to where God desires it to go, and cannot be said to be ours. However, we are changed by assenting to the work, and this change is our intrinsically gained merit, merit being simply worthiness to receive a reward.

peace
steve

Bro. Steve I agree…The more flesh dies the more responsive we are to the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives…Yes the good works are what turns into rewards as in 1Cor. 3…It just seems here some are saying good works = getting to heaven rather than good works = rewards ie gold,silver, precious stones…

Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it,(judgment day) because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s** work shall be burned**, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.( I call this" fire insurance" not a good way to get to heaven by the seat of your pants)

 

[Carlan]

On this you are correct. We view justification as monergistic. I believe that Catholics would say the same about initial justification.

Jon

I ran across the following quotes from a teaching on the three justifications of Abraham by James Akins.

Luther himself wrote, "For we understand that a man who is justified is not already righteous, but moving toward righteousness."6

and

"Our justification is not yet complete . . . . It is still under construction. It shall, however, be completed in the resurrection of the dead."7

Peace, Carlan

 

[steve_b]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

I haven’t read all the posts. If this has been said already then disregard.

There are

• “works” i,e, works of Mosaic law. 613 of them
• “good works”

The issue usually involves combining the word “alone” with either faith or good works.
But there is also “works” i.e. “works of Mosaic law”

We are saved apart from “works of law” but not apart from “good works”

Re: James 2

• Faith is NOT alone.
• good works. aren’t alone either.
• and It’s not faith or good works as if there is an option
• It’s faith & good works together

Re: Paul Eph 2:8-10 (many leave out v 10 and lose important context.)

8* For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Paul’s sequence is

Saved by

• grace
• through faith
• and good works

All 3 are necessary. None is optional.

Re: good works, since God prepared good works in advance, and created us to do them, they are essential for us to do. They are not meaningless to our salvation, they are not optional.

If someone wants to take issue with that, ask them what will happen if they ignore doing good works. Then point them to Mt 25:31… (sheep and goats)

 

[Hiskid1973]

Only glitch there Steve…The goats were told to depart for He never KNEW them…It was the relationship not the “works” that kept them out of His presence…It is Jeus example of what good works are …They are OUR works to do, NOT God’s workings in us…Remember the 1 Cor. 3 example that works are being burned and people are suffering loss, BUT they are STILL saved…Even tho they lacked the good works and they turned to ash…

 

[JustaServant]

On Catholic Answers Live today, John Martinogni struggled to get the message to some callers that the Catholic Church doesn’t believe we are saved by works. He said that the reason works are important is because NOT doing them could cause us to lose our salvation (ie, through mortal sin). He didn’t phrase it like that, but that’s what he meant.

I see a lot of people explain it like that.

But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

How about a garden? You can read about the seasons and planting and reaping and such. You can watch someone else doing all of those things and assist with them. But until you actually put your hands in the soil and participate in the bringing about of new life for new plants and flowers, you don’t realize how much it can change you… give you a kind of peace and sense of purpose.
Similarly, there’s an aspect of life that really can’t be communicated except in the living of it

 

[Carlan]

How about a garden? You can read about the seasons and planting and reaping and such. You can watch someone else doing all of those things and assist with them. But until you actually put your hands in the soil and participate in the bringing about of new life for new plants and flowers, you don’t realize how much it can change you… give you a kind of peace and sense of purpose.
Similarly, there’s an aspect of life that really can’t be communicated except in the living of it

oh yes, I love it! Did you know that in America gardening is the favourite hobby and I bet it is so the world over! Peace Carlan.

 

[Hiskid1973]

oh yes, I love it! Did you know that in America gardening is the favourite hobby and I bet it is so the world over! Peace Carlan.

We had much of our own produce frozen/canned last well into spring…We go organic as much as possible…We are in the process of canning peaches right…I would love to set up some kind of grow light to get at least lettuce, grape tomatoes and herbs over the winter…I think as rougher days come more people with have to return to doing more gardening, canning, freezing ect…

 

[Carlan]

Hey Sis…Try not to get frustrated…I said at least one in this thread we are agreement with a lot of things and talk past each other…We are all at different stages in our walk and different personality types…If you knew my wife and I you would probably enjoy fellowship with us…We are both gentle caring types and encouragers…I usually always try post in an esteeming and and not to appear like a know it all or prideful…I had two catholic neighbors who were very nice…One even prayed with me out in the street for another neighbor who needs the Lord…Her son just died and she gladly accepted out desire to pray…It just they seemed not to want to eagerly answer questions about their faith or the bible…I came here to learn more…I had a pretty radical conversion experience and got into the scriptures faithfully over many years…All our minds get closed at one time or another…I shared in a thread about tongues in apologetic’s of an experience I had.
I pretty much was born anew and was right in the charismatic circles…I had a bad experience of someone trying to help me to rest in the spirit as charismatic catholic say…We’ll after that I was a little leery about people laying their hands on me…I struggled with porn for many years and figured I would go this this deliverance preacher my church was having…The message seemed to be focused on me and I pretty much ran to get up there…He has the anointing oil ready to put on my head and before he could touch me the power of the Holy Spirits touch felt like electricity
flow through me and I was on the floor…It was like being wrapped in a cocoon of love…I heard his prayer off in the distance but I was just still, unable to move…I layed there and it eventually subsided and I got up and felt like I floated home…I was gloriously delivered from porn…I also had a powerful experience of God’s presence during my conversion experience that lasted for over an hour…Sorry about the ramble, I had so many experiences it’s hard to stop…One day I won’t be separated from you and we can fellowship around the Lord…Grace and peace to you dear one beloved in Christ…Kim

Kim , you had a most powerfully dramatic conversion. It is very good for us to hear how God uses his love for us in such powerful ways. He know what it takes for all of us to fall prostrate before him.
Probably, for many, it has also taken on the more gentle boot in the daily turning away from sin… the practice of the doctrine of the cross. Matt 16:24…
God, continue to bless us and bring us to the foot of your Cross!
Peace, Carlan

 

[Third_Day]

=Hiskid1973;6907142]I have no problem with a lot that is said…God works in us via the Holy Spirit to change us into His image…It all is essential in our growth…They are God’s “workings”) IN us not ours…The word ‘works’ seems to be the stumbling area in it’s usage…

Your eyes have been blinded and you cannot see that confession and repentance are works of grace and they are necessary for salvation. Unrepented adultery will send you to hell. Therefore confession and repentance are necessary works **of grace **along with the gift of faith which is not our own doing but a gift from God. Confession and repentance are not done by our own power but are works of grace and we cannot boast and take credit for them.

James gives and example right in the verses he speaks about doing them…

Yes those are also works of grace just like confessing and repenting .

Anyway it is apparent at the judgment seat in 1Cor. 3 that believers will be entering heaven with works that have left them a pile of ash…

Here’s your other problem. 1 Cor.3 is about our purification before we can enter heaven. You ignore the verse that says the man will suffer… Our sinful works, wood, hay and stubble will be burned off of our soul. These are venial, non-deadly, sins that must be purged so that we can be saved but only “as through fire”. THe** man **suffers as through fire not just the burning of works.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Kim , you had a most powerfully dramatic conversion. It is very good for us to hear how God uses his love for us in such powerful ways. He know what it takes for all of us to fall prostrate before him.
Probably, for many, it has also taken on the more gentle boot in the daily turning away from sin… the practice of the doctrine of the cross. Matt 16:24…
God, continue to bless us and bring us to the foot of your Cross!
Peace, Carlan

Hey Sis…Some need a good jump start…I was into “Chariots of the gods” where we were seeded by an alien race…Now I believe anything with “aliens” operates through the demonic…Great peace to you dearest one in Christ…I can only imagine future days where it is “revealed” aliens contacted us…How many would be duped and drawn away.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Your eyes have been blinded and you cannot see that confession and repentance are works of grace and they are necessary for salvation. Unrepented adultery will send you to hell. Therefore confession and repentance are necessary works **of grace **along with the gift of faith which is not our own doing but a gift from God. Confession and repentance are not done by our own power but are works of grace and we cannot boast and take credit for them.

Yes those are also works of grace just like confessing and repenting .

Here’s your other problem. 1 Cor.3 is about our purification before we can enter heaven. You ignore the verse that says the man will suffer… Our sinful works, wood, hay and stubble will be burned off of our soul. These are venial, non-deadly, sins that must be purged so that we can be saved but only “as through fire”. THe** man **suffers as through fire not just the burning of works.

I see God’s working in me changing me into His image via the Holy Spirit’s work…I see what James and Jesus call works…I see our “work” being burned…I see people getting to heaven even though they just have ash…There is nothing said in those verses about sin, it’s about our works being burned…I see works as beneficial but not salvic ie no work, no chance at heaven…He’s still taking those with ash into His kingdom even though you say they will spend time in your purgatory…I don’t recommend just having “fire insurance”… Hey if I’m blinded God is still doing a work in me and producing good fruit…Ask my wife or pastor…Peace to you beloved in Christ…

BTW…I know one deadly sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit.I see some will suffer, doesn’t sound pleasant…But they still will enter heaven ie they will be saved…Hey BTW, I like Third Day…I didn’t thing you guys liked non Catholic music…

 

[Carlan]

Your eyes have been blinded and you cannot see that confession and repentance are works of grace and they are necessary for salvation. Unrepented adultery will send you to hell. Therefore confession and repentance are necessary works **of grace **along with the gift of faith which is not our own doing but a gift from God. Confession and repentance are not done by our own power but are works of grace and we cannot boast and take credit for them.

Yes those are also works of grace just like confessing and repenting .

Here’s your other problem. 1 Cor.3 is about our purification before we can enter heaven. You ignore the verse that says the man will suffer… Our sinful works, wood, hay and stubble will be burned off of our soul. These are venial, non-deadly, sins that must be purged so that we can be saved but only “as through fire”. THe** man **suffers as through fire not just the burning of works.

ThirdDay, I do appreciate your no frills, straightforward way of Apologetics, what you are teaching is the truth, pointing out the misinterpretation of the Scripture. which the Church handed down to us, The work of the Holy Spirit though the guidance and authority of the magisterium.:thumbsupeace to us all, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

IHe’s still taking those with ash into His kingdom even though you say they will spend time in your purgatory…I don’t recommend just having “fire insurance”… Hey if I’m blinded God is still doing a work in me and producing good fruit…Ask my wife or pastor…Peace to you beloved in Christ…

…

Was it St Augustine who said," you will believe it when you get there",Kim?

I keep telling myself , “Old girl, pride will get you nowhere, Lord pick me up and set me straight” Peace Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

Third Day …Are you reading what I write…Repentance confession are essential to our spiritual walk and maturity…They are the Holy Spirit’s working in us …No one denies that…I’m talking about the “works” that flow from us from God’s working in us…James said they are part of our maturing process…He even GIVES and example of one of the works right after he says that…He says about feeding someone hungry AS an example…Jesus mentions the same one and others…Why do you argue against that…That’s part of our walk in ministry to those around us…
Notice the judgment isn’t about if we are saved or not it’s about judging the works we should have been producing…It won’t be a pleasant time for some but they are still saved…Hey, I’m done here…If you don’t understand what I say, we’ll I can’t say it any different…The scriptures are there to read…

 

[steve_b]

Only glitch there Steve…The goats were told to depart for He never KNEW them…It was the relationship not the “works” that kept them out of His presence…

Go back and read Mt 25:31… They were seperated on the basis of what they did or didn’t do.
H:

It is Jeus example of what good works are …They are OUR works to do, NOT God’s workings in us…

Ever hear the phrase, It’s not me, but God working in me for His good purposes? [Phil 2:13 paraphrased] When He crowns good works, He crowns His own works He prepared in advance for us to do. [Eph 2:8-10]
H:

Remember the 1 Cor. 3 example that works are being burned and people are suffering loss, BUT they are STILL saved…Even tho they lacked the good works and they turned to ash…

Re: [1 Cor 3:13…]

That is not what is going on there. Those spoken of there, are already saved. The “Day” spoken of, is the day one is judged. Between death and heaven, the soul is judged and goes through purification. The good works that are really good, remain, the rest is burned away.

This is only for a soul who is saved. Those who are NOT saved, don’t go through this process of purification. They go straight to hell.

 

[Carlan]

Third Day …Are you reading what I write…Repentance confession are essential to our spiritual walk and maturity…They are the Holy Spirit’s working in us …No one denies that…I’m talking about the “works” that flow from us from God’s working in us…James said they are part of our maturing process…He even GIVES and example of one of the works right after he says that…He says about feeding someone hungry AS an example…Jesus mentions the same one and others…Why do you argue against that…That’s part of our walk in ministry to those around us…
*Notice the judgment isn’t about if we are saved or not it’s about judging the works we should have been producing…It won’t be a pleasant time for some but they are still saved…*Hey, I’m done here…If you don’t understand what I say, we’ll I can’t say it any different…The scriptures are there to read…

Are you say ing to us that ‘the unpleasant time will be spent in heaven’? I don’t believe that! The beatitudes tell us, "only the pure in heart will see the face of God.
Can you not see that the doctrine of Purgatory(a state where we are purified completely of the effects of sin) makes absolute sense, if that necessary pureness isn’t completed before we die, Kim? It is about the interpretation you have of that particular 1Cor scripture.Who is your authority? Ours is the teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium.Peace, Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

Are you say ing to us that ‘the un alpleasant time will be spent in heaven’? I don’t believe that! The beatitudes tell us, "only the pure in heart will see the face of God.
Can you not see that the doctrine of Purgatory(a state where we are purified completely of the effects of sin) makes absolute sense, if that necessary pureness isn’t completed before we die, Kim? It is about the interpretation you have of that particular 1Cor scripture.Who is your authority? Ours is the teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium.Peace, Carlan

Hey Sis…God bless you…I see something happening at judgment but purgatory as a “holding area” somewhere with people in there lengths of time plus people praying to shorten their stay…Guess will find out for sure on the other side…Me, I want to be passionate in my faith in Christ…

I don’t see how you can read that and not know what’s going on
It says works burned, some receiving rewards and others not.
People still going to heaven even tho their works produced ash…

What does your infallible magesterium say about that…Curious
what the Orthodox say about it also…Be back, I taking an online trip to an Orthodox forum