Faith alone or not?

[Carlan]

You want to know how I understand it,/?
After we all come to the end of this life, we will all be together, the Apostolic Christians and our separated brothers in a state prior to heaven, those of us who haven’t completed the clean up process, that is, before we leave. In that state God will complete in us the holiness process and get all of our thinking in line with him . We will then all be ready for the unity Christ has always desired of his flock.
One in unity with the Trinity and with his Angels and his Saints all rejoicing in the joy of heaven forever. Alleluia, Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

You want to know how I understand it,/?
After we all come to the end of this life, we will all be together, the Apostolic Christians and our separated brothers in a state prior to heaven, those of us who haven’t completed the clean up process, that is, before we leave. In that state God will complete in us the holiness process and get all of our thinking in line with him . We will then all be ready for the unity Christ has always desired of his flock.
One in unity with the Trinity and with his Angels and his Saints all rejoicing in the joy of heaven forever. Alleluia, Carlan

The older I get the more I look fwd to my heavenly rest…This world holds nothing I want…
Back from my web journey.This is from an Orthodox bible commentary site…Pretty much the same a s I see it:

“St. Paul further makes his point by using the metaphor of a building: each Christian is God’s building (3:9). St. Paul himself, an apostle, is a master builder (3:10), and lays the foundation that is Jesus Christ (3:11). Anyone who builds on this holy foundation, whatever the materials used - gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw - will have that building tested by God, and will be either rewarded or not (even though the builder will be painfully saved) (3:12-15). This is a complicated metaphor: Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Christian life, and a Christian teacher simply builds up individual Christians upon this foundation. Fr. Lawrence Farley explains that there are two types of materials from which Christians are built: “The gold, silver, and precious stones” and “the wood, hay, and straw. On the Day of Judgement - which St. Paul describes as a fire - the material from which the individual Christian was built will then be revealed. Christians who built with unity and love will be rewarded, while those who built with disunity will suffer greatly (although ultimately being saved).

 

[Carlan]

The older I get the more I look fwd to my heavenly rest…This world holds nothing I want…
Back from my web journey.This is from an Orthodox bible commentary site…Pretty much the same a s I see it:

“St. Paul further makes his point by using the metaphor of a building: each Christian is God’s building (3:9). St. Paul himself, an apostle, is a master builder (3:10), and lays the foundation that is Jesus Christ (3:11). Anyone who builds on this holy foundation, whatever the materials used - gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw - will have that building tested by God, and will be either rewarded or not (even though the builder will be painfully saved) (3:12-15). This is a complicated metaphor: Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Christian life, and a Christian teacher simply builds up individual Christians upon this foundation. Fr. Lawrence Farley explains that there are two types of materials from which Christians are built: “The gold, silver, and precious stones” and “the wood, hay, and straw. On the Day of Judgment - which St. Paul describes as a fire - the material from which the individual Christian was built will then be revealed. Christians who built with unity and love will be rewarded, while those who built with disunity will suffer greatly (although ultimately being saved).

Soooo, even tho’ you don’t call it the word,(Purgatory) you seem to be thinking it is an acceptable doctrine now. You are saying you do believe in a purifying state for those who need it , before going onto their ultimate reward…
Kim, I am somewhat confusedabout what you are now saying about our Orthodox brothers, you are accepting that teaching, and yet all that has been said so far about it in this thread, which is basically the same you try to refute.
Am I detecting a somewhat anti catholic bias. a somewhat prejudice coming from you?
Surely not , Peace, Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

Soooo, even tho’ you don’t call it the word,(Purgatory) you seem to be thinking it is an acceptable doctrine now. You are saying you do believe in a purifying state for those who need it , before going onto their ultimate reward…
Kim, I am somewhat confusedabout what you are now saying about our Orthodox brothers, you are accepting that teaching, and yet all that has been said so far about it in this thread, which is basically the same you try to refute.
Am I detecting a somewhat anti catholic bias. a somewhat prejudice coming from you?
Surely not , Peace, Carlan

I’m not really making a “doctine”…I never denied those with ashes experiencing something on judgment day…I don’t know if their being purified…There still getting saved even lacking works …I’m saying their work is lacking and they experience something…I just don’t agree with your doctrine that they go off from the rest to some holding area for a period of time and can be prayed for to get out early…It seems more likely that the judgment will be over and done in one fell swoop…We will all only know for sure on that day…As for the Orthodox, I got wondering what they say and the commentary I read seems to be pretty much like the scriptures…I don’t believe they have an equivalent to purgatory…I don’t have any prejudice or anti catholic bias that I know of…It just made me wonder what they thought…

 

[Carlan]

I’m not really making a “doctine”…I never denied those with ashes experiencing something on judgment day…I don’t know if their being purified…There still getting saved even lacking works …I’m saying their work is lacking and they experience something…I just don’t agree with your doctrine that they go off from the rest to some holding area for a period of time and can be prayed for to get out early…It seems more likely that the judgment will be over and done in one fell swoop…We will all only know for sure on that day…As for the Orthodox, I got wondering what they say and the commentary I read seems to be pretty much like the scriptures…I don’t believe they have an equivalent to purgatory…I don’t have any prejudice or anti catholic bias that I know of…It just made me wonder what they thought…

May I just put it as simply as I can , I believe all Christians, Cath and Prot both,must go through the purification process whether it is here in the now, or if the soul is not completely purified before death then it is completed before we are ready to go on to be with the Father forever.
Now how God does it, we will not know until we experience it,it may be a matter of the blinking of the eye lids or it may take until the second coming. that will be God’s call for
each of us,
Concerning the going off from the rest I’m not sure what you mean by that, all who will be in need of more purification will be in the same state together so to speak. Those already perfected will already be on their way to heaven,
Concerning the praying to getting them off early,in that sense it isn’t what the prayer is all about ,when I pray for the dead I ask God to have mercy on them and to continue to draw them evermore closer to him and take them soon into his presence.
If you are unable to believe the Churches doctrine, no matter which area of faith is being discussed, you are free to make your point and move on, this forum is not about proselytizing either way. Hopefully we are all here to understand the teachings of Christ’s Church as handed down through the ages beginning with the first Apostles.

That’s it in a nutshell,Kim. you either believe it and accept it or you don’t. I do. Fair enough?God bless you, and Peace of Christ, Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

That’s it in a nutshell,Kim. you either believe it and accept it or you don’t. I do. Fair enough?God bless you, and Peace of Christ, Carlan

Thank you…And may the Lord bless you too!

 

[Philthy]

I’m not really making a “doctine”…I never denied those with ashes experiencing something on judgment day…I don’t know if their being purified…There still getting saved even lacking works …

If you really, truly wish to make progress in understanding “Faith alone or Not?” you will separate the discussion of “being saved” from the discussion of “going to Heaven”. They are different events, though one is a subset of the other, and the standards for each are different. Compare your favorite verses by Paul regarding being “saved” and contrast them with his comments regarding “inheriting the kingdom of God” ( 1Cor6:9-10; Eph 5:5; Gal 5:20)

I’m saying their work is lacking and they experience something…

This is not what I would call a very solid foundation for believing anything and its not too clear in expressing what it is you believe.

I just don’t agree with your doctrine that they go off from the rest to some holding area for a period of time and can be prayed for to get out early…It seems more likely that the judgment will be over and done in one fell swoop…

The line in the sand is that there is a form of purification at the completion of our lives or there is not. Purgatory is better thought of as a process rather than a place, and since it is part of the eternal order there is no time there as we understand it.

We will all only know for sure on that day…

This could be said about every belief we hold.

As for the Orthodox, I got wondering what they say and the commentary I read seems to be pretty much like the scriptures…I don’t believe they have an equivalent to purgatory…I don’t have any prejudice or anti catholic bias that I know of…It just made me wonder what they thought…

The Orthodox and Catholic beliefs are very similar - dont forget that they shared more than a thousand years united - twice as long as any Protestant communities.

Summary:

• Focus on going to Heaven - you’re already “saved”, arent you? What does Scripture say about going to Heaven (ie inheriting the Kingdom of God)?
• Purgatory is a process, not a place and it is logical and scriptural and based entirely upon the merits of Christ.

Blessings!

 

[Third_Day]

=Hiskid1973;6911177]Third Day …Are you reading what I write…Repentance confession **are essential **to our spiritual walk and maturity…They are the Holy Spirit’s working in us …No one denies that…

Where we differ is that you believe you only have to confess and repent one time when you first accept Christ.

I’m talking about the “works” that flow from us from God’s working in us…James said they are part of our maturing process…He even GIVES and example of one of the works right after he says that…He says about feeding someone hungry AS an example…Jesus mentions the same one and others…Why do you argue against that…That’s part of our walk in ministry to those around us…

Kim, I don’t argue against that. But works of grace involve more than feeding the poor. Abraham was justified when he obeyed God. He didn’t feed or cloth anyone. He was justified by the work of obedience

Notice the judgment isn’t about if we are saved or not it’s about judging the works we should have been producing

…Paul divides works into two categories, gold silver and precious stones. Those are the good works that we will be rewarded for. The second category is wood, hay and stubble. Those works are burned up. Those are our sinful works that are not serious enough to send us to hell but need to be purged from our soul so that we can be sanctified and enter into heaven
I asked you several times and you refuse to answer. The text says the man will suffer… Why does the man suffer if this is just about rewards in heaven. Is there suffering in heaven? Then it says the man **will be saved **as through fire. How do you expalin those verses refering to heaven?
.

**It won’t be a pleasant time **for some but they are still saved…

What does this mean"'it won’t be a plesant time?" I think you believe in a place of purgation but you can’t make yourself admit it simply because it is a Catholic teaching.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Where we differ is that you believe you only have to confess and repent one time when you first accept Christ.
Yes He says behold I stand at the door and knock…I did and had a powerful conversion experience…I’m very sensitive to the Holy Spirits working and have no problem asking forgiveness when brought under conviction…I know He is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness according to 1 John. It has been working wonderfully for the last almost 40 years…

Kim, I don’t argue against that. But works of grace involve more than feeding the poor. Abraham was justified when he obeyed God. He didn’t feed or cloth anyone. He was justified by the work of obedience. Remember Abraham was justified by faith( alone ;^) as many others under the old covenant…I understand God’s workings of grace in my life via the Holy Spirit…I just see for OUR good works that He desires us to do as the same example James and Jesus gives ie the hungry , poor ect

…Paul divides works into two categories, gold silver and precious stones. Those are the good works that we will be rewarded for. The second category is wood, hay and stubble. Those works are burned up. Those are our sinful works that are not serious enough to send us to hell but need to be purged from our soul so that we can be sanctified and enter into heaven We don’t really “know exactly what that ash represents you say I assume venial sin vrs mortal…I know ONE mortal ie. sin against the Holy Spirit
I asked you several times and you refuse to answer. The text says the man will suffer… Why does the man suffer if this is just about rewards in heaven. Is there suffering in heaven? Then it says the man **will be saved **as through fire. How do you expalin those verses refering to heaven?
. What does this mean”'it won’t be a plesant time?" I think you believe in a place of purgation but you can’t make yourself admit it simply because it is a Catholic teaching.

We trials on earth that contain much suffering but yeild the fruit of righteousness after wards when we pass through them…The whole jist here is the “necessity of works” …I don’t believe lacking “good works” will keep you out of heaven…What’s more scary to me is living a luke warm faith…Going to church, saying/doing the right stuff and living far from God the rest of the week…We have those around us all. OK, here’s the verse…15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
OK picture this…We are standing before the Lord and He runs are live byie works /deeds we said acted upon.Like being in a hot seat…I think all of us will regret missed opportunities or immature acts…Think of our thoughts and attitudes we have that are not Christ like…I imagine our feelings will still be in tact…I can imagine some getting saved and squandering away opportunities to share His love with those around them…Can you imagine that experience to be the worst trial you ever had, the utter humiliation…It says so as by fire…We know the “works” burned because of the ash…I can imagine the whole experience very unsettling compared to a “well done good and faithful servant”. It appears like it’s going to be judgment and then heaven…This brings up the whole absent from the body, present with the Lord…We know the flesh body sees the grave but what about our soul/spirit…Are all believers passed on in His presence or are some inside some holding area never to be released til judgment…I can see separation from those believing vrs those who rejected Christ but not between mature and immature believers…Like I said before I can see some having an unpleasant judgment but I don’t see in the scriptures a doctrine where some are culled out and separated and have prayers for them to be released early…I know some bring the debtors prison in with this but if you read every thing around it you see what is try to be said… Anyway we just go round and round…Like Carlan said we close off because of what we are taught…We have dialog because we are seeing through the glass darkly . One day we will see His as He is and we shall be like Him…Issues where there from day one of not seeing eye to eye…But our common salvation from a converted heart being bound/sealed by the Holy Spirit unites us all…Grace and peace to you dear one in Christ…K

 

[Third_Day]

Kim, before I respond to all that you have written, where in scripture does it say that Abraham was justified by faith “alone” as you claim?

 

[Hiskid1973]

Kim, before I respond to all that you have written, where in scripture does it say that Abraham was justified by faith “alone” as you claim?

I see you missed that smilie after the alone…I put that there for a purpose…

 

[Philthy]

We trials on earth that contain much suffering but yeild the fruit of righteousness after wards when we pass through them…

It is not merely the passing through of trials, but how we pass through them. If you are faced with the trial of committing adultery and you pass through the trial by committing adultery that will not bear any fruit.

The whole jist here is the “necessity of works” …I don’t believe lacking “good works” will keep you out of heaven…

But that goes directly against what Scripture speaks of on the matter.
1Cor 6: How can any one of you with a case against another dare to bring it to the unjust for judgment instead of to the holy ones?..But … brother goes to court against brother, and that before unbelievers…you inflict injustice and cheat, and this to brothers. Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?
**Matt 7 **A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
**1Peter 1:17 **Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning.
The judgment spoken of is after we have completed our “sojourning”(our earthly life), and is the same judgment spoken of by Christ in Matt 25 where he separates the goats and sheeps according to their works…
“Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink…”
Eternal fire is a reference to Hell, those who fed, sheltered, etc go to …Heaven
James 2:14,17 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?..So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

What’s more scary to me is living a luke warm faith…Going to church, saying/doing the right stuff and living far from God the rest of the week…We have those around us all.

I hate to break this to you, but there’s no difference between a “lukewarm faith” and a faith that is “lacking good works”. They are one and the same…what did you think lukewarm faith was???
OK, here’s the verse…15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It appears like it’s going to be judgment and then heaven…

Correct! A judgment of how well you loved, as determined and evidenced by your works done in faith - the very same ones that God prepared ahead of time. (cf Eph 2:10) Its really not that complicated…we must use the gift of grace to persevere in faith, hope and love, avoiding the many forms of idolatry(ie greed) that Paul identifies.

Blessings!

 

[Hiskid1973]

Couple of points…Luke warm…Show up in church say/do right thing lives far from God in the world…Someone living on milk not very mature not wil not be producing many good works…I see them way different than some one living a luke warm faith.Now we all agree we are at different maturities and levels of obedience…We are a work in progress, none totally/absolutely obedient…not everyone
producing only good works every day…We do our best, we mess up repent.

Some seem to focus on sins vrs what James gives a s works…
Adultery seems to pop up…Sin is sin it all needs repentance or it builds a wall. Lying/getting drunk, adultery all the same …As for sins…One sin is unforgivable is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit…You won’t even have to worry about works being burned for rewards or ash and getting into heaven a place you would reject/deny…

Let me ask this, say we have a priest/pastor following the Lord gets caught in a snare and has an affair with a councilee. Driving home from the affair he is killed in a wreck.
Where do you think he goes…

You bring up Lord Lord…He say depart I never KNEW you…He didn’t say depart because you didn’t do the works.

We see people getting to heaven having ash … So those that didn’t do so well. in the works dept will still be saved…

Personally I don’t think any of us will be ashless…

It is not merely the passing through of trials, but how we pass through them. If you are faced with the trial of committing adultery and you pass through the trial by committing adultery that will not bear any fruit…

I should have been more specific…We go through trials in our faith of what is dealt us . We can handle well and bear fruit compared to going through a trial from bad choices…Although that trial can yeild fruit of a changed heart and a maturer walk…
Thank God He is faithful and just when we repent and cleanses us from all righteousness.

As for bearing fruit their is a lot of immature fruit out there…

I still see a disconnect between what is sin and lacking good works from immaturity.

 

[Third_Day]

I see you missed that smilie after the alone…I put that there for a purpose…

Cute. How about this. “Was not Abraham our Father** justified **by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James 2:21

 

[Hiskid1973]

Cute. How about this. “Was not Abraham our Father** justified **by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James 2:21

I guess you could label it a work…I label it faith and obedience…Like Abraham and David they understood there was something beyond the law…To obey was better than sacrifice…We just keep going round and round…Arguing over points trying to one up each other…The words "work,(s) seems to be a disconnect…I feel the works are what James and Jesus gave as an example…And y’all attach the name of works to other things…Then sins get brought in…Even at the time the “works” are being judged by the people going to heaven, the mortal sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit isn’t an issue…Look, like I sad before at some point our mortal puts on immortality if you want to call that moment purgatory then that’s fine with me…But it will happen to all, not will skip that part…I imagine we all will be shamed
some more so than others…Some painfully like utter humiliation at what could have been, like “as through fire” not the literal fire that burned the works to ash or produced gold…I don’t think it will be pleasant. but momentary…I went through some painful trials and saw how the refining fire matured me after the process…It wasn’t fun but I experienced the end result and seen the good results in me…

Like I said before works are beneficial not salvic…God doesn’t operate on some sliding scale with some making it and others not…Wait, too much ash, he can’t get in…It’s rewards vrs ash…Faith in Christ gets us there…Behold I stand at the door and knock…I think things were getting out of order and reformers brought it up…
Look, I’m not going to respond to any more questions…You guys mind is settled and mine its too…I know you operate that as an ancient church you have all the answers, but just because something has been supposedly always done doesn’t make it right…Same with ecf’s they have good things but you can find them saying one thing and saying something different another place …Catholic and Orthodox even use the same ecf’s arguments with each other…I know what works for me and am still a work in progress…I came a long way over the almost 40 yrs of walking with Christ…I’ve had some pretty incredible experiences over the years with God working in me…Grace and peace to you…I’m off to other interesting threads…I always encourage others to get deep into their relationship with Christ. To have a passionate walk with Him…Get into the word, that’s what the Holy Spirit uses to change us into His image…To be honest…I live in an Italian-Catholic area and had many catholic neighbors and co-workers…The most godly person I know is a non catholic…To me it’s not about if your catholic, protestant or orthodox, it’s about Jesus and out own desire to get as close to Him as we can… Grace and peace…K…See ya in another thread

 

[Third_Day]

=Hiskid1973;6918791]I guess you could label it a work…I label it faith and obedience

…Obedience is a work of grace. Kim if obedience is not a work of grace what is it?

The words "work,(s) seems to be a disconnect…I feel the works are what James and Jesus gave as an example…And y’all attach the name of works to other things

…ANything we do by God’s grace is a work. Abraham was justified when he brought Isaac to be sacrificed. That has nothing to do with feeding the poor.

Then sins get brought in…Even at the time the “works” are being judged by the people going to heaven

, Sin is something we do (a work) against God’s grace.

Some painfully like utter humiliation at what could have been, like “as through fire” not the literal fire that burned the works to ash or produced gold…I don’t think it will be pleasant. but momentary…

Some will be in purgatory till the end of time. Saints have had visions of purgatory and it will not be pleasant. This is why Catholics pray for the dead and offer up suffering for them so that they may be released. Protestants in purgatory have no one praying for them

Faith in Christ gets us there…

Faith but not faith alone

 

[Carlan]

Golly Gee! you are going around in circles unable to bow to reason for some reason:shrug:
Kim,there are good works which we do out of obedience and love for God, with the help of his precious grace.
There are bad works we do by our own commission and omission by the temptation of the devil And God is going to judge the affects of these when we die. As Phil said , it is really very simple.
Semantics are getting in the way here, can’t you just simply give on this one, if you can’t… pray about it, ask the Holy Spirit to block stuff that is getting in the way, and ask for enlightenment and understanding.:yup::clapping::bowdown::thumbsupeace, Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

Semantics are getting in the way here, can’t you just simply give on this one, if you can’t… pray about it, ask the Holy Spirit to block stuff that is getting in the way, and ask for enlightenment and understanding.:yup::clapping::bowdown::thumbsupeace, Carlan

I wasn’t going to answer anymore because it seems no-one gets what I’m trying to say…Bit now I am curious as to “What” I need to give up on ? Seemingly your correct and I am wrong …

 

[Philthy]

Couple of points…Luke warm…Show up in church say/do right thing lives far from God in the world…Someone living on milk not very mature not wil not be producing many good works…I see them way different than some one living a luke warm faith.Now we all agree we are at different maturities and levels of obedience…We are a work in progress, none totally/absolutely obedient…not everyone
producing only good works every day…We do our best, we mess up repent.

I cannot understand where you have differentiated what “lukewarm faith” is from whatever else you were commenting on. Your comments are fairly vague in what they might mean.
As far as I am concerned “living far from God in the world”(your words) is a faith that does not produce good works - it does not love God and neighbor. Christ produced good works, and was obedient to the Father. We are to follow him in faith and love. If our faith is weak or lukewarm (ie it does not love) we will not produce good works. Do you disagree with this?

Some seem to focus on sins vrs what James gives a s works…
Adultery seems to pop up…

Adultery is one of the sins commented on frequently in Scripture. I have no idea who you are talking about when you say “some focus on sins”, nor do I know what you mean by “Adultery seems to pop up”

Sin is sin it all needs repentance or it builds a wall.

This I can agree with.

Lying/getting drunk, adultery all the same …

All sin is not the same, if that was your point. There are degrees of sin - all of which offend God, but not all to the same degree. If you think about the OT penalties for sin prescribed by God, you will easily see that there is a big difference. Some sins were penalized by death, most were not. The point is that God distinguished sin by severity in the OT, and nothing changed that in the NT. In fact, John clearly states that “All wrongdoing is sin but not all sin is deadly.”(cf 1John 5:17)

Let me ask this, say we have a priest/pastor following the Lord gets caught in a snare and has an affair with a councilee. Driving home from the affair he is killed in a wreck. Where do you think he goes…

It depends…according to what you said above, was he repentant? What do you think? Does repentance matter or not? Above you said, “Sin is sin it all needs repentance or it builds a wall.” Well now its time for you to get a little more specific: does having a wall built up between you and God have any eternal consequence if you should die in that state? Yes or no, please, followed by any comments you wish to add.

You bring up Lord Lord…He say depart I never KNEW you…He didn’t say depart because you didn’t do the works.

Actually He did, but you dont want to hear it. 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ** For** I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,…"
The word “for” in the above effectively means “because”. Christ says "Inherit the kingdom because you fed me, clothed me, etc etc. Very straight forward, but if you carry a bias into it, you’ll pull out some largely irrelevant portion (I never knew you) and interpret that as the most important part of the discussion and miss the big picture.

We see people getting to heaven having ash … So those that didn’t do so well. in the works dept will still be saved…

Reference please?
Philthy's last post:

It is not merely the passing through of trials, but how we pass through them. If you are faced with the trial of committing adultery and you pass through the trial by committing adultery that will not bear any fruit…

I should have been more specific…We go through trials in our faith of what is dealt us . We can handle well and bear fruit compared to going through a trial from bad choices…Although that trial can yeild fruit of a changed heart and a maturer walk…
Thank God He is faithful and just when we repent and cleanses us from all righteousness.

I cant tell what you are trying to say, whether you agree or disagree with me. I stand by my original comment. Do you disagree with what I said?

I still see a disconnect between what is sin and lacking good works from immaturity.

Who’s fault is it that one is “immature” in their faith? Is it God’s fault - his grace isnt good enough for us? Or is it our own fault - we have squandered the grace he has poured out on us?

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

I wasn’t going to answer anymore because it seems no-one gets what I’m trying to say…

You need to do a better job of explaining yourself. An inability to write clearly is often an indication of an inability to think clearly. Running off to another thread won’t solve that problem, it will perpetuate it.