Faith alone or not?

[bona_fides_1]

I disagree with your “Protestant notion” of justification being based on Jesus keeping the Law for us. Scripture explicitly states that no man is justified by works of the Law - that would include vicarious Law keeping as well (Rom. 3:20; 27, 28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2).

But scripture tells us plainly that if we love Christ we will keep His commandments - either as a consequence of love or as an additional commandment of law. I bet you can’t discern which sense is correct 'from scripture alone".

BTW - Christ deprecated NO law - he INTENSIFIED IT. Every petty offense and deed will be accounted for. Don’t think for an instant that you are relieved from the law by a belief in the reformer theological teaching of faith in their teaching. Faith in reformer theology has yet to produce a single signal grace/miracle of being successful. And I know you are not speaking from personal experience.

Jesus was born a Jew and therefore “born under the Law” (Gal. 4:4-5). As the unblemished “Lamb of God” He kept the Law perfectly. But that had to do with His perfection, not our salvation. Salvation is not through vicarious Law keeping but through the sacrifice of God’s unblemished Lamb who bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) where He died “to” those sins, once for all (Rom. 6:10). Salvation now being “by GRACE,” “through FAITH” (not Law keeping) in Him alone (Eph. 2:8-9).

But there were men and women (Mary) who never broke the law. Mary was full of grace and blessed among women before Jesus taught the first thing about salvation. St. John The Baptist was sanctified in the womb before Christ was even born and 1500 years before any Protestant came up with the new idea of sola fide. Think these people were justified by faith alone?

There is no salvation in Law keeping, not even vicariously.

So all the OT Jews and those caught in the transition to the New Covenant went to hell for keeping the law?

Nor is it revealed that Christ kept the Law “for us.” But rather that He bore our sins in His body and died to them and was subsequently raised to new life so that all who BELIEVE in Him receive forgiveness of all sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38) and eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; Rom. 6:23).

But Christ did not die for those who were “just” but for those who were sinners. Where there is no sin there is no need for forgiveness or for sacrifice.

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

BF

 

[moondweller]

But scripture tells us plainly that if we love Christ we will keep His commandments - either as a consequence of love or as an additional commandment of law. I bet you can’t discern which sense is correct 'from scripture alone".

Jesus said, “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” He did not say, “If you keep My commandments I will save you; I will give you eternal life.” What is said of Christ in the Scriptures is:John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."And that “by grace through faith” via His finished work on the cross. The Apostles preached the cross, not law.

BTW - Christ deprecated NO law - he INTENSIFIED IT. Every petty offense and deed will be accounted for. Don’t think for an instant that you are relieved from the law by a belief in the reformer theological teaching of faith in their teaching.

Scriptures reveals to us the duration and the purpose of the Law:Gal 3:19 "Why the Law then? It was added (i.e., alongside the Abrahamic Covenant of promise) because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator (Moses), until the seed (Christ) would come to whom the promise had been made."It then goes on to say:Gal 3:23-26 “But before faith came, we were kept in custody under law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Faith in reformer theology has yet to produce a single signal grace/miracle of being successful. And I know you are not speaking from personal experience.

God is the Author of miracles, not men. And at the time of FAITH in Christ the miracle of rebirth, spiritual regeneration, is immediately produced. It’s the greatest of all miracle because attached to it is: forgiveness of all sins, total reconciliation to God, eternal redemption, once for all justification, and the gift of eternal life. It’s what Jesus meant when He said “greater works than these” (Jn. 14:12).

But there were men and women (Mary) who never broke the law.

That is the testimony of religious men, not the Scriptures. God proclaims in His Word:Rom 3:23 "…for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"Scripture gives us no exceptions, save the Son of Man (2 Cor. 5:21).

Mary was full of grace and blessed among women before Jesus taught the first thing about salvation. St. John The Baptist was sanctified in the womb before Christ was even born and 1500 years before any Protestant came up with the new idea of sola fide. Think these people were justified by faith alone?

Neither of these people were without sin. Just because they lived before Rom. 3:23 was written doesn’t exclude them of the word “ALL.”

So all the OT Jews and those caught in the transition to the New Covenant went to hell for keeping the law?

Nobody goes to Hell for Law keeping. But Law keeping won’t save anyone from it. Nor do works of any kind.

But Christ did not die for those who were “just” but for those who were sinners. Where there is no sin there is no need for forgiveness or for sacrifice.

And the Scriptures speak to this:Rom 3:10 "…as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one.”

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”[/indent]

Jesus was answering His critics (the self-righteous Pharisees) according to their own point of view. They assumed that they themselves were righteous by their rigorous attempts to follow the Law and their added traditions; as well as their meticulous efforts to maintain ceremonial purity. They looked down on all others with disdain and hypocritically referred them as “sinners” (thereby excluding themselves). It’s those who know they’re sick (sinners) who come to Christ, the Great Physician. Those who “think” they’re healthy (righteous) by their deeds and merit have no need of Him. Hence they see no need to believe in Him. But here’s what the Scriptures say:Rom 3:10 "There is NONE righteous, NOT EVEN ONE."That’s not “reformed theology,” it’s Divine Revelation. Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is not man’s theology, it’s Divine Revelation.

 

[paul_c]

Jesus said, “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” He did not say, “If you keep My commandments I will save you; I will give you eternal life.”

Actually, Jesus did say that if you keep his commandments you will have eternal life. Its recorded in all the synoptic gospels. As an example from Matthew 19:

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
As you can see, Jesus clearly says exactly what you said he did not say…

What is said of Christ in the Scriptures is:John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."And that “by grace through faith” via His finished work on the cross.

But that’s not all it says of Christ now is it. Sure the fundamental reason for Christ dying on the Cross is to save. But that does not negate that he will also judge. Witness Matthew 25: 31-46: where Jesus clearly judges people on whether they carried out the works of mercy. those that do will be granted heaven, those that don’t will be condemned to hell.

The Apostles preached the cross, not law.Scriptures reveals to us the duration and the purpose of the Law:Gal 3:19 "Why the Law then? It was added (i.e., alongside the Abrahamic Covenant of promise) because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator (Moses), until the seed (Christ) would come to whom the promise had been made."It then goes on to say:Gal 3:23-26 “But before faith came, we were kept in custody under law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

The Apostles taught what Jesus taught on the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus did not come to replace the law and the prophets, he came to fulfill them. And yes, now that the law was fulfilled in Jesus, the old Jewish sacrificial laws were no longer necessary. But that didn’t mean that the moral laws were to be discarded. In fact, Paul is very clear that those moral laws are written on all men’s hearts and even if they weren’t aware of them through the law, they would still be accountable to them outside the law. Do you recognize these concepts from Romans?

God is the Author of miracles, not men.

Sure he is and he uses those miracles to point believers to the one true faith. Like at Guadalupe, Fatima and Lourdes. Don’t discount this so readily… Look at all the catholic saints that have been exhumed without decay after decades of being buried. Google the " incorruptables" . Its a very powerfull message.

And at the time of FAITH in Christ the miracle of rebirth, spiritual regeneration, is immediately produced. It’s the greatest of all miracle because attached to it is: forgiveness of all sins, total reconciliation to God, eternal redemption, once for all justification, and the gift of eternal life. It’s what Jesus meant when He said “greater works than these” (Jn. 14:12).

Once for all justification? You must be kidding. No where in scripture does it say that you are justified once for all. In fact, it says you must persevere in the faith. If you truly love god, you wouldn’t even dream of such a “get out of hell free” card. And that’s certainly not what Jesus meant when he said " greater work than these" in John 14:12. There is nothing in all of John that would imply that this is what Jesus meant. this is completely disenguous and you should be very nervous when speaking for the Lord in this way.

That is the testimony of religious men, not the Scriptures. God proclaims in His Word:Rom 3:23 "…for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"Scripture gives us no exceptions, save the Son of Man (2 Cor. 5:21).Neither of these people were without sin. Just because they lived before Rom. 3:23 was written doesn’t exclude them of the word "ALL.

You are reading this literally when it is meant to be read nominally. We know that there are cases where people are sinless - a new born, for instance and we clearly know that Mary was full of grace as declared by the angel Gabrielin Luke’s Gospel. You can’t be full of grace and also with sin. Now Mary is clearly a uique individual in human history so she doesn’t dispell the point that Paul was making in the normative cases.

 

[paul_c]

"Nobody goes to Hell for Law keeping. But Law keeping won’t save anyone from it. Nor do works of any kind.And the Scriptures speak to this:Rom 3:10 "…as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one."Jesus was answering His critics (the self-righteous Pharisees) according to their own point of view. They assumed that they themselves were righteous by their rigorous attempts to follow the Law and their added traditions; as well as their meticulous efforts to maintain ceremonial purity. They looked down on all others with disdain and hypocritically referred them as “sinners” (thereby excluding themselves). It’s those who know they’re sick (sinners) who come to Christ, the Great Physician. Those who “think” they’re healthy (righteous) by their deeds and merit have no need of Him. Hence they see no need to believe in Him. But here’s what the Scriptures say:Rom 3:10 "There is NONE righteous, NOT EVEN ONE."That’s not “reformed theology,” it’s Divine Revelation. Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is not man’s theology, it’s Divine Revelation.

The law doesn’t save but the people who are saved will follow the law. Do you agree with this?

Following this point, If you are a lawbreaker and don’t repent sacramentally, you will be condemned.

 

[bona_fides_1]

Jesus said, “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” He did not say, “If you keep My commandments I will save you; I will give you eternal life.” What is said of Christ in the Scriptures is:John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."And that “by grace through faith” via His finished work on the cross. The Apostles preached the cross, not law.

But Jesus already told us what the greatest commandment of all is and we know that Jesus is God incarnate.

Luke 10:27 He answered: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

It sure sounds to me that love of God is one’s principal labor of love to me. Christ commanded the disciples to teach them to DO all that I COMMANDED YOU He did not command the apostoles to “teach them to believe” seperate from the commandment to take up one’s cross and follow Christ and Love Him. We are here to labor by the sweat of our brow all our days until Christ puts an end to the curse of death. I recommend that you get with the program MD and stop making your Catholic brethren carry you all the way to the promised land. Wishful thinking is not a free ticket to paradise. The Jews had to walk every step of the way through the dessert. All believed in God (with various trials) but all walked the walk as well as talked the talk. No one gains heaven through a work of flapping their lips to heaven in a profession of faith either.

Scriptures reveals to us the duration and the purpose of the Law:Gal 3:19 "Why the Law then? It was added (i.e., alongside the Abrahamic Covenant of promise) because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator (Moses), until the seed (Christ) would come to whom the promise had been made."It then goes on to say:Gal 3:23-26 “But before faith came, we were kept in custody under law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

This is the problem with the fractional truth of Reformer theology. A few verses work but the teachings being non-apostolic in origin and not guided by the Holy Spirit must ALWAYS reveal their error by contradicting other verses. Catholic teaching is true apostolic teaching. NO Catholic teaching contradicts a single verse nor leaves some verses orphans like the Reformer’s theology does nor how your personal innovations do.

And scripture goes on to say:
Math 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Why do I feel like I am beating a dead horse everytime I debate you MD?

God is the Author of miracles, not men. And at the time of FAITH in Christ the miracle of rebirth, spiritual regeneration, is immediately produced. It’s the greatest of all miracle because attached to it is: forgiveness of all sins, total reconciliation to God, eternal redemption, once for all justification, and the gift of eternal life. It’s what Jesus meant when He said “greater works than these” (Jn. 14:12).

Most of this would be a remarkable comment coming from you MD if you had the full truth in there. This is the miracle of BAPTISM - the covenantal sacrament by which a person normatively enters through the narrow door to become a new creature in Christ. But notice that God COOPERATES with His People and grants his sacraments through his priests and His people and normatively does not act independent of The Church (yet retains the option to show mercy to whom He shall show mercy). This is where your paper thin reformer theology collapses in its failure to recognize that Emmanuel, “God with us” through the incarnation has bound Himself to man through His Body - The Church.

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

That is the testimony of religious men, not the Scriptures. God proclaims in His Word:Rom 3:23 "…for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"Scripture gives us no exceptions, save the Son of Man (2 Cor. 5:21).

Scripture certainly makes exceptions - it tells us clearly that the Holy Spirit will guide His Church to all truth. You are not a formal member of His Church so you have no guarantee of arriving at the truth. And from reason alone it can easily be argued that St. Paul NEVER meant everyone/ALL in the absolute sense since he did not exclude Jesus (see Heb 4:15)in his statement. That is an assumption you make from a different text all together. You can’t mix scriptural contexts and expect rational results.

Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11). Ergo Paul was speaking dramatically to his audience as the “all” - not to the all in the absolute sense. Therefor I have just proven 2 general cases of exceptions that prove that literal interpretations here are folly.

Besides Mary was declared blessed above all women and full of grace by the Angel Gabriel. For Mary to be above all women means she had to be above Eve before Eve fell. That quite logical also means Mary had to have never sinned or been born with sin or she could not be blessed above Eve.

Neither of these people were without sin. Just because they lived before Rom. 3:23 was written doesn’t exclude them of the word "ALL.

Does MD stand here at CAF in the role of accuser of John the Baptist and Mary? Name their sin if you have witnessed it otherwise do not accuse others of things you assume from faulty logic and without personal witness.

"Nobody goes to Hell for Law keeping. But Law keeping won’t save anyone from it. Nor do works of any kind.And the Scriptures speak to this:Rom 3:10 "…as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one.”

As I have just demonstrated your understanding and interpretation of scripture is materially flawed. That means all your conclusions are too.

Jesus was answering His critics (the self-righteous Pharisees) according to their own point of view. They assumed that they themselves were righteous by their rigorous attempts to follow the Law and their added traditions; as well as their meticulous efforts to maintain ceremonial purity. They looked down on all others with disdain and hypocritically referred them as “sinners” (thereby excluding themselves). It’s those who know they’re sick (sinners) who come to Christ, the Great Physician. Those who “think” they’re healthy (righteous) by their deeds and merit have no need of Him. Hence they see no need to believe in Him. But here’s what the Scriptures say:Rom 3:10 "There is NONE righteous, NOT EVEN ONE."That’s not “reformed theology,” it’s Divine Revelation. Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is not man’s theology, it’s Divine Revelation.

Agree here that Jesus was addressing His critics and likely using a charitable form of sarcasm to teach the Pharisees their faults.

How ironic that those who “think they are saved” by Reformer theology can’t see that they do exactly the same thing the Pharisees do in judging themselves “saved” before God gets any word of judgement on the matter. What is it - arrogance, pride or just invincible ignorance?

If we took your literal interpretation of Romans 3:10 to the letter - then Paul just invalidated all of his own contributions to NT Scripture by forgetting to except himself from being a liar and deceived and unrighteous. Was Paul telling the truth that all men lie or not here? Paul had no clue that his words when spoken and later written would become “NT Scripture”. Given that Paul did not except himself then by your line of reasoning NT scripture was written and discerned by men who were all deceptive and liars. That creates an impossible tautology and makes scripture a lie! Shame on you! Can’t you see how silly Reformer theology and fundamentalism is and how easy it is to demonstrate it to be complete nonsense?

There is NO scripture verse that says anything about “by faith alone” except the one that rejects this ridiculous Reformer error:

*James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and **NOT **by faith alone.” *

More here: Aren’t We Saved by Faith Alone?

Time to come into the fullness of faith teachings and become Catholic MD…

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

The Apostles preached the cross, not law.:

I forgot to correct this other error of yours too…

Reformers have tried to start a new tradition of removing Christ from the cross. This is foolishness. Scripture teaches Christ crucified - NOT the cross alone. We are called to carry our own crosses to become Christ-like in following Him however. But the cross is useless without the Lamb of God as the sacrifice.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
1 Cor 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

BF

 

[JonNC]

I forgot to correct this other error of yours too…

Reformers have tried to start a new tradition of removing Christ from the cross. This is foolishness. Scripture teaches Christ crucified - NOT the cross alone. We are called to carry our own crosses to become Christ-like in following Him however. But the cross is useless without the Lamb of God as the sacrifice.

http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/catholic-crucifix-bernini-fides.jpg
1 Cor 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

BF

Hi BF,
Be sure to stipulate which Protestant reformers. Luther to modern day Lutherans use the crucifix. One of my most cherished possessions is my dad’s crucifix, which he wore outside is alb. Adn we, too, preach Christ crucified.

Jon

 

[bona_fides_1]

Hi BF,
Be sure to stipulate which Protestant reformers. Luther to modern day Lutherans use the crucifix. One of my most cherished possessions is my dad’s crucifix, which he wore outside is alb. Adn we, too, preach Christ crucified.

Jon

Good advise Jon. It is noble that you still hold to the original Catholic legacy of original reverences and traditions that we Catholics have held up continuously since apostolic times and forwarded on to subsequent generations.

BF

 

[JonNC]

Good advise Jon. It is noble that you still hold to the original Catholic legacy of original reverences and traditions that we Catholics have held up continuously since apostolic times and forwarded on to subsequent generations.

BF

And some of us are grateful.

Jon

 

[moondweller]

Actually, Jesus did say that if you keep his commandments you will have eternal life. Its recorded in all the synoptic gospels. As an example from Matthew 19:
As you can see, Jesus clearly says exactly what you said he did not say…

Look at it again, PC. Where does Jesus say “If you keep MY commandments you will have eternal life?” Don’t confuse Moses (the Law giver) with Jesus (the LIFE giver).

But that’s not all it says of Christ now is it. Sure the fundamental reason for Christ dying on the Cross is to save. But that does not negate that he will also judge.

Catholicism has no concept of the word “saved.” You agree that He died on the cross to “save,” but you deny the word itself, and in so doing you deny the very thing you agreed that He came into this world to do: “save sinners” [1 Tim. 1:15). Jesus said:John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Witness Matthew 25: 31-46: where Jesus clearly judges people on whether they carried out the works of mercy. those that do will be granted heaven, those that don’t will be condemned to hell.

That is not a “judgment” scene. He’s separating His sheep from the goats. They’re being separated according to their identity.

The Apostles taught what Jesus taught on the Sermon on the Mount.

The doctrines of the cross are not in the Sermon on the Mount. The doctrines of the cross are what the Apostles taught. That Sermon is not about the cross or salvation through faith in Christ who accomplished it there. In that Sermon there’s no mention of justification by faith (Rom. 3:30), reconciliation to God (2 Cor. 5:18), redemption through His blood (1 Pet. 1:18-19), having been sanctified by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18; Heb. 10:14), the gift of eternal life in Christ (Rom. 6:23), or the believer’s body being conformed to Christ’s resurrected, glorified body (Phil. 3:20-21). No, nowhere do the Apostles teach:Matt 5:29-30 “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.”

Jesus did not come to replace the law and the prophets, he came to fulfill them.

He did fulfill the Law - all of it. This is clearly seen in 2 Cor. 5:21:"He made Him who knew no sin…"Jesus, born a Jew, born under the Law, lived His whole life in perfect harmony with the moral requirements of the Law."…{to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."He fulfilled the Law’s sacrificial requirement. Those substitutionary, animal sacrifices were fulfilled in Christ, God’s ultimate Substitute. Our sins were imputed to Him on the cross, and God’s righteousness imputed to all who believe in Him.

Once for all justification? You must be kidding. No where in scripture does it say that you are justified once for all.

Rom 5:1 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”

You are reading this literally when it is meant to be read nominally. We know that there are cases where people are sinless - a new born, for instance and we clearly know that Mary was full of grace as declared by the angel Gabrielin Luke’s Gospel. You can’t be full of grace and also with sin.

New borns die because they’re born sinners in Adam, according to the testimony of God’s Word. It’s Divine Revelation:"…and death spread to all men because all sinned."Mary, according to the Scriptures, was “highly favored,” not sinless.

The law doesn’t save but the people who are saved will follow the law. Do you agree with this?

No. The true believer is not under law, but under grace (Rom. 6:14).Rom 5:1-2 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”

 

[moondweller]

But Jesus already told us what the greatest commandment of all is and we know that Jesus is God incarnate.

Luke 10:27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

That’s according to the Law. Have you done this perfectly throughout your whole life? If you say “yes,” your delusional. Also, God saves no one according to Law (which is impossible) but according to GRACE through faith in Jesus Christ.

Why do I feel like I am beating a dead horse everytime I debate you MD?

Because you preach works and there’s no life in works. Life (eternal) is in Christ alone:1 John 5:11-12 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.”

And from reason alone it can easily be argued that St. Paul NEVER meant everyone/ALL in the absolute sense since he did not exclude Jesus (see Heb 4:15)in his statement.

“Reason alone” tells you that Paul meant ALL of Adam’s fallen race. Christ Himself is another “Adam.” He’s called the “second Man.”

Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin.

“…and death spread to all men because ALL sinned.” Infant mortality testifies to this Divinely revealed truth. Only one man (and woman) ever became a sinner by an act of sinning. The rest of us are born sinners in him.

Besides Mary was declared blessed above all women and full of grace by the Angel Gabriel. For Mary to be above all women means she had to be above Eve before Eve fell.

She was “highly favored,” and she is “blessed among women,” not “above” women. All generations count her “blessed” because she, among all Jewish women, was chosen to give birth to the Messiah. She was not extraordinary; the One she bore is the extraordinary One. Biblical Christianity is not a mother/son religion.

Does MD stand here at CAF in the role of accuser of John the Baptist and Mary? Name their sin if you have witnessed it otherwise do not accuse others of things you assume from faulty logic and without personal witness.

Both Mary and John were born of Adam; hence, both were born sinners. But were in need of life and this life is only in Christ.

How ironic that those who “think they are saved” by Reformer theology can’t see that they do exactly the same thing the Pharisees do in judging themselves “saved” before God gets any word of judgement on the matter. What is it - arrogance, pride or just invincible ignorance?

1 Tim 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,…"

John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."This you don’t believe.

There is NO scripture verse that says anything about “by faith alone”

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."That, my friend is faith alone by the fact it’s not at all as a result of works. If it’s not as a result of works then it’s all of GRACE (Divine favor) through faith - according to the Scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

I forgot to correct this other error of yours too…

Reformers have tried to start a new tradition of removing Christ from the cross. This is foolishness. Scripture teaches Christ crucified - NOT the cross alone. We are called to carry our own crosses to become Christ-like in following Him however. But the cross is useless without the Lamb of God as the sacrifice.

Oh no. What is taught is a vacant cross. IOW, what Christ accomplished there, two thousand years, He “finished.” It was DONE. He accomplished and finished the sacrificial work He was sent by the Father to do. That of reconciliation, redemption and propitiation. He died, was buried, and was, subsequently, raised to new life three days later.

Now, at the time of personal belief in Him His “finished” work of reconciliation and redemption is immediately applied to the believer in full. IOW, at the time of personal faith the believer is fully redeemed (purchased) by Christ’s blood, and fully reconciled to God through His death. This is what it means to “saved” by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation faith is a personal faith in what He accomplished, once for all, on the cross, two thousand years ago on our behalf.

A vacant cross and an empty tomb are the true believer’s assurance of eternal salvation. His salvation has all to do with the work Christ “finished” two thousand years ago, and nothing to do with what the believer himself does today (“…not as a result of works”). It is this faith by which God saves sinners and justifies the ungodly:John 3:14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."The faith by which God saves looks to what Christ DID when He was lifted up two thousand years ago.

What Christ was accomplishing on the cross could not be seen or understood by those who witnessed it. It had to be Divinely revealed. And that is exactly what the Apostles taught (revealed) concerning the cross of Christ. And those doctrines of the cross were then preserved for us in Holy Writ, the theopneustos, N.T. Scriptures (specifically, the Epistles).

No, the “Reformers” didn’t remove Christ from the cross. To the contrary, they began to teach again what the Apostles first taught (revealed to) men regarding the work that Christ “finished” on it. And upon believing men were “saved.” And they still are.

 

[paul_c]

Look at it again, PC. Where does Jesus say “If you keep MY commandments you will have eternal life?” Don’t confuse Moses (the Law giver) with Jesus (the LIFE giver).

Moon, please. Where did Moses get the Commandments? He got them from God. Jesus is God. Therefore the commandments are Jesus’s commandments.

.

Catholicism has no concept of the word “saved.” You agree that He died on the cross to “save,” but you deny the word itself, and in so doing you deny the very thing you agreed that He came into this world to do: “save sinners”

No, we understand saved. We just don’t extend it to once saved, always saved. If someone falls in a raging river and you pull him out, you have saved his life. But you haven’t saved his life forever. If he falls back in the river, he will either need to be saved again or he will die…

[1 Tim. 1:15). Jesus said:John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

True. the person has been saved and his sins have been forgiven but if he falls from his belief and sins, he will need to be saved again…

That is not a “judgment” scene. He’s separating His sheep from the goats. They’re being separated according to their identity.

So separating them by what they did to the least of their brothers , rewarding them or condemning them, isn’t judging them? I’m sorry . This is not a very convincing argument.

The doctrines of the cross are not in the Sermon on the Mount. The doctrines of the cross are what the Apostles taught.

Moon. Do you believe Matthew was an Apostle? Does the Sermon on the Mount exist in his Gospel? It would seem clear that the Apostles therefore did teach the doctrines of the Sermon on the Mount. St. paul devotes a significant proportion to the moral principles of the sermon on the Mount in each of his epistles as well. Do you really believe Jesus taught moral principles for no reason?

That Sermon is not about the cross or salvation through faith in Christ who accomplished it there. In that Sermon there’s no mention of justification by faith (Rom. 3:30), reconciliation to God (2 Cor. 5:18), redemption through His blood (1 Pet. 1:18-19), having been sanctified by faith in Christ (Acts 26:18; Heb. 10:14), the gift of eternal life in Christ (Rom. 6:23), or the believer’s body being conformed to Christ’s resurrected, glorified body (Phil. 3:20-21).

So what? These points don’t invalidate Jesus’ other teachings. They add to them.

No, nowhere do the Apostles teach:Matt 5:29-30 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Your very quote disputes your point. They teach it in Matthew 5: 29-30.

"He did fulfill the Law - all of it. This is clearly seen in 2 Cor. 5:21:"He made Him who knew no sin…"Jesus, born a Jew, born under the Law, lived His whole life in perfect harmony with the moral requirements of the Law."…{to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."He fulfilled the Law’s sacrificial requirement. Those substitutionary, animal sacrifices were fulfilled in Christ, God’s ultimate Substitute. Our sins were imputed to Him on the cross, and God’s righteousness imputed to all who believe in Him.Rom 5:1 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Right, so we don’t have to sacrifice animals in the temple anymore. That doesn’t invalidate the natural moral law that we all are called to follow though. Read Romans more carefully

“New borns die because they’re born sinners in Adam, according to the testimony of God’s Word. It’s Divine Revelation:”…and death spread to all men because all sinned.

"Mary, according to the Scriptures, was “highly favored,” not sinless.No. The true believer is not under law, but under grace (Rom. 6:14).Rom 5:1-2 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”

Depends on your translation. Can you demonstrate that Mary sinned?

 

[paul_c]

Oh no. What is taught is a vacant cross. IOW, what Christ accomplished there, two thousand years, He “finished.” It was DONE. He accomplished and finished the sacrificial work He was sent by the Father to do. That of reconciliation, redemption and propitiation. He died, was buried, and was, subsequently, raised to new life three days later.

Now, at the time of personal belief in Him His “finished” work of reconciliation and redemption is immediately applied to the believer in full. IOW, at the time of personal faith the believer is fully redeemed (purchased) by Christ’s blood, and fully reconciled to God through His death. This is what it means to “saved” by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation faith is a personal faith in what He accomplished, once for all, on the cross, two thousand years ago on our behalf.

We can have faith in what Jesus accomplished, but unless we FOLLOW him, it won’t apply to us. this is the true gospel message.

A vacant cross and an empty tomb are the true believer’s assurance of eternal salvation. His salvation has all to do with the work Christ “finished” two thousand years ago, and nothing to do with what the believer himself does today

Why do you ignor scripture? It has to do both with what Jesus did and what we do. its not either/ or, both are required.

(“…not as a result of works”). It is this faith by which God saves sinners and justifies the ungodly:John 3:14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."The faith by which God saves looks to what Christ DID when He was lifted up two thousand years ago.

What Christ was accomplishing on the cross could not be seen or understood by those who witnessed it. It had to be Divinely revealed. And that is exactly what the Apostles taught (revealed) concerning the cross of Christ. And those doctrines of the cross were then preserved for us in Holy Writ, the theopneustos, N.T. Scriptures (specifically, the Epistles).

You can not be saved by works alone, anymore than you can be saved by faith alone. Why can’t you grasp the concept that both are required?

No, the “Reformers” didn’t remove Christ from the cross. To the contrary, they began to teach again what the Apostles first taught (revealed to) men regarding the work that Christ “finished” on it. And upon believing men were “saved.” And they still are.

If they follow Jesus…

 

[Tomster]

Scripture certainly makes exceptions - it tells us clearly that the Holy Spirit will guide His Church to all truth. You are not a formal member of His Church so you have no guarantee of arriving at the truth. And from reason alone it can easily be argued that St. Paul NEVER meant everyone/ALL in the absolute sense since he did not exclude Jesus (see Heb 4:15)in his statement. That is an assumption you make from a different text all together. You can’t mix scriptural contexts and expect rational results.

Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11). Ergo Paul was speaking dramatically to his audience as the “all” - not to the all in the absolute sense. Therefor I have just proven 2 general cases of exceptions that prove that literal interpretations here are folly.

Besides Mary was declared blessed above all women and full of grace by the Angel Gabriel. For Mary to be above all women means she had to be above Eve before Eve fell. That quite logical also means Mary had to have never sinned or been born with sin or she could not be blessed above Eve.

Does MD stand here at CAF in the role of accuser of John the Baptist and Mary? Name their sin if you have witnessed it otherwise do not accuse others of things you assume from faulty logic and without personal witness.

As I have just demonstrated your understanding and interpretation of scripture is materially flawed. That means all your conclusions are too.

Agree here that Jesus was addressing His critics and likely using a charitable form of sarcasm to teach the Pharisees their faults.

How ironic that those who “think they are saved” by Reformer theology can’t see that they do exactly the same thing the Pharisees do in judging themselves “saved” before God gets any word of judgement on the matter. What is it - arrogance, pride or just invincible ignorance?

If we took your literal interpretation of Romans 3:10 to the letter - then Paul just invalidated all of his own contributions to NT Scripture by forgetting to except himself from being a liar and deceived and unrighteous. Was Paul telling the truth that all men lie or not here? Paul had no clue that his words when spoken and later written would become “NT Scripture”. Given that Paul did not except himself then by your line of reasoning NT scripture was written and discerned by men who were all deceptive and liars. That creates an impossible tautology and makes scripture a lie! Shame on you! Can’t you see how silly Reformer theology and fundamentalism is and how easy it is to demonstrate it to be complete nonsense?

There is NO scripture verse that says anything about “by faith alone” except the one that rejects this ridiculous Reformer error:

*James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and **NOT ***by faith alone.”

More here: Aren’t We Saved by Faith Alone?

Time to come into the fullness of faith teachings and become Catholic MD…

BF

“As I have just demonstrated your undersanding and interpretation of scripture is materially flawed. That means all your conclusions are too.” - bona fides

The infallible word of God, the Bible, needs an infallible interpreter, and Moon, you ain’t it.

 

[moondweller]

Moon, please. Where did Moses get the Commandments? He got them from God. Jesus is God. Therefore the commandments are Jesus’s commandments.

Can you show me where Jesus ever called the Decalogue "My Commandments?"John 1:17 "For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."Two totally different ministries, Paul. The Scriptures always connect the Law to Moses, not Jesus. Jesus, in fact, being a Jew was born under the jurisdiction of the Law - and fulfilled it. Even the Decalogue. Christ is the end (goal) of the Law (Rom. 10:4).

No, we understand saved. We just don’t extend it to once saved, always saved.

Like I said, Catholicism does not comprehend the meaning of the word “saved.” That’s because it’s basically works oriented, not GRACE oriented. One cannot be “saved” (a completed Divine act) when one is still working for it himself.

If someone falls in a raging river and you pull him out, you have saved his life. But you haven’t saved his life forever. If he falls back in the river, he will either need to be saved again or he will die…

Then that person wasn’t truly saved from the river, was he? But of the true believer the Scriptures say that he was redeemed (purchased) with precious blood, the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19). Twice Paul states in his letter to the believers in Corinth:1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.”

1 Cor 7:23 "You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men."Can you show me where it’s revealed that God sells back those whom He once purchased? Of the believer it’s said that he is “sealed” in Christ by the Holy Spirit:Eph 1:13-14 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God’s own} possession, to the praise of His glory."You see, Paul, we who are saved are provided with a Divine life jacket. The “river” can no longer harm us. The “saved” are truly “saved.”

So separating them by what they did to the least of their brothers , rewarding them or condemning them, isn’t judging them? I’m sorry . This is not a very convincing argument.

They were separated by their identity: “sheep” vs. “goats.”

Moon. Do you believe Matthew was an Apostle? Does the Sermon on the Mount exist in his Gospel? It would seem clear that the Apostles therefore did teach the doctrines of the Sermon on the Mount.

The Gospel of Matthew is an account of the earthly ministry of Jesus. Matthew records in his account what Jesus said, not what Matthew himself taught.

St. paul devotes a significant proportion to the moral principles of the sermon on the Mount in each of his epistles as well. Do you really believe Jesus taught moral principles for no reason?

Paul didn’t teach the Sermon on the Mount. His exhortations to good behavior was for the sake of Christ - to glorify Him. He never told believers that if their eye causes them to stumble to tear it out. Or to cut off the arm that makes them stumble.

Can you demonstrate that Mary sinned?

No need to. She was “born” into Adam’s fallen race: “…for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” It’s your extrabiblical Marian doctrine that doesn’t conform to the Scriptures.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus said, “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” He did not say, “If you keep My commandments I will save you; I will give you eternal life.”

Rom.2 God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. …[13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Hmmm.

That is the testimony of religious men, not the Scriptures. God proclaims in His Word:Rom 3:23 "…for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"Scripture gives us no exceptions, save the Son of Man (2 Cor. 5:21).Neither of these people were without sin. Just because they lived before Rom. 3:23 was written doesn’t exclude them of the word "ALL.

This is a common scripture taken out of context by our Reformed brethren. They fail to see that it’s source in the Psalm distinguishes the righteous, and the unrighteous. They also ignore that Jesus came to save the sinners, not the righteous. But Scripture testifies that “my righteous one shall live by faith”. It is possble to live a righteous life under the Law.

Luke 1:[5] In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
[6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Reformed theology has to ignore this passage too…

 "Nobody goes to Hell for Law keeping.  But Law keeping won't save anyone from it.  Nor do works of any kind.

Rom.2 God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. …[13]** For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. **

And the Scriptures speak to this:Rom 3:10 "…as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one.”

The only way to make this verse support the Reformed position is to ignore other passages, and to take this one out of context.

But here’s what the Scriptures say:Rom 3:10 "There is NONE righteous, NOT EVEN ONE."That’s not “reformed theology,” it’s Divine Revelation. Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is not man’s theology, it’s Divine Revelation.

On the contrary, it is Reformed theology, and it leaves out important elements of the gospel message, such as the passage from Romans above about the Judgement, and parts of the gospels where Jesus is clear that we will be judged by our deeds. It constitutes “a different gospel” than the one that was handed down to us from the Apostles.

 

[placido]

The Scriptures always connect the Law to Moses, not Jesus.

No, the Scriptures always connect the Law to the Lord / God:

1. “Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.’ Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments” (Exodus 34:27-28).
2. “They asked Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the LORD had given to Israel” (Nehemiah 8:1)
3. “Walk in God’s law, which was given through Moses” (Nehemiah 10:29-30).
4. “The law of Moses, which the Lord God of Israel had given” (Ezra 7:6)
5. “Hilkiah the priest found the book of the law of the LORD given by Moses” (2 Chron 34:14)

placido

 

[placido]

Like I said, Catholicism does not comprehend the meaning of the word “saved.”

You say Catholicism does not comprehend the meaning of the word “saved” and Catholicism would say you don’t comprehend the meaning of the word “saved” … what then?
You have no solution to that problem because the Church that was supposed to make the final judgement on the matter (cf Acts 15) is – according to you – invisible.

placido