Faith alone or not?

[bona_fides_1]

She was “highly favored,” and she is “blessed among women,” not “above” women. All generations count her “blessed” because she, among all Jewish women, was chosen to give birth to the Messiah. She was not extraordinary; the One she bore is the extraordinary One. Biblical Christianity is not a mother/son religion.

My friend. you say this because you are a fundamentalist and a literalist - a person who knows but only 1 of the 4 known senses of scripture. You choose not to comprehend the greater dimensions of what the Holy Spirit reveals. Be more open to hearing with a spiritual ear the deeper dimension of truth. Empathize with God’s purpose in the context of Israel & contextualize within the full sense of scripture. This phraseology takes its starting chord from the 1st hint of God’s deliverance in Genesis. This first spark of hope of redemption plays out through progressive prophetic revelation and resonates forward in time within the hopes and dreams of every young Jewish maiden ever born up to the time of Christ. Once it was understood that there was to be a Messiah every Jewish woman’s greatest dream was to be the mother of Messiah. This was the highest blessing God could give any woman – but none understood the fullness of that blessing was well beyond the mere temporal act.

The phrase “blessed among women” must be properly taken against the historical backdrop and idioms of the day. Even a man should be able to empathize and discern that it is more accurate to embrace this verse spiritually as “most blessed among all women”. After all, to be a descendent of the fallen race of Adam but among “the chosen people of God” and then selected by God above all others as mother of Messiah is the very pinnacle of Divine favor. What could be more blessed? Further, Elizabeth acknowledges Mary’s blessing in the SAME context as the 2nd phrase “blessed is the fruit of thy womb.” **Elizabeth makes no distinction between the degree of Mary’s blessing and the degree of the blessing bestowed by God on the fruit of her womb - The Living Word made incarnate - The Lord. This equivalence in degree of blessing is unassailable. This calibrates the degree of blessing to “highest possible”. There is simply no conceivably higher blessing than God can give to Himself - “The Lord” and to the arc of the new covenant that carries Him. **

The time was ripe for Messiah – and every Jewish young woman wanted to be chosen to be His mother. When these verses are spoken by Elizabeth they fall like a tear of joy upon a quiet and hushed sea of anticipation as first witness to Israel that the time is at hand. Mary knows what she carries in her womb but Israel is just now waking up to recognizing it (‘This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel’ Luke 2:34; ‘I tell you, if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out!’ Luke 19:40). Visualize the ripples. Elizabeth’s words echo the angel Gabriel’s own salutation as well as the other strong prefiguring Jewish heroines (ref. Jael & Judith). “Blessed are you among women” reverbs through Israel’s history and eventually swell into a frothy sea of rebirth for humanity. Just as God did in the Creation accounts of Genesis, He is once again blowing over the waters of Creation to bring new life and order to a barren humanity. The Lord Himself has entered Daughter Zion through the gate that no man may enter (Ezekiel 44 2: ) just as John the Baptist stirs to prepare the way; a new universal covenantal baptismal waters of rebirth are soon to flow. Behind Elizabeth’s words (Luke 1:42) are the Angel Gabriel’s own prior salutation – as well as all the tearful hopes, sufferings and expectations of all historical Jewish mothers. Recall the witness of history. There are similar gestation pangs and stirring of expression in the “blessed women”; strong Jewish women like Jael and Judith. Both exceptional women prefigure Mary as “The Woman” in Genesis.** Notice here that each of these women hailed as “blessed” struck mortal blows to the heads of God’s enemies (Israel’s enemies). **

• Genesis 3:15 (Douay-Rheims) I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women

Judges 5:24 Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, most blessed of tent-dwelling women.”

Judges 13:18 O daughter (Judith), you are blessed by the Most High God, above all women on earth”

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1:42 And she [Elizabeth] cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
[continued]

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

[from prior]

She was “highly favored,” and she is “blessed among women,” not “above” women.

Read scripture holistically with an expectation of divine promise and fulfillment. Remember that God is eternal and His story is a love story. Everything is spoken from eternity. Ignore the textual breaks of books, chapters and verses. These are human concepts and categories. “The Word” is one continuous unbroken breath of God that begins in Genesis (“Let there be light”) and is transmit/heard throughout all of history through the voice and hearts of the prophets & people. That word is carried forward in time to take root in the heart of humanity through “The Woman” (“Let it be done according to thy word”). The Word Becomes Flesh (Jesus).

The Word is living and works toward a Divine objective viz Divine Providence - forming God’s people and delivering them to Himself. Israel is a living metaphor. God’s People are universal (e.g. Catholic) - a Holy nation taken from among all of humankind (both Jew & Gentile). There is an ancient wrong and enmity between man and Satan that God means to set straight.

Perhaps the best artistic imagery I have ever seen that depicts the full range of imagery in this area is presented in the counter-reformation art piece Madonna and Child with St. Anne (Dei Palafrenieri) by Caravaggio. Here we see the cooperative redemptive relationship between God and man. The Christ Child at Mary’s side (new Adam & new Eve) crushes the serpent’s head by pressing down on Mary’s foot to give her the authority and the weight (power) to do the deed. Or is it Mary simply teaching the Christ child how to do what Genesis foretells will happen but which leaves somewhat ambiguous as to the particulars of who “it” is that does the physical deed?

• Genesis 3:15 (Douay-Rheims) I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. *

Mary is Mother of God and is blessed above all women and all created men as well…

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

That’s according to the Law. Have you done this perfectly throughout your whole life? If you say “yes,” your delusional. Also, God saves no one according to Law (which is impossible) but according to GRACE through faith in Jesus Christ.

Please keep me out of it as I am not making any personal claim to be sinless. This is a weak attempt to create a distractive strawman. Do you realize that what you say sure seems to strand a lot of OT Jews out of heaven? I thought nothing was impossible for God?

That’s because you preach works and there’s no life in works. Life (eternal) is in Christ alone:1 John 5:11-12 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.”

I do? I don’t recall preaching works but your own preaching here sure sounds like a hard-labor to make any sense of. Are you sure you are not doing the same thing you accuse all Catholics of doing and trying to work your own way into heaven through labored belief?

Life is in Christ alone - CHECK.
But who is in Christ?

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have** life **within you.

MD, is eating and drinking a work and do you partake of the Eucharist so that you may have Life within you as commanded?

“Reason alone” tells you that Paul meant ALL of Adam’s fallen race. Christ Himself is another “Adam.” He’s called the “second Man.”

Christ actually referred to Himself more often as “Son of Man”. He was a descendent of David. David was a descendent of Adam. But we know that Christ did not sin. Therefore reason alone should tell you that Paul meant “all” in the general sense not in the absolute non-exceptional sense.

You still have not explained how Paul having not excepted himself from “ALL” men being liars is able to speak the truth in all the epistles he wrote. Sorry you can’t have it both ways.

“…and death spread to all men because ALL sinned.” Infant mortality testifies to this Divinely revealed truth. Only one man (and woman) ever became a sinner by an act of sinning. The rest of us are born sinners in him.

Infant mortality teaches no such thing. Infants have committed no sin. Deaths such as this are a consequence of an inherited defect of humanity occasioned by original sin. It is a cause and effect of Adam’s sin that impacts humanity for all time. We are not born sinners. We are all born with a defective nature that retains an appetite for sin (concupiscence). But it is impossible to sin gravely without a formed conscience and the intellectual facilities to consent to sin. The expression “death spread to all men” obviously excludes Christ. The pattern of exception is thus proven since Christ was true man as well as true God and Paul did not mention Christ as an exception to “All”.

BF

 

[bona_fides_1]

Oh no. What is taught is a vacant cross. IOW, what Christ accomplished there, two thousand years, He “finished.” It was DONE. He accomplished and finished the sacrificial work He was sent by the Father to do. That of reconciliation, redemption and propitiation. He died, was buried, and was, subsequently, raised to new life three days later.

Now, at the time of personal belief in Him His “finished” work of reconciliation and redemption is immediately applied to the believer in full. IOW, at the time of personal faith the believer is fully redeemed (purchased) by Christ’s blood, and fully reconciled to God through His death. This is what it means to “saved” by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation faith is a personal faith in what He accomplished, once for all, on the cross, two thousand years ago on our behalf.

A vacant cross and an empty tomb are the true believer’s assurance of eternal salvation. His salvation has all to do with the work Christ “finished” two thousand years ago, and nothing to do with what the believer himself does today (“…not as a result of works”). It is this faith by which God saves sinners and justifies the ungodly:John 3:14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."The faith by which God saves looks to what Christ DID when He was lifted up two thousand years ago.

What Christ was accomplishing on the cross could not be seen or understood by those who witnessed it. It had to be Divinely revealed. And that is exactly what the Apostles taught (revealed) concerning the cross of Christ. And those doctrines of the cross were then preserved for us in Holy Writ, the theopneustos, N.T. Scriptures (specifically, the Epistles).

No, the “Reformers” didn’t remove Christ from the cross. To the contrary, they began to teach again what the Apostles first taught (revealed to) men regarding the work that Christ “finished” on it. And upon believing men were “saved.” And they still are.

Poppycock. If it “was finished” and the cross was to be taught as “empty” there would have been no reason for Christ to tell us to carry our crosses and follow him nor any reason to give the Great Commission to evangelize the world:

*Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 28 :19-20 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ina the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.*

There is no scriptural verse that says that the redemptive powers of Christ are immediately applies to somone based on a sinner prayer or altar call etc. Baptism is the closest thing to this but being “Saved” is not a one time event. Salvation is a matter of past, present and future. No one is “saved” until God judges them saved and one is crowed in glory in heaven.

Further there was never any concept of “personal salvation”. This is a neo-Christian innovation not heard of but in the last 500 years. Salvation was always taken in the context of “God’s People” - that is “The Church”. Outside of the church there is no personal salvation. Period. Just where do you think that body on the cross went?

BF

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
Moon, please. Where did Moses get the Commandments? He got them from God. Jesus is God. Therefore the commandments are Jesus’s commandments.

MD, why do exclude parts of scripture from your understanding? Its all part of one glorious whole to explain the path to God. The commandments came from God and Jesus even summarized them in the Great Commandment and explained them in the Sermon on the Mount. They most certainly are his.

No, we understand saved. We just don’t extend it to once saved, always saved.

It sad that you don’t understand that the word saved applies to a discreet event

Quote:
If someone falls in a raging river and you pull him out, you have saved his life. But you haven’t saved his life forever. If he falls back in the river, he will either need to be saved again or he will die…

Think about this again. When the man has been pulled from the river and is standing on the boat, he has been saved. The one who rescues him, says " You are safe now, but if you jump back in the river, you will again be in peril". That’s how it really is.

Quote:
So separating them by what they did to the least of their brothers , rewarding them or condemning them, isn’t judging them? I’m sorry . This is not a very convincing argument

Were they really sheep or goats? No. in verse 37, the people on the right were called the righteous. They loved others an we are told will inherit eternal life. In verse 41, the people on the left are called accursed because they didn’t help others. They will inherent eternal punishment. Moon, if you can’t understand that this is a discussion of judgement, God help you…

Quote:
Moon. Do you believe Matthew was an Apostle? Does the Sermon on the Mount exist in his Gospel? It would seem clear that the Apostles therefore did teach the doctrines of the Sermon on the Mount.

Moon, you are much smarter than this. The Apostles taught what Jesus taught them.

Quote:
St. paul devotes a significant proportion to the moral principles of the sermon on the Mount in each of his epistles as well. Do you really believe Jesus taught moral principles for no reason

The sermon on the mount is a summary of Jesus moral teachings. Of course Paul taught them, albiet maybe not in the exact form. But the content is there. Are you seriously suggesting that Paul wanted Christians to act morally to make Jesus look good? God is so far above man that nothing man can do would add to his glory. The reason Paul taught Christians to act morally is because he believed that was required to enter heaven. See what he writes in Romans 2:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek
.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Can you demonstrate that Mary sinned?

. She was born without original sin…

Moon, you have been on these pages a long time. . You must recognize by now how tortured your defenses have become. There’s a very real reason for this. Please at least think about what we are showing you. Very few people stay on this forum this long without being converted. The spirit is leading you but he won’t make you drink. You must do that on your own

 

[guanophore]

Can you show me where Jesus ever called the Decalogue “My Commandments?”

Do you think that Jesus is not God, or that He is somehow separate from the same God of the OT?

Gen.26
[5] because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
Exod.16
[28] And the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exod.20
[6] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Lev.22
[31] "So you shall keep my commandments and do them: I am the LORD.
Lev.26
[3] "If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them,
[15] if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,
Num.15
[40] So you shall remember and do all my commandments, and be holy to your God.
Deut.5
[10] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
[29] Oh that they had such a mind as this always, to fear me and to keep all my commandments, that it might go well with them and with their children for ever!
Deut.11
[13] “And if you will obey my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
1Sam.15
[11] “I repent that I have made Saul king; for he has turned back from following me, and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry; and he cried to the LORD all night.
1Kgs.3
[14] And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statutes and my commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days.”
1Kgs.6
[12] "Concerning this house which you are building, if you will walk in my statutes and obey my ordinances and keep all my commandments and walk in them, then I will establish my word with you, which I spoke to David your father.
1Kgs.9
[6] But if you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them,
1Kgs.11
[34] Nevertheless I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand; but I will make him ruler all the days of his life, for the sake of David my servant whom I chose, who kept my commandments and my statutes;
[38] And if you will hearken to all that I command you, and will walk in my ways, and do what is right in my eyes by keeping my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did, I will be with you, and will build you a sure house, as I built for David, and I will give Israel to you.
1Kgs.14
[8] and tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you; and yet you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commandments, and followed me with all his heart, doing only that which was right in my eyes,
2Kgs.17
[13] Yet the LORD warned Israel and Judah by every prophet and every seer, saying, “Turn from your evil ways and keep my commandments and my statutes, in accordance with all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.”
1Chr.28
[7] I will establish his kingdom for ever if he continues resolute in keeping my commandments and my ordinances, as he is today.’
2Chr.7
[19] "But if you turn aside and forsake my statutes and my commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them,
Neh.1
[9] but if you return to me and keep my commandments and do them, though your dispersed be under the farthest skies, I will gather them thence and bring them to the place which I have chosen, to make my name dwell there.’
Ps.89
[31] if they violate my statutes
and do not keep my commandments,

Prov.2
[1] My son, if you receive my words
and treasure up my commandments with you,

Prov.3
[1] My son, do not forget my teaching,
but let your heart keep my commandments;

Prov.4
[4] he taught me, and said to me,
"Let your heart hold fast my words;
keep my commandments, and live;

Prov.7
[1] My son, keep my words
and treasure up my commandments with you;

[2] keep my commandments and live,
keep my teachings as the apple of your eye;

Isa.48
[18] O that you had hearkened to my commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
and your righteousness like the waves of the sea;

4Ezra.15
[24] “Woe to those who sin and do not observe my commandments,” says the Lord;
4Ezra.16
[76] You who keep my commandments and precepts," says the Lord God, “do not let your sins pull you down, or your iniquities prevail over you.”

John 1:17 "For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."Two totally different ministries.

 The Scriptures always connect the Law to Moses, not Jesus.

As can be clearly seen from the collection of references above, the Scriptures connect the COMMANDMENTS to GOD!

I think you may be confusing the two.

 

[guanophore]

Like I said, Catholicism does not comprehend the meaning of the word “saved.”

Moon, you are so silly sometimes. I think you have forgotten that the NT is a Catholic book! There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. It was written by, for, and about Catholics! However, our understanding about salvation, unlike yours, is not extracted from it’s pages some 1500 years after the fact. Our understanding of “saved” comes from Jesus directly through the Apostles.

We understand the concept differently than you because we have received this teaching preserved infallibly in the Church by the Holy Spirit. You come from a faith tradition that separated itself from those Apostolic Teachings in favor of those generated by other men.
These other men rejected the Apostolic Teachings and embraced heresies.

 That's because it's basically *works* oriented, not GRACE oriented.

It amazes me that you have been on CAF so long, and yet you still have not understood what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

You are still clinging to your erroneous ideas of what Catholics believe, in contrast to the Truth. It may be that you are truly inviincible.

One cannot be “saved” (a completed Divine act) when one is still working for it himself.

This is a true statement because it is consistent with Catholic faith. When one works out one’s salvation, he does so for the sake of Christ, not for himself. There is a big difference between “working for it” and working out what is already inside of a person by grace, through faith.

But of the true believer the Scriptures say that he was *redeemed* (purchased) with precious blood, the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19).  Twice Paul states in his letter to the believers in Corinth:1 Cor 6:20 "***For you have been bought with a price***: therefore glorify God in your body."

This is also a true statement, because it is Catholic.

1 Cor 7:23 "***You were bought with a price***; do not become slaves of men."Can you show me where it's revealed that God sells back those whom He once purchased?

God does not sell anyone back, Moon. But a person who has been purchased or adopted can choose to walk back into slavery. If this were not true, then the Apostle would not have to give so many warnings about returning into that slavery.

Of the believer it's said that he is "*sealed*" in Christ by the Holy Spirit:Eph 1:13-14 "*In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--**having also believed***, **you were sealed in Him** with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory."

Yes, sadly, there are a good many sealed souls in hell, not having been united with their heavenly inheritance.

You see,  we who are saved are provided with a Divine life jacket.  The "river" can no longer harm us.

This is probably one of the most dangerous of the heresies formed as a result of the Reformation.

The Gospel of Matthew is an account of the earthly ministry of Jesus. Matthew records in his account what Jesus said, not what Matthew himself taught.Paul didn’t teach the Sermon on the Mount. His exhortations to good behavior was for the sake of Christ - to glorify Him. He never told believers that if their eye causes them to stumble to tear it out. Or to cut off the arm that makes them stumble.No need to.

This pervsersion of the faith is an outgrowth of dispensationalism. The idea that the Apostles did not believe and teach the same faith committed to them by Christ is also the spawn of heresy.

All of what Jesus taught was for the glory of God. The Gospel did not change “this side of the cross”.

She was “born” into Adam’s fallen race: “…for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” It’s your extrabiblical Marian doctrine that doesn’t conform to the Scriptures.

Your idea that all of the doctrine should be found in the Scriptures does not either.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

[from prior]

Read scripture holistically with an expectation of divine promise and fulfillment. Remember that God is eternal and His story is a love story. Everything is spoken from eternity. Ignore the textual breaks of books, chapters and verses. These are human concepts and categories. “The Word” is one continuous unbroken breath of God that begins in Genesis (“Let there be light”) and is transmit/heard throughout all of history through the voice and hearts of the prophets & people. That word is carried forward in time to take root in the heart of humanity through “The Woman” (“Let it be done according to thy word”). The Word Becomes Flesh (Jesus).

The Word is living and works toward a Divine objective viz Divine Providence - forming God’s people and delivering them to Himself. Israel is a living metaphor. God’s People are universal (e.g. Catholic) - a Holy nation taken from among all of humankind (both Jew & Gentile). There is an ancient wrong and enmity between man and Satan that God means to set straight.

Perhaps the best artistic imagery I have ever seen that depicts the full range of imagery in this area is presented in the counter-reformation art piece Madonna and Child with St. Anne (Dei Palafrenieri) by Caravaggio. Here we see the cooperative redemptive relationship between God and man. The Christ Child at Mary’s side (new Adam & new Eve) crushes the serpent’s head by pressing down on Mary’s foot to give her the authority and the weight (power) to do the deed. Or is it Mary simply teaching the Christ child how to do what Genesis foretells will happen but which leaves somewhat ambiguous as to the particulars of who “it” is that does the physical deed?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...vaggioSerpent.jpg/300px-CaravaggioSerpent.jpg

• Genesis 3:15 (Douay-Rheims) I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. *

Mary is Mother of God and is blessed above all women and all created men as well…

BF

Awesome post, awesome painting! Thank you so much for this!

 

[Pitcharan]

Awesome post, awesome painting! Thank you so much for this!

The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom 16:20)

 

[moondweller]

Moon, you are so silly sometimes. I think you have forgotten that the NT is a Catholic book!

I’ve not forgotten that, guanophore. I’ve never accepted that statement. The N.T. is God’s Book; it’s His written Word.

There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. It was written by, for, and about Catholics!

I don’t see “Catholics” mentioned in it.

However, our understanding about salvation, unlike yours, is not extracted from it’s pages some 1500 years after the fact. Our understanding of “saved” comes from Jesus directly through the Apostles.

You can know nothing of salvation as taught by the Apostles except that which was preserved by God in Holy Writ - the theopneustos Scriptures.

We understand the concept differently than you because we have received this teaching preserved infallibly in the Church by the Holy Spirit. You come from a faith tradition that separated itself from those Apostolic Teachings in favor of those generated by other men.
These other men rejected the Apostolic Teachings and embraced heresies.

You mean like salvation by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9)? If only ALL men would embrace such “heresy.”

It amazes me that you have been on CAF so long, and yet you still have not understood what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

You and I have conversed a lot and you know I know much about what the CC believes and teaches.

This is a true statement because it is consistent with Catholic faith. When one works out one’s salvation, he does so for the sake of Christ, not for himself. ** There is a big difference between “working for it” and working out what is already inside of a person by grace, through faith**.

That’s right. And if it’s there by GRACE (“not as a result of works”) then it cannot be lost. It’s God’s work, not ours. If you’re going to embrace the truth of it, then embrace it ALL, guanophore.

This is also a true statement, because it is Catholic.

What I quote is Biblical, not “Catholic.”

God does not sell anyone back, Moon. But a person who has been purchased or adopted can choose to walk back into slavery. If this were not true, then the Apostle would not have to give so many warnings about returning into that slavery.

The saved can again entangle themselves in sin, but one cannot lose his salvation. Read the verse in all its context, my friend:1 Cor 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."The “purchased” (bought with the price of Christ’s shed blood) are no longer their own; they cannot chose to go back. They’re not their own, they belong to God.

Yes, sadly, there are a good many sealed souls in hell, not having been united with their heavenly inheritance.

Sorry, but you need to go back and read 1 Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13 and 4:30. The “sealed” are not destined for Hell. Your statement is rooted in unbelief.

This pervsersion of the faith is an outgrowth of dispensationalism. The idea that the Apostles did not believe and teach the same faith committed to them by Christ is also the spawn of heresy.

They did teach the faith committed to them by Christ. The content of that faith was His death, burial and bodily resurrection. It’s believing what He accomplished, once for all, on the cross that results in salvation - not Christ’s Sermon on the Mount.

All of what Jesus taught was for the glory of God. The Gospel did not change “this side of the cross”.

The “gospel” (good news) is about the cross.1 Cor 1:21-24 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."I guess some would call this “heresy.”

 

[Pax]

…
…
It’s believing what He accomplished, once for all, on the cross that results in salvation - not Christ’s Sermon on the Mount.The “gospel” (good news) is about the cross.

1 Cor 1:21-24 "*

…*

Moon,

The second half of your statement is the exact opposite of what scripture has to say. First of all, the good news is not only “believing what Jesus accomplished on the cross that results in salvation.” The good news is the gospel. The good news is the gospel in its entirety including all that Jesus said and did. A very important part of the gospel/good news is the fact that we become freed from being slaves of sin. Likewise, the sermon on the mount is part of the good news. Jesus spoke the words of the sermon on the mount and all that Jesus said is part of the good news.

Now…you contend that nothing else is part of the good news except “believing what Jesus accomplished on the cross that results in salvation.” But Jesus, himself, clearly disagrees with you. We know this from many passages of scripture, but John 12:47-50 is particularly on point. It reads as follows:

If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me.

​

 

[guanophore]

I’ve not forgotten that, guanophore. I’ve never accepted that statement. The N.T. is God’s Book; it’s His written Word.I don’t see “Catholics” mentioned in it.

Well, your refusal to accept the facts do not make them any less the facts.

The word “Catholic”, first appearing in Acts 9:31 comes from the descriptor used there by Luke, and by the early Fathers for the One, Holy, and Apostolic Church, has been used from the time Luke wrote his gospel and the Acts of the Apostles to the present day.

All the Christians described in the NT were Catholics, and the books were written by Catholics, for Catholics. That is why there is nothing in it that is not Catholic!

If any of the contents were not consistent with the Catholic faith, they would not have been included in the canon of scripture, when the Catholic Church closed in in 382. Non-catholic ideas contained in other books claiming to be authentic excluded them.

We understand what it says differently because Catholics read it in the light of what the original authors believed and taught.

You read it in the light of ideas created by men some 1500 years after the fact.

You can know nothing of salvation as taught by the Apostles except that which was preserved by God in Holy Writ - the theopneustos Scriptures.

If this were true, then there would BE no New Testament. On the contrary, Jesus committed His word to the Church,a nd His HS was sent to preserve that Word infallibly until He comes again. Through that Church, which He promised to guide into all Truth, He caused to be written, preserved, promulgated and canonized those scriptures that you believe contain the fullness of His revelation to man.

You mean like salvation by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9)? If only ALL men would embrace such “heresy.”

Many have done so, and thereby been led astray.

God’s saving grace is never “alone”, because it ALWAYS produces the good works that have been prepared for the saved from the foundation of time.

Faith in Christ is never alone, as He has created and espoused His Church, through which He manifests His glory to the world.

You and I have conversed a lot and you know I know much about what the CC believes and teaches.

If you have been here all this time, and still believe that the Catholic church teaches “works based” salvation, then no, you do not know what the CC believes and teaches. You are clinging to a strawman, and fighting that which you have only imagined, and does not in reality exist.

And if it’s there by GRACE (“not as a result of works”) then it cannot be lost. It’s God’s work, not ours.

I think “lost” is a poor choice of words, especially in a discussion with someone such as yourself. It is much more appropriate to say that it has not yet been gained.

The fact that it is God’s work does not preclude our participation in it.

Phil.2
[12] Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, **work out your own salvation **with fear and trembling; [13] for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

This is in the imperative mode - a commandment. Catholics receive and obey this apostolic commandment.

We work, because He is at work in us.

1Tim.4
[10] For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Heb.4
[11] Let us therefore** strive **to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Heb.12
[14] Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

We toil and strive, because our hope is set upon Him, and because without holiness, no one shall see God.

The Reformers erroenously taught that we do not need to work, or toil, or strive for holiness. The modern spiritual progeny of them teach that salvation is a “done deal” when someone prays the sinners prayer, but scripture clearly says otherwise.

If you’re going to embrace the truth of it, then embrace it ALL, guanophore.What I quote is Biblical, not “Catholic.”

The scriptures you quote are certainly Catholic, having come from the Catholic Church, but your interpretation of those Catholic verses are woven from modern heresies. It is you that refused to embrace the whole truth, since you deny that God’s Word is alive and well in the Church, as well as the Scriptures.

Have you ever considered receiving this Word as the early disciples did?

1Thes.2
[13] And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

The Word of God is at work in the Church, as much as in the Scriptures. When you say that it remains only in the Scripture, then you call God a liar.

Isa.55
[11] so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Jesus purposed to found a Church, and committed His Word to that Church. The proper thing for which He sent this word is to guide us to salvation. He promised that the Church would be led into “all Truth”.

It is sad that you are unable to believe these very great and precious promises.

 

[guanophore]

The saved can again entangle themselves in sin, but one cannot lose his salvation.

I have to agree with this statement. The Apostles taught that our salvation was not completed in this life.

Read the verse in all its context, my friend:1 Cor 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."The “purchased” (bought with the price of Christ’s shed blood) are no longer their own; they cannot chose to go back.

This is not correct, Moon. Slaves are bought with a price, and they can run away. It does not make them any less purchased.

Don’t you realize that all of the exhortations of the Apostles to purity would not be necesary if it were not possible to fall back into sin, and fail to obtain our inheritance in heaven.

They’re not their own, they belong to God.Sorry, but you need to go back and read 1 Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13 and 4:30. The “sealed” are not destined for Hell.

Well, of course not! All who are sealed are destined for heaven! Their seal, and God’s desire for them, however, will not necessarily guarantee that they will be united with the treasure that is stored up for them in heaven.

Your statement is rooted in *unbelief*.

To an extent, this is true. Catholics are not at liberty to embrace the doctrines you propose, because they are a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. Were we to “believe” them, or embrace them, it would be 'believing a different gospel" and therefore, we would be accursed.

 They did teach the faith committed to them by Christ.  The content of that faith was His death, burial and bodily resurrection.  It's believing what He accomplished, once for all, on the cross that results in salvation - not Christ's Sermon on the Mount.

The Apostles did not separate these from one another. They transmitted ALL that Jesus gave them.

The “gospel” (good news) is about the cross.

Indeed, the cross is part of the Gospel message, but the message is not limited to it. Jesus also taught a way of life, and desires to rescue of from sin here and now, as well as for eternity.

 I guess some would call this "*heresy*."

No, the Catholic verses you have quoted from the Catholic New Testament are defintely not heresy. The heresy lies in the abandonment of the moral obligations of the Gospel,and the notion that the Sermon on the Mount is not part of the Apostolic Teaching.

 

[moondweller]

The second half of your statement is the exact opposite of what scripture has to say. First of all, the good news is not only “believing what Jesus accomplished on the cross that results in salvation.” The good news is the gospel. The good news is the gospel in its entirety including all that Jesus said and did.

No, the “gospel” is the good news message that because of Christ’s, once for all, sacrificial work on the cross, God saves men BY GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through personal faith in Him. When the Philippian jailer asked what he must do to be saved, Paul and his companions responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…” (Acts 16:31). To the Corinthians he wrote:1 Cor 1:23 “…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,”

and:

1 Cor 2:2 "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified…"Paul was sent to the Gentiles with the “gospel” (good news). And that “gospel” is that God has provided the way (the only way), through the cross of Christ, for men to now stand forever pardoned before Him; not because He is gracious enough to excuse their sins, but because there is plentiful redemption in the blood that Christ shed on the cross. And so the Apostolic message was (and still should be):Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Col 1:14 "…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."The forgiveness of sins toward sinners, who turn to Christ by faith, is not an immediate act of Divine grace, but rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the fact that his dept has been FULLY paid by Another: Jesus Christ (read Col. 2:13-14).

This is the “good news” to be believed on by men for salvation, and which has everything to do with the cross. Jesus alluded to this in Jn. 3:14-18 where He spoke about He being “lifted up” (cf. Jn. 12:32-33). But He Himself did not preach the message of the cross to Israel since He had not yet gone to the cross. That message which pertains to what Christ accomplished there for man’s salvation, and which was entrusted to His Apostles to be believed by men AFTER He died, was buried, and rose from the dead three days later.

For this reason Paul said the message he took to the Gentiles was “Christ crucified.”

A very important part of the gospel/good news is the fact that we become freed from being slaves of sin.

No true. What is taught by Paul in his Epistles is that all who put their faith in Christ have, positionally, died with Christ TO sin, once for all (Rom. 6). And He concludes: “…for he who has died is freed from sin.” Not feed from “the slavery of sin,” but rather sin itself, having died to it with Christ. The believer no longer need be “a slave to sin” because he has “died TO sin,” once for all, with Christ and made alive in Him (the resurrected Christ). And based on this revealed truth Paul logically asks the true believer: "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Of course that doesn’t mean that the believer will never sin again, but sin has no power over him, either to enslave (he is to now walk by the Spirit who indwells him) or condemn (Christ paid his penalty in full).

This statement by Jesus is considerably different from your claims.

No at all. Let’s read what Jesus was “saying” in context:John 12:44-48 "And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. I have come {as} Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."What He was saying was that He came to save the world through belief in Him. This is congruent with the cross message of salvation He entrusted to His Apostles.

Salvation is not through belief in a church, or a creed, but personal belief in Him. But not apart from the cross He endured for the forgiveness of sins and redemption for all who would only believe.

 

[moondweller]

All the Christians described in the NT were Catholics, and the books were written by Catholics, for Catholics. That is why there is nothing in it that is not Catholic!

No they’re not. “Catholic” was the name adopted by the Western church (claiming for itself Catholicity) after the schism. The Eastern church adopted the name “Orthodox” (claiming for itself doctrinal purity), each to the exclusion of the other.

If any of the contents were not consistent with the Catholic faith, they would not have been included in the canon of scripture, when the Catholic Church closed in in 382. Non-catholic ideas contained in other books claiming to be authentic excluded them.

You’re stating here that the Scriptures are subordinate to the doctrines of your church, rather than your church subordinate to the Scriptures. And that is true, seen especially with your extrabiblical Marian doctrines

God’s saving grace is never “alone”, because it ALWAYS produces the good works that have been prepared for the saved from the foundation of time.

Salvation produces good works, but good works do not produce salvation.

I think “lost” is a poor choice of words, especially in a discussion with someone such as yourself. It is much more appropriate to say that it has not yet been gained.

Which would mean “salvation by works.”

The fact that it is God’s work does not preclude our participation in it.

Which would mean “salvation by works.”

We work, because He is at work in us.

But not FOR salvation.

We toil and strive, because our hope is set upon Him, and because without holiness, no one shall see God.

Men are not made holy by how much the “strive.” They’re made holy in the resurrected Christ.

The Reformers erroenously taught that we do not need to work, or toil, or strive for holiness. The modern spiritual progeny of them teach that salvation is a “done deal” when someone prays the sinners prayer, but scripture clearly says otherwise.

No one is ever saved by saying a prayer. Men are saved by believing - according to the Scriptures.

 

[Tomster]

No, the “gospel” is the good news message that because of Christ’s, once for all, sacrificial work on the cross, God saves men BY GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through personal faith in Him. When the Philippian jailer asked what he must do to be saved, Paul and his companions responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…” (Acts 16:31). To the Corinthians he wrote:1 Cor 1:23 “…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,”

and:

1 Cor 2:2 "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified…"Paul was sent to the Gentiles with the “gospel” (good news). And that “gospel” is that God has provided the way (the only way), through the cross of Christ, for men to now stand forever pardoned before Him; not because He is gracious enough to excuse their sins, but because there is plentiful redemption in the blood that Christ shed on the cross. And so the Apostolic message was (and still should be):Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Col 1:14 "…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."The forgiveness of sins toward sinners, who turn to Christ by faith, is not an immediate act of Divine grace, but rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the fact that his dept has been FULLY paid by Another: Jesus Christ (read Col. 2:13-14).

Let’s read what Jesus said.

“For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven.” Matthew 5:20

Our Lord here shows us that it is necesary not only to believe in him, but also to keep all the Commandments (as the Pharisees were scrupulous in their obsevance of the Mosaic Law). This standard indicates the very high level of perfection to which we are called. “Faith alone” is refuted.

Read Matthew 7:16-27

Jesus puts salvation in very practical terms. He reiterates the teaching of Matthew 5:20 by emphasizing acts of obedience, as oppossed to mere verbal proclamations or head knowledge. Even some miraculous works are not necessarily under his superintendence.

A similar dynamic is also present in Matthew 25:31-46, the great scene of the separation of sheep and goats, where Christ continually makes the works of faith the central criterion of judgment. And again in Luke 18:18-25, where the rich young ruler asked Jesus what must he do to inherit eternal life, Jesus asks if he kept the Commandments. Upon finding out that he has, he commands him to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor. Jesus was quite an incompetent missionary, according to the pragmatic evangelistic techniques and criteria for “success” which prevail among many of today’s Evangelical/Fundamentalists

Nothing whatsoever is spoken about faith alone in any of these passages, as would be rightfully expected if Luther were correct about the nature of saving faith. All Christians agree that a person living unrighteously is in great danger. Catholics say that such a one has lost the state of grace through mortal sin, whereas most Evangelical/Fundamentalists contend that they were never saved at all. In any event, the outcome is the same in both cases if the sinning persists: hellfire.

 

[Tomster]

No they’re not. “Catholic” was the name adopted by the Western church (claiming for itself Catholicity) after the schism. The Eastern church adopted the name “Orthodox” (claiming for itself doctrinal purity), each to the exclusion of the other.You’re stating here that the Scriptures are subordinate to the doctrines of your church, rather than your church subordinate to the Scriptures. And that is true, seen especially with your extrabiblical Marian doctrinesSalvation produces good works, but good works do not produce salvation.Which would mean "salvation by works."Which would mean "salvation by works."But not FOR salvation.Men are not made holy by how much the “strive.” They’re made holy in the resurrected Christ.No one is ever saved by saying a prayer. Men are saved by believing - according to the Scriptures.

Moon,

We’ve covered all of this with you time and time again and refuted you each and every time.

 

[guanophore]

No, the "*gospel*" is the good news message that because of Christ's, once for all, sacrificial work on the cross, God saves men BY GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through personal faith in Him.  When the Philippian jailer asked what he must do to be saved, Paul and his companions responded, "*Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...*" (Acts 16:31).  To the Corinthians he wrote:1 Cor 1:23 "...***but we preach Christ crucified***, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,"

Yes, of course. This is the beginning of the walk of faith with God. And, if you continue reading this passage, written by Catholic, for Catholics, you will see what the jailer and his family did.

Catholics, like the Apostles, do not separate the deeds that befit repentance from salvation.

You have built a soteriology from a handful of verses, this one, with several others, that results in a truncated gospel message.

Also, the ignoring of the Sermon on the Mount, one of the fruits of dispensationalism, is founded upon the premise that Jesus basically wasted his whole three years of ministry teaching the people. Since He knew that the Jews would reject Him, the instruction that He gave, if meant only for the Palestinian Jews of His day and age, was wasted.
and:

1 Cor 2:2 "*For I determined to know nothing among you except **Jesus Christ, and Him crucified***..."

One of the passages where we see the use of the crucifix, also denied by Calvanists, reflected in Scripture.

You see, for Paul “Jesus Christ” meant all that He said and did, not just “Him Crucified”.

Paul was sent to the Gentiles with the "*gospel*" (good news).  And that "*gospel*" is that God has provided the way (the only way), through the cross of Christ, for men to now stand forever pardoned before Him; not because He is gracious enough to excuse their sins, but because there is plentiful *redemption* in  the blood that Christ shed on the cross.

You know this because this truth has been infallibly preserved in the Catholic Church by the Holy Spirit from that day, until this.

But Paul did not stop there. He also communicated to them the principles of living the moral life that befits those who are saved. This way of life, called by the Apostles “Sacred Tradtiion”, cannot be separated from the message of Redemption.

And so the Apostolic message was (and still should be):Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

It is indeed. However, where the children of Calvin cut the message here, communicating the appreviated version, the Catholic Church is obligated to preserve the Apostolic faith in it’s entirety. That is why, once a person has received forgiveness of sins, one is instructed in the obligation to live a life worthy of the calling to which they have been called, and to live out the grace that has been sealed within them.

Col 1:14 "…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."The forgiveness of sins toward sinners, who turn to Christ by faith, is not an immediate act of Divine grace, but rather a judicial pardon of a debtor in view of the fact that his dept has been FULLY paid by Another: Jesus Christ (read Col. 2:13-14).

Both things are true. The Aposltes taught that Jesus does not just doctor the books, and declare our debt paid, but that it is actually paid, by an immediate act of Divine Grace. We are transformed by that grace, as He pours into us the abundance of His mercy.

 

[moondweller]

I have to agree with this statement. The Apostles taught that our salvation was not completed in this life.

To the contrary.

This is not correct, Moon. Slaves are bought with a price, and they can run away. It does not make them any less purchased.

Those who now belong to God are made “sons,” not slaves:Gal 3:26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Gal 4:6 “Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!”

Don’t you realize that all of the exhortations of the Apostles to purity would not be necesary if it were not possible to fall back into sin, and fail to obtain our inheritance in heaven.

The exhortation to a holy life is because we who have believed are no longer “sinners,” but “saints by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2). Your logic is rooted in a works for salvation mentality.

Well, of course not! All who are sealed are destined for heaven! Their seal, and God’s desire for them, however, will not necessarily guarantee that they will be united with the treasure that is stored up for them in heaven.

Again, based on the logic of a works mentality.

Indeed, the cross is part of the Gospel message, but the message is not limited to it.

1 Cor 1:17-18 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

Jesus also taught a way of life, and desires to rescue of from sin here and now, as well as for eternity.

The means by which He rescues men is by way of the cross and belief in Him, not lifestyle. According to the Scriptures, men are saved by grace through faith, being created in Christ Jesus unto (for) good works, not by them (Eph. 2:8-10).