Faith alone or not?

[guanophore]

This is the “good news” to be believed on by men for salvation, and which has everything to do with the cross. Jesus alluded to this in Jn. 3:14-18 where He spoke about He being “lifted up” (cf. Jn. 12:32-33). But He Himself did not preach the message of the cross to Israel since He had not yet gone to the cross.

This is one of the failings of the Reformed Theology, which teaches that the message of the gospel was summarized by Paul, and not by Christ. However, the Aposltes have transmitted to us Jesus’ teaching about the cross, and what it means with regard to our daily living. Calvin wanted to separated Jesus’ teaching about the cross from Paul’s. We are not permitted to do that, because we have recieved the “once for all” Divine Deposit of faith, that we are instructed to retain in wholeness. We do not have the liberty, as the Reformers to to themselves, to begin slicing up the Gospel, and excising portions of it.

That message which pertains to what Christ accomplished there for man’s salvation, and which was entrusted to His Apostles to be believed by men AFTER He died, was buried, and rose from the dead three days later.

Indeed.

And also the way of life in which He trained them, and by which they lived out that salvation day to day.

For this reason Paul said the message he took to the Gentiles was "Christ crucified."No true. What is taught by Paul in his Epistles is that all who put their faith in Christ have, positionally, died with Christ TO sin, once for all (Rom. 6). And He concludes: “…for he who has died is freed from sin.” Not feed from “the slavery of sin,” but rather sin itself, having died to it with Christ. The believer no longer need be “a slave to sin” because he has “died TO sin,” once for all, with Christ and made alive in Him (the resurrected Christ). And based on this revealed truth Paul logically asks the true believer: "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

The two are inseparable, Moon. The way of life that the Christian walks, being delivered from sin, is an outgrowth of these spiritual events that occur in Baptism. Somehow, in your mind, you have separated this “postional” reality from the practical life that the Apostles taught, I am not sure why. The instruction of Jesus and the Apostles in how to walk a life of righteousness is not separated from our birthright in the renewing waters of baptism. The Sacred Tradtiion encompasses that way of life, where we are instructed in how to live freed from sin. The Gospel is for THIS LIFE, as well as for eternithy. We are to produce the fruits of our new identity in Christ.

Of course that doesn’t mean that the believer will never sin again, but sin has no power over him, either to enslave (he is to now walk by the Spirit who indwells him) or condemn (Christ paid his penalty in full).

Indeed, sin need not have power over them, but the Apostles were clear that it is quite possible for a saved person to sin, and to fall back into a life of sin, departing from the grace that upholds him, and as a consequence, fail to be united with his inheritance in heaven.

No at all. Let’s read what Jesus was “saying” in context:John 12:44-48 "And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. I have come {as} Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."What He was saying was that He came to save the world through belief in Him. This is congruent with the cross message of salvation He entrusted to His Apostles.

Yes, and not separated from living the life of faith. In Eph. 2:8-9, we read that we are saved by grace, through faith FOR the works that He has prepared for us. The works of righteousness, therefore, are not separated from the grace that saves. It is the same grace, through faith, that accomplishes both.

Salvation is not through belief in a church, or a creed, but personal belief in Him. But not apart from the cross He endured for the forgiveness of sins and redemption for all who would only believe.

The Apostles taught that Jesus is Head of His Body, the Church. Therefore, all who are joined to Him, are joined to one another. We are not saved “outside” of the Church, for there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.

And, as James clearly teaches, saving faith is faith that WORKS.

 

[placido]

No, the “gospel” is the good news message that because of Christ’s, once for all, sacrificial work on the cross, God saves men BY GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through personal faith in Him. When the Philippian jailer asked what he must do to be saved, Paul and his companions responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…” (Acts 16:31).

When last did you read Luke 18? Does what Paul says contradict what Jesus says?

** An official asked him this question, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
You know the commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother.’”
And he replied, “All of these I have observed from my youth.”
When Jesus heard this he said to him, “There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have a treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” **

placido

 

[bona_fides_1]

No one is ever saved by saying a prayer. Men are saved by believing - according to the Scriptures.

MD, careful here bro - you are sure going to mess up a lot of Protestants who put their entire faith in the preacher’s assurances that saying the sinner’s prayer is going to “save them”.

This is the problem with non-apostolic reformer derived teaching. It is shot full of contradictions on every side and it puts first faith in the original assumption that men with totally depraved intellects through some magical hocus pocus can somehow escape their own depravity to teach a new, improved and perfect understanding of scripture; and from a distance of 1,500 years from any apostolic tradition! To the followers and disciples of the reformers “Sola Fide” must first be: “by faith in the reformer’s (depraved) theories alone” before it is a “faith in Christ alone”. In any case it is out-standing alone in a field of tares in its blatant contradiction.

You elevate “faith” over all other things and completely ignore the many other things that Christ has explicitly commanded us to do. This is because you want a simple theology - something short and easy that you can put on flash cards and “feel” like you are saved. But this is nothing more than a mere “feel good” human teaching - an innovation that appeals to the emotions and the desire for “quick” fixes.

Prayer is an integral part of our salvation since we can not avoid falling into temptation without God’s help. Jesus would not have taught us to pray if we were in no danger of falling away. Prayer is like water to the sprouting seed of faith - without it the sapling whithers or is trampled under foot and never springs back to robust life. Prayer is essential because FAITH ALONE IS NOT SUFFICIENT MD!
Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

Luke 18:1 1Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should** always pray and not give up.**

1 Tim 2:8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing

2 Thes 1:3 We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing.
If you want to use the ol’ slice-n-dice self-serving do-it-yourself methodology we can pick most any biblical text out of the context of apostolic teaching just as you do to find any convenient proof text that contradicts your statements. We have 7,956 NT verses to statistically guarantee that anything you say apart from the apostolic teaching traditions orphans some other verse. No other faith on the planet but Catholicism can knit them altogether, drop none, and make it all rational and still ring 100% true and consistent. Read the Catholic Catechism to see the most incredible exposition of cross-referenced scripture on the planet. The reason Catholics can do this is because we were taught directly by the apostolic tradition and because the Catholic Church has the charism and guarantee of infallability of the Holy Spirit. You don’t have that.

And just what is “believing”??? That “-ing” suffix sure sounds more like a journey along a path more so than like a single-event discovery to me. Faith must be nurtured and grown. How ironic that we Catholics used to call the religion “The Way” before it was exemplified to all over the accessible world to become “universal” or “Catholic”.

*Matthew 3:3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’ "

John 14:4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

John 14:5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 9:1-4 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.
*

Sorry to break this to you MD - but The Way IS A RELIGION MD. It is a process and a pathway to heaven that flows right through the front door of Christ’s Church,the Catholic Church, through Christ on the Cross (the door lentil sprinkled with the passover lamb’s blood) and onward to the Promised Land. It is PATHWAY not a single event (normatively). The Way elicits a seed of faith to grow us in faith so that we may be all that God made us to be.

When you say “such and such a thing is not biblical” I have to smile. Biblical is a Catholic concept. Has it occurred to you that nothing was biblical for the first 350 or so years of the Chrisian Church? It took the Catholic Church till 382 AD to write, discern and produce The Bible. That event made heretical teachings outside of the Church “non-Catholic” (not biblical). When you make these kinds of statements you strand millions of early day Christians and martyers in a sort of reformer’s limbo without a bible or a prayer. You are also asking readers of your posts to put a lot of faith in MD. Shame on you, Long before MD was born and long before there was a written bible there was The Catholic Church. You just have to face the fact MD that you’re the new kid on the block. Get used to being the student not the master.
1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
*

BF

 

[twb1621]

The exhortation to a holy life is because we who have believed are no longer “sinners,” but “saints by calling” (1 Cor. 1:2). Your logic is rooted in a works for salvation mentality.Again, based on the logic of a works mentality…

Your position is in opposition to much of scripture which should tell you your interpretations are incorrect as scripture does not conflict with itself. Second, if you conclude that Knowing Christ means knowing His name and His teachings but not having to live the life He calls us to, you are sadly mistaken. Knowing Him and accepting Him includes accepting His teachings for the life we are to live. that life includes WORKS. but your idea of the works Catholics refer to as necessary to RETAIN our salvation are works of the law. They are not. The works required to RETAIN the salvation Christ offers “so that all men MAY be saved”, are works of Charity in humility with Love of each other in the love of Christ. Can we discard the salvation Christ offers us? absolutely, by rejecting the path He asks us to follow through the teachings of the Gospel.

Not one verse you have offered conflicts with the necessity to live that life of charity and humility which other passages tell us IS necessary and teaches us what that way is, all of which would be useless preaching and print if what you claim was true. If you can not reasonably explain those verses that call us to perform according to the teachings of Christ as preached by the apostles but can only raise another verse that can be misinterpreted to fit your belief, your incorrect in your usage of the verse. Especially if your referred to verse can be correctly interpreted to coincide with the rest of scripture.

Understand what "works’ refers to… Works of Charity and humility with Love of each other in the love of Christ.

can we reject the salvation Jesus offers that all men MAY be saved? you tell me.

Luke CH6; 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command? 47 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. 48 That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. 49 But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”

Matthew CH7; 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you Depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.

Matthew CH25; 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[moondweller]

Your position is in opposition to much of scripture which should tell you your interpretations are incorrect as scripture does not conflict with itself. Second, if you conclude that Knowing Christ means knowing His name and His teachings but not having to live the life He calls us to, you are sadly mistaken.Nope, never said that. :tiphat:

 

[Pax]

No, the “gospel” is the good news message that because of Christ’s, once for all, sacrificial work on the cross,
…
…
He concludes: “…for he who has died is freed from sin.” Not feed from “the slavery of sin,” but rather sin itself, having died to it with Christ. The believer no longer need be “a slave to sin” because he has “died TO sin,” once for all, with Christ and made alive in Him (the resurrected Christ). And based on this revealed truth Paul logically asks the true believer: "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Of course that doesn’t mean that the believer will never sin again, but sin has no power over him, either to enslave (he is to now walk by the Spirit who indwells him) or condemn (Christ paid his penalty in full).No at all. Let’s read what Jesus was “saying” in context:John 12:44-48 "And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. I have come {as} Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."What He was saying was that He came to save the world through belief in Him. This is congruent with the cross message of salvation He entrusted to His Apostles.

Salvation is not through belief in a church, or a creed, but personal belief in Him. But not apart from the cross He endured for the forgiveness of sins and redemption for all who would only believe.

Moon in Christ,

Please note that you wasted an enormous number of key strokes attempting persuade me that the gospel is about the redemptive work of Jesus our savior. I already agree with that point and you should know that. The problem is that there is much more to the good news than what you confine it to. What you need to do is prove that there is nothing else except what you claim. Thus far you have not done so. Likewise, you cannot do so because it is not true, and scripture clearly makes that point over and over again.

Your view of Jesus sayings is contrary to the gospel. Simply open any bible that highlights in red the words and statements of Jesus. Read them, pray on them, and believe them. Take those sayings to heart. Those sayings far exceed your claims.

You went through some twisted logic in some kind of an attempt to deny that Jesus has freed us from committing sin as part of the good news. That is simply erroneous and underestimates and undervalues that which God does for us by way of his grace through the merits of Jesus work on the cross. We know that we are freed from sin and are no longer enslaved by it by way of scriptures verses such as the following:

John 8: 31-36

Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham and have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean by saying, “You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, "Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Rom 6: 6

We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

Rom 6:14-16

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

1 Jn 3: 4-9

Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God.

Acts 13:39

by this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

1 Peter 4:1-2

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same intention (for whoever has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin), so as to live for the rest of your earthly life no longer by human desires but by the will of God.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

You made a fatal error in bringing up belief in Jesus as if it is somehow the only thing and that it is somehow separated from obedience. That is not the message of the gospel and it not the message of any of the apostolic letters.

Likewise, Faith and Obedience are closely related in Judaism. In the Greek NT the following definitions are very helpful. The verse John 3:36 says a great deal about faith and obedience for salvation. The verse reads as follows:

“He who believes[pisteuo] in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obeyapeitheo the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

Strong’s Number: 4100
Transliterated: pisteuo
Phonetic: pist-yoo’-o

Text: from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): --believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Strong’s Number: 544
Transliterated: apeitheo
Phonetic: ap-i-theh’-o

Text: from 545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): --not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

I hope this begins to help.

 

[Pax]

…
…
Salvation is not through belief in a church, or a creed, but personal belief in Him. But not apart from the cross He endured for the forgiveness of sins and redemption for all who would only believe.

Moon in Christ,

This is one of those statements that is best classified as a straw man argument. Catholics believe in Jesus Christ and we believe all that Jesus said and taught. That is what constitutes a creed. Likewise, we believe all that Jesus said and taught about the Church that he established. You apparently reject both church and creed, which can only be understood to reflect a rejection of at least some of what Jesus said and taught.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

Moon in Christ,

Let’s see if scripture speaks of the “good news/gospel” in the limited terms that you do. The following passages are instructive:

Luke 3:16-18

John answered them all, “I baptize you with water; but he who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” So, with many other exhortations, he preached good news to the people.

This verse clearly speaks to Christian baptism in contrast to John’s baptism as well the Holy Spirit as part of the good news associated with Jesus. Likewise, John with “many other exhortations” preaches the good news about Jesus.

Luke 4:16-19

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the sabbath day. And he stood up to read; and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

So part of the good news is to proclaim the release of captives and recovering of the sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed. These terms refer to all those that are captives of sin, blind to the truth, and oppressed by sin and the flesh. Jesus is telling us as part of the good news that his redemptive work will free us from these things. We will be free from the bondage of the flesh because we will be enabled by and led by the Spirit to do so. That is great and fabulous good news!!!

In Luke 4:42-44 we read this statement:

And the people sought him and came to him, and would have kept him from leaving them; but he said to them, “I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other cities also; for I was sent for this purpose.” And he was preaching in the synagogues of Judea.

Jesus made this statement in the context of the previously quoted passage followed by verses describing the exorcising demons and finally the healing of the fever that was consuming Peter’s mother. This tells us a great deal more about the good news than your view allows.

Then in Luke 7:21-23 we read this:

In that hour he cured many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were blind he bestowed sight. And he answered them, “Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have **good news **preached to them. And blessed is he who takes no offense at me.”

Once again the good news is preached in light of miracles that point to the healing of the soul and the inner change that takes place in the believer.

We see this same thing again in Luke 8:1-3 where it says:

SOON AFTERWARD he went on through cities and villages, preaching and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.

Then we have the following that once again puts the good news in terms and context that go far beyond your contentions:

Luke 16:13-18

No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all this, and they scoffed at him. But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God. "The law and the prophets were until John; since then **the good news **of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void. "Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

The context of that passage goes on by telling the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Your views are simply too limited.

In Act 8 the preaching of the good news is mentioned again and it is done so in the context of receiving the Holy Spirit and the power that comes by way of the Holy Spirit. This too goes beyond what you have argued. Acts 8 also makes reference to the Ethiopian eunuch mentioning the prophetic scriptures concerning Jesus crucifixion which Philip explained. The good news spoken to the eunuch included baptism which he immediately requested from Philip.

Although there is much more that can be given to you on this subject, I will quote but one more passage. Please note the connection to obedience/disobedience in the passage.

Heb 4:6-11

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received **the **good news failed to enter because of disobedience,…“Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”. …Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience.

God bless.

 

[placido]

We are getting a glimpse of what Moondweller really believes. First he told us sinning does not affect one’s salvation (i.e. no one goes to hell because of sin); now he tells us prayer is useless.
Is Moondweller a Christian at all?

placido

 

[moondweller]

Moon in Christ,

Let’s see if scripture speaks of the “good news/gospel” in the limited terms that you do. The following passages are instructive:

Luke 3:16-18

John spoke of the coming of the Messiah to Israel. His was not the gospel of salvation through faith in Christ which was entrusted to Christ’s Apostles AFTER His death, burial and resurrection, but the “gospel of the Kingdom,” which is earthly and was presented to national Israel (see Matt. 3:2; cf. 4:23; 9:35).

Luke 4:16-19, Luke 4:42-44, Luke 7:21-23, Luke 8:1-3, Luke 16:13-18

Each of these has to do with Christ preaching the “gospel of the Kingdom.” That (earthly) Kingdom (see Lk. 1:32-33) never materialized because of national Israel’s rejection of their Messiah. So it was postponed. Keep in mind Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 15:24). That “gospel of the Kingdom” is the one of which the O.T. Jewish prophets prophesied. The “gospel of the Kingdom” will again be preached at the end of this age, just prior to the return of Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords (see Matt. 24:14). It’s an earthly Kingdom over which Jesus reigns for 1000 years.

But now, instead, He ascended back into Heaven and sitting on the right hand of the Majesty on High He has been building His church through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles by grace alone through faith in Him alone. This is the “gospel” entrusted to His Apostles. It’s not the “gospel of the Kingdom,” but the “gospel” (good news) of eternal salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ. It’s the gospel found (primarily) in the N.T. Epistles. A “gospel” of salvation which entails forgiveness of all sins, redemption through His blood, reconciliation to God, justification by faith alone, and sanctification in the risen Christ

In Act 8 the preaching of the good news is mentioned again and it is done so in the context of receiving the Holy Spirit and the power that comes by way of the Holy Spirit. This too goes beyond what you have argued. Acts 8 also makes reference to the Ethiopian eunuch mentioning the prophetic scriptures concerning Jesus crucifixion which Philip explained. The good news spoken to the eunuch included baptism which he immediately requested from Philip.

In Acts eight they’re preaching Jesus Christ and salvation through faith in Him.

Heb 4:6-11

Reference 3:19 and 4:2 where the disobedience is unbelief.

 

[moondweller]

We are getting a glimpse of what Moondweller really believes. First he told us sinning does not affect one’s salvation (i.e. no one goes to hell because of sin); now he tells us prayer is useless.

Nope, never said prayer is “useless.” Just no one is saved by saying a prayer. Salvation is based on FAITH: “For by grace you have been saved through FAITH (not prayer)…” “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved…”

Is Moondweller a Christian at all?

Certainly. Of the Biblical kind.

 

[Pitcharan]

…But I am confused. It seems like we go at paints to defend the Catholic position by using James 2, but then at the same time we say we are NOT saved by works.

I’m confused. Then what does it mean to be justified by faith and works, if works don’t save?

This thread will go in circles and even digress into Protestant Vs Catholic debate without clearing your confusion. It can be cleared ONLY by defining FAITH. Consider this definition and tell me if:
(i) you agree with this definition, and
(ii) it clears your confusion?

**Faith is belief in truth in the absence of tangible evidence by virtue of spiritual vision; this vision is a reward of good works done out of love (including compassion, gratitude, humility, generosity, …)

When Faith involves a long wait, it is called Hope**

 

[Pitcharan]

…I have no problem with works being part of our justification like icing on His work…There are varying degrees of maturity in all but they all still get to heaven from the shed blood of Christ…We see in 1 Cor 3 people still getting save with their work turning to ash…I still see benefits with rewards of the works but don’t see the works or lack of them in the package that is what gets us to heaven…Probable the definition of what y’all see as a work is probably where we disagree most…repentance, belief ect…Is that a standard catholic doctrine? I put James 2:24 up and it even gave some example of works…

Hi. Invite you to check this out:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7019202#post7019202

 

[Tomster]

Nope, never said prayer is “useless.” Just no one is saved by saying a prayer. Salvation is based on FAITH: “For by grace you have been saved through FAITH (not prayer)…” "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved…"Certainly. Of the Biblical kind.

If prayer is not useless, as you say, and if you are saved, again, as you say, why bother praying? Really! What would be the purpose of praying Moon? Why bother. You’re saved! You are absolutley sure of the beatific vision after you pass from this mortal life! All of the sins you have committed in this life have no bearing on your salvation.

Why pray Moon? Have you ever even asked God to forgive the sins you committed after that magic moment when you became assured of your own salvation?

 

[twb1621]

Nope, never said that. :tiphat:

My Christian brother (unless sister), You reflect it. But if this is all you can respond to out of this post, I pray that you are looking more deeply into what has been offered to you. I mean that with all sincerity.

 

[twb1621]

"Certainly. Of the Biblical kind.

Again, you are not truely of the “Biblical Kind” of Christian if you do not accept the full teachings of Christ. That includes those verses you jumped over with no desire to understand there relationship with the verses you incorrectly referred to in past posts.

Your position remains in opposition to much of scripture which should tell you your interpretations are incorrect as scripture does not conflict with itself. Second, if you conclude that Knowing Christ means knowing His name and His teachings but not having to live the life He calls us to, you are sadly mistaken. Knowing Him and accepting
AND HAVING FAITH
in Him includes accepting His teachings for the life we are to live. that life includes WORKS. but your idea of the works Catholics refer to as necessary to RETAIN our salvation are works of the law. They are not. The works required to RETAIN the salvation Christ offers “so that all men MAY be saved”, are works of Charity in humility with Love of each other in the love of Christ. Can we discard the salvation Christ offers us? absolutely, by rejecting the path He asks us to follow through the teachings of the Gospel.

Not one verse you have offered conflicts with the necessity to live that life of charity and humility which other passages tell us IS necessary and teaches us what that way is, all of which would be useless preaching and print if what you claim was true. If you can not reasonably explain those verses that call us to perform according to the teachings of Christ as preached by the apostles but can only raise another verse that can be misinterpreted to fit your belief, your incorrect in your usage of the verse. Especially if your referred to verse can be correctly interpreted to coincide with the rest of scripture.

Understand what "works’ refers to… Works of Charity and humility with Love of each other in the love of Christ.

can we reject the salvation Jesus offers that all men MAY be saved? you tell me.

Luke CH6; 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command? 47 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. 48 That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. 49 But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”

Matthew CH7; 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you Depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.

Matthew CH25; 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

If you think for one second that Jesus went through His passion, death and resurrection for the forgiveness of the future sins of man so that man could go on sinning while keeping that gift of salvation, you would be delusional.

 

[Tomster]

We are getting a glimpse of what Moondweller really believes. First he told us sinning does not affect one’s salvation (i.e. no one goes to hell because of sin); now he tells us prayer is useless.
Is Moondweller a Christian at all?

placido

Good question placido.

It is absolutely necessary for anyone who would save his soul to believe at least two truths: that God exists and that He rewards or punishes in the future life according to one’s deeds in this life. Moon rejects the second part of the above statement.

Moon also rejects the theological virtue of hope which is the infused habit inclining us with firm confidence to expect from God eternal life and the means of attaining it.

Charity, the greatest of these virtues as the Apostle says, has no place in Moon’s blueprint for salvation either. All you have to do is believe and you’re in according to Moon. Sin freely, it doesn’t matter according to Moon’s plan. As the highest of the theological virtues, charity is defined as that infused habit, which inclines us to love God above all things for His sake, and everything that God loves for the sake of Him. But, as Moon has on numerous times told us, ALL YOU HAVE TO IS BELIEVE - PERIOD! Throw out charity too. It doesn’t enter into Moon’s “Simple Plan for Salvation”.

Is Moon a Christian? Go figure!

 

[Tomster]

Again, you are not truely of the “Biblical Kind” of Christian if you do not accept the full teachings of Christ. That includes those verses you jumped over with no desire to understand there relationship with the verses you incorrectly referred to in past posts.

Your position remains in opposition to much of scripture which should tell you your interpretations are incorrect as scripture does not conflict with itself. Second, if you conclude that Knowing Christ means knowing His name and His teachings but not having to live the life He calls us to, you are sadly mistaken. Knowing Him and accepting
AND HAVING FAITH
in Him includes accepting His teachings for the life we are to live. that life includes WORKS. but your idea of the works Catholics refer to as necessary to RETAIN our salvation are works of the law. They are not. The works required to RETAIN the salvation Christ offers “so that all men MAY be saved”, are works of Charity in humility with Love of each other in the love of Christ. Can we discard the salvation Christ offers us? absolutely, by rejecting the path He asks us to follow through the teachings of the Gospel.

Not one verse you have offered conflicts with the necessity to live that life of charity and humility which other passages tell us IS necessary and teaches us what that way is, all of which would be useless preaching and print if what you claim was true. If you can not reasonably explain those verses that call us to perform according to the teachings of Christ as preached by the apostles but can only raise another verse that can be misinterpreted to fit your belief, your incorrect in your usage of the verse. Especially if your referred to verse can be correctly interpreted to coincide with the rest of scripture.

Understand what "works’ refers to… Works of Charity and humility with Love of each other in the love of Christ.

can we reject the salvation Jesus offers that all men MAY be saved? you tell me.

Luke CH6; 46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command? 47 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. 48 That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. 49 But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed.”

Matthew CH7; 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you Depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.

Matthew CH25; 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

twb,

EXACTLY!

The Sermon on the Mount has no meaning for Moon. It is part of the New Testament that his preacher will not cover. There is no room for it in Moon’s false, personal, man-made, oral tradition.

 

[moondweller]

If prayer is not useless, as you say, and if you are saved, again, as you say, why bother praying? Really! What would be the purpose of praying Moon? Why bother. You’re saved! You are absolutley sure of the beatific vision after you pass from this mortal life! All of the sins you have committed in this life have no bearing on your salvation.

I’m still here. I didn’t instantly leave this world at the time of my salvation, by grace through faith. I pray for the salvation of others, that they might turn from their unbelief to belief; for other believers going through hard times; missionaries and other Christian ministries; for government officials; for myself that I may continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of my Lord and Savior. There are many things to pray about, Tom, but my own salvation is not one of them. This was gifted to me at the time of personal faith in Christ. I don’t need to pray for what I already have.

Why pray Moon? Have you ever even asked God to forgive the sins you committed after that magic moment when you became assured of your own salvation?

I don’t ask Him to forgive me, I readily acknowledge my sins and I thank Him that He has forgiven me through Jesus Christ; that He paid my debt in full (Col. 2:13-14), and at the time of faith in Christ I received forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38). I walk by faith in God’s Word:Eph 1:7 “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace..”

Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."This is what being “saved” is, Tom, according to the Scriptures.