Faith alone or not?

[Tomster]

I’m still here. I didn’t instantly leave this world at the time of my salvation, by grace through faith. I pray for the salvation of others, that they might turn from their unbelief to belief; for other believers going through hard times; missionaries and other Christian ministries; for government officials; for myself that I may continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of my Lord and Savior. There are many things to pray about, Tom, but my own salvation is not one of them. This was gifted to me at the time of personal faith in Christ. I don’t need to pray for what I already have.I don’t ask Him to forgive me, I readily acknowledge my sins and I thank Him that He has forgiven me through Jesus Christ; that He paid my debt in full (Col. 2:13-14), and at the time of faith in Christ I received forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38). I walk by faith in God’s Word:Eph 1:7 “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace…”

Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."This is what being “saved” is, Tom, according to the Scriptures.

Wrong again Moon,

There can be no doubt that the Catholic teaching on sanctifying grace does much to encourage within us the spirit of hope. He that is mighty has done great things for us. He has made us his children, he has raised us up to share in his nature, he has set the beatific vision as the end towards we must aspire, and he has given us most wonderful endowments to enable us to reach that end. Well, then, may we hope. Yet in our hope there ought ever to be an element of salutary fear.

We Catholics cannot indulge in that strange security which your Protestant fore-fathers declared to be the one condition for justification. It is part of your man-made system that in order to be justified you must have the unwavering faith that you are justified.

As has been explained and proven to you on so many different occasions you are in serious error.

 

[moondweller]

Again, you are not truely of the “Biblical Kind” of Christian if you do not accept the full teachings of Christ.

I “accept” all the teachings of Christ. But not ALL His teachings directly apply to me. TWB, how many of your eyes have you plucked out? How many arms cut off?

If you think for one second that Jesus went through His passion, death and resurrection for the forgiveness of the future sins of man so that man could go on sinning while keeping that gift of salvation, you would be delusional.

No, I don’t believe He suffered the cross “SO THAT” men can “keep on sinning.” I believe He went to the cross to cancel out the debt (Col. 2:13-14), so that through faith in Him men would receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38) - ALL of them - and in Him “have eternal life” (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; Rom. 6:23; 1 Jn. 5:9-13).

 

[placido]

Nope, never said prayer is “useless.” Just no one is saved by saying a prayer. Salvation is based on FAITH: “For by grace you have been saved through FAITH (not prayer)…”

Funny you felt the need to add ** not prayer ** which the inspired writer never did.

“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved…”

Saying faith alone but nothing else is needed for salvation misleading like telling some one: ** respecting traffic rules is not necessary; all you need is driver’s license. **

placido

 

[paul_c]

I’m still here. I didn’t instantly leave this world at the time of my salvation, by grace through faith. I pray for the salvation of others, that they might turn from their unbelief to belief; for other believers going through hard times; missionaries and other Christian ministries; for government officials; for myself that I may continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of my Lord and Savior. There are many things to pray about, Tom, but my own salvation is not one of them.

Moon,

From a practical perspect, how should a true Believer act in daily life? What does it really mean to be a believer? Do you follow the teachings of Christ, loving God and neghbor to the best of your ability? Do you help the poor? Do you evangelize? You
say you pray for others. What is required of the believer?

This was gifted to me at the time of personal faith in Christ. I don’t need to pray for what I already have.I don’t ask Him to forgive me, I readily acknowledge my sins and I thank Him that He has forgiven me through Jesus Christ; that He paid my debt in full (Col. 2:13-14), and at the time of faith in Christ I received forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38). I walk by faith in God’s Word:Eph 1:7 “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace…”

Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."This is what being “saved” is, Tom, according to the Scriptures.

you know, Moon, I hope you eventually come to understand that you are misreading St. Paul whe he talkes about forgiveness of sin. It is true that you are forgiven all prior sins when you are baptized into the faith. But it is never stated that future sins are foregiven. In fact you quote Colossians twice above, yet you missed this important point which was between your two quotes in the epistle Colossians 1:
21 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds
22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him,
23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.
Notice, you must persevere. Its not that one time belief is sufficient for heaven.

 

[moondweller]

Moon,

From a practical perspect, how should a true Believer act in daily life? What does it really mean to be a believer? Do you follow the teachings of Christ, loving God and neghbor to the best of your ability? Do you help the poor? Do you evangelize? You
say you pray for others. What is required of the believer?

All of the above to the best of their ability, as God provides. But primarily to walk/live by faith.Rom 1:16-17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous shall live by faith.”"

you know, Moon, I hope you eventually come to understand that you are misreading St. Paul whe he talkes about forgiveness of sin. It is true that you are forgiven all prior sins when you are baptized into the faith. But it is never stated that future sins are foregiven.

The Word of God puts no such restriction on forgiveness. ALL of our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), hence He has forgiven us (who have believed) "all our transgressions.“Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,”

In fact you quote Colossians twice above, yet you missed this important point which was between your two quotes in the epistle Colossians 1:
21 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds
22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him,
23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.
Notice, you must persevere. Its not that one time belief is sufficient for heaven.

In context, perseverance there is a manifestation of true faith, not a condition for the forgiveness of sins or one’s salvation. Salvation and divine forgiveness (of sins) are based on what Christ DID, not what we do - according to the Scriptures.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Moon,

So you agree that we are called to walk/live by Faith. Doesn’t this mean that we are to follow Jesus’ examples of morality (like those espoused in the Sermon on the Mount)?

Quote:
you know, Moon, I hope you eventually come to understand that you are misreading St. Paul whe he talkes about forgiveness of sin. It is true that you are forgiven all prior sins when you are baptized into the faith. But it is never stated that future sins are foregiven

Sure it does. In your example above, you note that you must live by faith. If you do so, you will not sin. Sin is inconsistent with true faith. And if you sin, you fall from Grace.

Quote:
In fact you quote Colossians twice above, yet you missed this important point which was between your two quotes in the epistle Colossians 1:

Lets use your nomenclature. perseverance is a manifestation of true faith. If you don’t persevere, you dont have true faith and if you don’t have true faith, you are not saved.

---

 

[Philthy]

Some, who will remain nameless, believe that a moment of faith, alone, not only “saves” you, but also guarantees your eternal destiny in Heaven.

They ignore all the verses which speak of conditions not for being “saved”, but for entering Heaven (ie the Kingdom of God) as not applying to the “believer”, or as not actually saying what they clearly say.(cf Matt 6:14)

Scripture clearly draws lines between being “saved” and “inheriting the kingdom of God” (cf 1Cor 6:9, Eph 5:5, Gal 5:20).

When pressed on whether our actions during this life have eternal consequences, they will emphatically insist that yes, they do, but not with respect to salvation itself. The eternal consequence is that your rewards in Heaven are less.

When pressed to commit to whether the experience of Heaven with fewer rewards is actually worse than the experience with more rewards, they will equivocate, rendering the “consequence” one they cant even articulate.

When questioned why so much of Scripture would be directed at the “loss of rewards” if, in fact, it were not something serious, they will offer nothing except, of course, that “salvation is by faith alone” returning to the stumbling block once more.

Been here and done this several times…and then a few more times.

Blessings!

 

[bona_fides_1]

UNPACKING THE BIBLICAL IF’s

MD’s entire personal religion is based on one top level scripture verse:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

If MD had it his way - the rest of the bible (about 35,000+ other verses) could all be tossed away since MD has found one single verse to hang his hat on for all eternity.

Apart from mocking common sense and Divine Revelation by elevating one verse over all others to imply that God is superfluous and frivolous and his valuing less than ALL of what God says[sup]1[/sup] the major problem with this is MD does not even know what “belief” means. The second big problem is there are over 1,500 other conditional verses in the bible that contain the word “if”. This does not even include the implicit “conditionals” given in softer language constructs such as “unless you eat of the bread of life you have no life in you,”

A SAMPLE OF COVENANTAL EXCEPTION CLAUSES
(better have a good attorney/advocate when Satan confronts you on these MD)
*
Matthew 4:4 [sup]1[/sup] Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone,** but on every word **that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus said: “For **if **you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

Matthew 17:20 Jesus said: “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, **if ** you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Matthew 21:22 Jesus said: “If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

John 8:31 Jesus said: “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.”

John 8:51 Jesus said: “I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

John 11:40 Jesus said: “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”

John 13:35 Jesus said: "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

John 14:15 Jesus said: “If you love me, you will obey what I command.”

John 15:6-7 Jesus said: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. if you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.”

John 15:10 Jesus said: “If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.”

John 15:14 Jesus said: “You are my friends if you do what I command.”

Romans 8:31 “If God is for us, who can be against us?”

Romans 10:9 “…**if you confess **with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’, and **believe in your heart **that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

1 Corinthians 15:2 “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

1 Corinthians 16:22 "If anyone does not love the Lord – a curse be on him."

2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!”

Revelation 22:18-19 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
THE NT HAS ALL MANNER OF CONDITIONALS IN IT MD!!

MD, here are some verses I suggest that YOU contemplate since YOU are in violation of them. Based on these MD are you sure you are really saved?

Faith Alone is refuted instantly right here:
1 Corinthians 16:22 "If anyone does not love the Lord – a curse be on him."

If you teach by faith alone with out necessity to obey then you are being unbiblical and saying we need not love The Lord.

John 14:15 Jesus said: “If you love me, you will obey what I command.”

MD your belief is IN VAIN if you do not hold to ALL that Christ taught:
1 Corinthians 15:2 “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

Have you held to all Christ said 100% MD or Is your belief in vain?

MD, have you proofed your "belief"and prayed and received everything you ever prayed for? The scripture (Mat 21:22) says you will get whatever you pray for if you truly believe. If not I can see why you are set against praying…

BF

 

[moondweller]

So you agree that we are called to walk/live by Faith. Doesn’t this mean that we are to follow Jesus’ examples of morality (like those espoused in the Sermon on the Mount)?

If my eye makes me stumble I won’t pluck it out. Nor will I cut off my arm if it does the same. How many eyes do you have left, Paul? How many arms?

Sure it does. In your example above, you note that you must live by faith. If you do so, you will not sin. Sin is inconsistent with true faith. And if you sin, you fall from Grace.

To live by faith means I live in the Divinely revealed truth that Christ died for ALL my sins, hence, ALL my sins ARE forgiven. That through faith in Christ I’ve been, once for all, redeemed (purchased by His blood), reconciled to God (through His death), justified being my new standing before God, and gifted eternal life. It has nothing to do with living a sinless life.

Lets use your nomenclature. perseverance is a manifestation of true faith. If you don’t persevere, you dont have true faith and if you don’t have true faith, you are not saved.

Do you define perseverance as living sinlessly? To “fall from grace” is to think you can be justified by works. True faith believes God’s Word where it says:Rom. 3:23-24"…all sinned and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"That’s GRACE, Paul. It’s what God does through Christ.

 

[moondweller]

UNPACKING THE BIBLICAL IF’s

MD’s entire personal religion is based on one top level scripture verse:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Do you believe what that verse says, BF? Or do you consider it BS?

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Do you believe what that verse says, BF? Or do you consider it BS?

We could see that Christ said “Anyone who believes shall not perish, but will have eternal life”, so what is believe? What is the right definition of believe? It couldn’t be just acknowledge Jesus as the eternal Savior, that would be contradicting to what He said: “Not everyone who call me Lord, Lord shall go into heaven”, this is where Fundamentalist Christians got in trouble with, what is the meaning of belief?

 

[placido]

I’m still here. I didn’t instantly leave this world at the time of my salvation, by grace through faith. I pray for the salvation of others, that they might turn from their unbelief to belief; for other believers going through hard times; missionaries and other Christian ministries; for government officials; for myself that I may continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of my Lord and Savior. There are many things to pray about, Tom, but my own salvation is not one of them.

That proves beyond doubt that you are not a Christian. Unlike the apostles you “don’t ask Him to forgive” your sins like the manner jesus taught the apostles to pray:
“When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread and ** forgive us our sins ** for we ourselves forgive everyone in debt to us, and do not subject us to the final test.”
Moondweller – once again – disregards Christ’s teaching by never ever praying for the forgiveness of his own sins.
It is now clear: Moondweller is not a Christian at all.

Placido

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
So you agree that we are called to walk/live by Faith. Doesn’t this mean that we are to follow Jesus’ examples of morality (like those espoused in the Sermon on the Mount)?

So your problem here is not unlike the rest of your theological issues. If you don’t understand a verse because it conflicts with your own pre-coceived notion of theology or morality, you just disregard it. This particular quote from Matthew 5 was in regards to adultery and lust:
27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna
He’s explaining the seriousness of these sins. But you surely can stop lusting with your eyes / right hand without resorting to self mutilation. But if you can’t, self mutilization is better than spending an eternitiy in hell. Why can’t you understand this.

Quote:
Sure it does. In your example above, you note that you must live by faith. If you do so, you will not sin. Sin is inconsistent with true faith. And if you sin, you fall from Grace.

You’ve peiced together a bunch of buzz words in a way never to be found in scripture. but what does it really mean, You live in the revealed truth that Christ Died for all your sins… What does it mean to live that way? How do you act diferently from anyone else with this realization? All I get out of this is that you arrogantly believe that no matter what you do, you will go to heaven, just because you believe it to be true.

Quote:
Lets use your nomenclature. perseverance is a manifestation of true faith. If you don’t persevere, you dont have true faith and if you don’t have true faith, you are not saved.

We both know that you had to alter what scripture really says to make your point. Isn’t that a bit dishonest, mostly to your self but also to anyone that reads it.

Here’s the whole verse for camparison:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets,
22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.
24 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,
26 through the forbearance of God–to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

Note, it does not say we sin continuously, as you added this in yourself and it also says that it is for the forgiveness of sins previously committed. You not only motified a partial quote to make it say what you wanted it to say, but you eliminated the part about forgiveness of sins previously committed which completely contradicts your once saved, always saved theology.

Who are you kidding at this point? Don’t you value your own soul?
.

 

[paul_c]

That proves beyond doubt that you are not a Christian. Unlike the apostles you “don’t ask Him to forgive” your sins like the manner jesus taught the apostles to pray:
“When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread and ** forgive us our sins ** for we ourselves forgive everyone in debt to us, and do not subject us to the final test.”
Moondweller – once again – disregards Christ’s teaching by never ever praying for the forgiveness of his own sins.
It is now clear: Moondweller is not a Christian at all.

Placido

No, Placido, you are wrong. Moondweller is a Christian. He believes much of what we believe. But he unfortunately, also has some serious misunderstandings of true Christian theology and of course, he ignores Christian morality completely, at least in rhetoric if not in practice. Moondweller has serious passion on his side. he will be a lot like St. Paul, who he values so highly. Paul also had some serious misunderstandings about Jesus and the Church he founded. But once those misunderstandings were cleared up, Paul became a great evangelist for the church. Moondweller will be too, if he ever allows the Truth in. He’s been here a long time so hopefully the Spirit will eventually move him …

 

[bona_fides_1]

Do you believe what that verse says, BF? Or do you consider it BS?

Did you read anything I said? YOU do NOT understand the full sense of scripture. You CAN NOT cherry pick single versus to the exclusion of others. You MUST make them all work MD. You must live by EVERY WORD of God not just your favorite words of Gods. Clearly there is a contradiction between what you belive and what God has told us. The big hint here is its’ YOU that’s the problem and I suspect its because you don’t really know what the word “belief” means nor the conditionals that are attached to it. Christ gives us all kinds of texts to show us what belief means and you want to ignore them.

At this point I feel a moral obligation to warn you that you have entered into a willful state of malicious ignorance. The evidence is very clear - you are ignoring every single Catholic apologist’s words to you and blowing off everything we tell you. This INTENSIFIES your culpability for ignorance since you are using supine and specious reasoning to duck knowing the truth. You have been exposed too way too much now MD. You have what we call “studied ignorance”. You are belligerently arguing against all reason just to be stubborn and belligerent. Studied ignorance can increase culpability for a sin, especially if it displays hardness of heart, whereby one would commit the sin irrespective of any law that might exist concerning it. Such an attitude shows contempt for moral law and so increases culpability (so says CCC 1859).

Further you are reducing the Word of God by ignoring so much scripture to make your solo out of context verses support your own private religion that you are now into grave matter IMHO (read the Revelation scripture warning).

MD - its time to stop playing “ignorant” - its not fooling anyone. You are being stubborn at this point. God help you if you lead others astray with your new gospel teachings…

BF

 

[placido]

I “accept” all the teachings of Christ. But not ALL His teachings directly apply to me.

Which ones? No, wait … Moondweller is gonna give some examples shortly.

TWB, how many of your eyes have you plucked out? How many arms cut off?

Did Jesus mean literal eyes and literal arms? How do you know that?

No, I don’t believe He suffered the cross “SO THAT” men can “keep on sinning.”

Jesus did not suffer the corss ** so that ** men can ** keep sinning **. He suffered the cross so that those who repent of their sins can be forgiven. And sins need to be forgiven exactly because unforgiven sins lead to eternal punishment. That is contrary to your theology according to which sinners are not punished.

I believe He went to the cross to cancel out the debt (Col. 2:13-14), so that through faith in Him men would receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43; 13:38)

Why waste time with the forgiveness of sins if sins – according to your strange theology – have no concquences at all?

placido

 

[catholic1seeks]

Man, I feel so bad for not keeping up with this thread, and I really do not feel like reading all 13 pages! And it already has over 2,000 views.

Wow!

I’m asking a big favor of y’all: can you briefly summarize what we’re currently talking about? What is it?

Thanks

 

[placido]

No, Placido, you are wrong. Moondweller is a Christian. He believes much of what we believe. But he unfortunately, also has some serious misunderstandings of true Christian theology and of course, he ignores Christian morality completely, at least in rhetoric if not in practice. Moondweller has serious passion on his side. he will be a lot like St. Paul, who he values so highly. Paul also had some serious misunderstandings about Jesus and the Church he founded. But once those misunderstandings were cleared up, Paul became a great evangelist for the church. Moondweller will be too, if he ever allows the Truth in. He’s been here a long time so hopefully the Spirit will eventually move him …

He may be a Christian through baptism. He may “believe” what we believe but in practice he rejects Christ.

1. He considers himself saved and he says the apostles were saved too.
2. Christ taught the apostles how to pray (inluding praying for forgiveness); Moondweller rejects that out right.
   I will have to try and figure out how one who rejects Christ’s teaching can be a Christian.

placido

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bona fides
UNPACKING THE BIBLICAL IF’s

So, Moondweller, Do you believe that all scripture is God breathed and therefore true?

If your answer is yes, then you need to be able to reconcile every scriptural passage with every other one, right? And that’s the rub. This is very easy for Catholics to do, because scripture is based on Catholic Tradition and is completely consistent with Catholic theology.

Lets use John 3: 16, which you quoted above. and this verse:
2Romans:5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness

So how do you reconcile those two verses? We would reconcile it by saying that those that believe in Jesus, will follow him and that means to do his works.

 

[paul_c]

He may be a Christian through baptism. He may “believe” what we believe but in practice he rejects Christ.

1. He considers himself saved and he says the apostles were saved too.
2. Christ taught the apostles how to pray (inluding praying for forgiveness); Moondweller rejects that out right.
   I will have to try and figure out how one who rejects Christ’s teaching can be a Christian.

placido

He doesn’t reject ALL of Christ’s teachings. He’s not a Catholic (yet). that is clear, so where he differs from the Church he is in error. But he is still believes strongly in Christ’s divinity and the saving power of the cross, this is also clear. This is to be respected.