Faith alone or not?

[GreggAlvarez]

I really do not get it. Where the Catholic Church is literal, Protestants read non-literal and vice-versa. We only agree in certain things. But the Catholic Church teaches that 1000 years in Revelations is probably not literal (in accord with 1000 years is like a day and a day is like a 1000 years) but Protestants say Rapture and stuff. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is literal with “This is my body… This is my blood…” but Protestants say Jesus did not mean it literally. In Ephesians 2:10, it says we are made through Christ FOR good works and the Catholic Church takes it literally BUT the Protestants say it is not literal. They read into it instead of out of it and make it against Church teaching. Nowhere does it remotely say what you claim it to mean.

And the Catholic Church is NOT a works-based religion. Your rigorous studies of our teachings are not very fruitful. You are VERY mistaken on the Church and its teaching. We lift our hearts to the Lord. You all lift your minds to make insults to the Church. We give Him thanks and praise. You all pray that Catholics can again become Christians. We wrote the Bible and housed it in the Church. You all took the Bible, subtracted from it and used it against the Church. We call ourselves all sinners. You all call yourselves saints. We call Church the pillar and bulwark of the Truth. You all call it the Whore of Babylon. We believe (transcending all knowledge) the Pope is our Holy Father. You call him the Anti-Christ. We say Mary is Mother of God. You all say she is only the Mother of Jesus, the Man. We say He was literal in meaning, “This is my Body.” You all say He meant to add, “Wait! Do not leave! I only meant it symbolically!” We submit to the authority given as a gift from God to the Church. You submit to the authority of your local preacher. We say, “If God can create a universe through a Word, He can certainly do anything.” You all limit His omnipotence to miracles of seeing Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich. We say God gave the Church authority. You all say He cannot do that. We say God can make eternal Jesus’ Death, Resurrection and Ascension in the miracle of the Eucharist at the Mass. You all say He cannot do that. We believe God can use the nature He created as useful to the attainment of holiness within His people. You all say that His nature can do nothing for us. We read out of the Bible. You all read into it. We say God and His Friends (Mary, Queen of Heaven, angels, saints and martyrs) are there for us and with us. You all say God locks up the inhabitants in a vault until the Second Coming. We pray for the salvation of all people, Christians and non-Christians alike. You all pray that all non-Christians (including Catholics) go to hell.

It is not fun when I critique an entire population off of what I have observed in my Protestant brethren and what other Catholics claim to have observed or read. I do not think all this is true for most of them. I have just observed it as a former atheist and notice it even more as a Catholic, obviously. The difference between me and you is that I know I am wrong with these statements and you think you are right with yours. We do trust in God alone which is contrary to your cross-analysis of us. We only trust the Church because God in the Flesh gave the authority to the Church. I am a Christian. I know you are too. We believe more than you think and more than you do that Christ’s one-time Redemption of His flock is complete. We use “rituals” (whatever your idea of that may be), sacramentals, etc… to help us in our journey to be with the Source of Life, Truth and Love.

What separates the Catholic from the Bible believing Christian according to Catholic teaching is… drumroll… NOTHING! I am just talking here of simple man with a soul. Obviously, I am not talking doctrine or belief. I am just as much a sinner as the atheist. I can attest to that. And so are you. The only advantage is that we believe we have a gift. Why do you judge us? Why do you assume that what anti-Catholic whoppers say about Catholicism is true? Why do you act against Catholics how atheists do against theists? Why do you think you are better than us? Why have you not read our books, articles, sites, etc…? Why have you not taken the time to check the Faith page of this website to see what we believe and why? Why are so quick to read our doctrines and think you what it is saying? Why do you think we worship the Magisterium and not God? Why is there as much hatred for the Catholic Church as much as there was (or is) for Jesus? Why do you think Jesus cannot lead His sheep from untruth with the Holy Spirit? Do you think he meant for over 30000 denominations? Why do you think non-Christians look upon Christianity and frown because of the separation? Why would God not be able to make His Church one like Jesus prayed to His Father? Why do you not believe in the Church Triumphant, Church Militant and Church Suffering? Why do most people hate the idea of Catholicism? Why do you believe in God if you will not believe and trust Him?

I do wish that these questions are answered by non-Catholics (obviously Catholics are on the same page). I do pray that God releases you from the darkness and hatred for Catholics in your soul and make an honest attempt to learn our teachings from us and not from others. If it does not convert you when you learn them, at least you will have an open and welcoming heart for us.

 

[guanophore]

From the Biblical/Calvinistic view; justification is of grace alone by faith alone - Romans 1, 3,4, 5, 8, 10, 12, 1 Cor. 1, Phil 3.

Actually, this is one of the elements of the Apostolic faith that was retained by Calvin. It is completely Catholic. However, it was Catholic before the NT was ever written, and 1500 years before Calvin was born.

**How Justification and Sanctification Differ
**
Justification is unique from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares the “true believer” righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16). Notice how justification and sanctification are distinguishable from each other:

Actually, there is no such descriptor in the NT as “true believer”. This is a modern innovation. It was created to abrogate that it is possible to fall from grace.

This is one of the main points where Calvin departed from the Apostolic teaching, and is the root of a plethora of heresies that emanate from it.

Basically, it makes God into a liar, or an idiot, pretending that righteousness exists where in fact, it does not.

1. Justification imputes Christ’s righteousness to the sinner’s account so God sees Christ righteousness in the true believer (Romans 4:11b); sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).

Calvin invented the idea of basically doctoring the books to support the errant ideas in the TULIP. He rejected the Apostolic teaching that it is possible to fall from grace, or be “cut off” after one has been saved. But the Apostles taught that grace is infused, and that we are sanctified at the moment we are justified in baptism.

1. Justification takes place outside sinners and changes their standing before God (Romans 5:1-2, sanctification is internal and changes the believer’s state, the way one lives before God (Romans 6:19).

Such a notion about justification is a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

1. Justification is an event, sanctification a lifelong process, which conforms us to the image of Christ. We will never achieve this in this body of sin, but that will be the continual direction of the Christian’s life.

The idea that a person cannot dwell in a sanctified state before God is also a modern inovation. It makes the “body of sin” more powerful than the grace of God, and misleads the sheep into believing that holiness is unreachable.

I suspect many will disagree for many reasons, but this is what God has said in is holy and perfect word.

Certainly this is how you interpret what is written. But, you have departed from the Apostolic path because you have removed the NT from it’s context, which is the Catholic faith.

Hope this causes you to pause and consider what i have proclaimed in light of what Scripture teaches.

No. Done already paused, done already considered. Know I know WHY these ideas are heresies, and why it will place my soul in danger to embrace them.

 

[guanophore]

This is quite a statement, Paul.  You circumvent the cross as the Divine means for one "entering heaven."  This is, of course, quintessential Catholic, works oriented soteriology.

It is curious why it is so important to you to misrepresent the Teaching of the Catholic Church. I wonder what needs you are getting met by doing this?

What you have created here is a strawman, since the CC does not teach a “works oriented soteriology”. I will concede that you believe this (erroneously), but for some reason you refuse to accept what the Catholic Church actually believes.

Besides, there is no circumvention of the blood Jesus shed on the cross for our sins. There is no other way we can be purified, but by HIs precious blood, shed for the expiation of our sins.

The fact is that we do not separate the grace that saves us through faith from the grace that produces the works prepared for us. Grace is the only basis for our salvation. When you post lies such as you have above, you bear false witness against your neighbor.

Demonstrated by your statement:"And while he certainly taught that Grace is required and he certainly taught that Faith was required, he ALSO taught that we need to live moral lives, avoid sin, love God and Love our neighbor as ourselves."Rendering “faith” and “grace” meaningless.

No, MD. Living according to the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them does not render grace and faith “meaningless”. Such a statement indicates that you dont really understand that we are able to obey His commandments because He is at work in us to will and to do HIs good pleasure.

IOW, God saves those who meritoriously save themselves.

This is a figment of your imagination, but not any part of the Catholic faith.

I think you forget that the NT was written by the CC. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. It is the CC that teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith.

Divine mercy is God holding back all that we deserve. Divine grace is freely giving us all that we don’t deserve.“Mercy” is God sending His Son into this world as the unblemished “Lamb of God” to take away the sin of the world. “Grace” is He saving all who would believe in Him: “For BY GRACE (not mercy) you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…”

Indeed!

And we celebrate this liturgically on Divine Mercy Sunday.

 

[guanophore]

It was based on what God had revealed in the Scriptures that these men saw justification and *experiential* sanctification as separate.

No, it was based on their personal interpretations once they were separated from the Apostolic faith. There are as many interpretations of scripture as there are belly buttons. On the contrary, there is no separation between justification, sanctificationm and glorification. These are all aspects of salvation, and who God justifies he sanctifies, and who He sanctifies, He glorifies.

The words have totally different meanings. Experiential sanctification is the process by which the faithful strive to live holy lives on this earth (to the glory of Christ) while still in these yet fallen, unredeemed bodies.Gal 5:16 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”

And yet, your theology indicates that it is basically impossible to walk according to the Spirit while still in these “unredeemed bodies”. What makes you think Jesus did not redeem your body along with your soul? Don’t you know that your body is His temple?

Gal 5:16 Gal 5:25 "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."But this instruction to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh is for the SAVED whose sins are now ALL forgiven, who are now redeemed, who are now justified, who are now sanctified (eternally set apart) in the risen Christ, indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. It’s not instruction on how to be (become) saved.

It is both, since, if a saved person falls back into walking according to the flesh, he will fail to be united with his inheritance in heaven. If this were not possible, the Apostle would not be writing to BELIEVERS warning them and instructing them.

Gal 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. 8 If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9 So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up. 10 So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith.

Most Calvanists have to ignore passages like this, along with the Teachings of Jesus, to sustain their soteriology.

Gal 6:7-10

Justification, however, according to the Scriptures

Certainly according to your understanding of them. But your interpretation is a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. For us, it constitutes “a different gospel” from what was handed down to us from the Apostles.

This is neither the imaginations of men nor the word of men, but the Word of God itself.

Indeed the words are from the inerrant and inspired Holy Scriptures, written by, for, and about Catholics. Your rendering of the meaning, however, is an imagination. Not entirely your own, but one seeded about 500 years ago.

And it’s faith in His Word by which He justifies the ungodly - according to the Scriptures. Faith has an object. That object is the Word of God; both the living (Christ) and the written Word (the Scriptures).

Amen!

 

[guanophore]

Look at the text. Does it SAY anywhere there that they won’t?

1 Cor 6:7-11

7 In fact, to have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud — and believers at that.

9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers — none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

Sure seems like he is scolding believers here…

Gal 5:16-21

Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. 18 But **if you **are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here he is giving instruction to the believers…

Heb 6:11-12
11 And we want each one of you to show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope to the very end, 12 so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Why warn them about becoming sluggish, if it is not possible to do so?

Rev 3:4-5
5 **If you **conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life;

Why would Jesus talk about “not blot” if it were not possible to “blot”?

“If you” is called a conditional phrase. It means that the outcome is based on the condition.

 

[paul_c]

The works which God prepared before the foundation of the world are those which He prepared that the Christian would “walk in them”; just by that statement, the person is already a Christian, which is why the works which God recognizes, are the result of a transformed life in Christ or a result of salvation, not the means of salvation. That is a theological difference which is as far as the east is from the west. Good works are very important in the life of a Christian; it is one of the means God uses to conform the Christian closer to the image of His son and a means to glorifying God before men. Otherwise, there is no reason to be here for we will worship Him perfectly in heaven, we will fellowship with one another perfectly in heaven, we will demonstrate perfect love in heaven; all these we cannot do while on earth because of the flesh.

Calvin 95, We’re not debating whether God’s grace allows us to do good works. It does. We are also not debating whether doing good works is what God calls us to do. We both agree that it is. We are also not debating that Christians should do good Works. They should. We are also not debating whether you are saved by the grace of God, we both agree that we are. We are also not debating whether you need to have faith in Jesus to go to heaven. We agree that you do.

Where we differ is that you believe that this is all that is required, while we see that doing good works and dying in the state of Grace is also required. I’ve already shown you the scripture verses that support this view. So in the end, you think the Catholics require to much of themselves, but how can you begrudge us form doing what we believe scripture requires of us. And how could doing more be harmful in any way

You believe that those works are irrelavent to

 

[paul_c]

***“We do not require that members agree with the Catholic Church in order to participate; only that they remain charitable in their postings.”

“Apologetics - learn to respond to questions about and challenges to your Faith, including effective presentation techniques, examine historical controversies.”***

I wonder how I found this forum; just stumbled on it while looking up something that dealt with Catholic teaching and saw this and got curious. I do like the challenging questions that provoke thought and defense and therefore benefits my own searching and studying of the Scriptures. Perhaps this is God’s purpose in this for me. I cannot convert anyone; that is the sole work of God alone and He made those decisions before I was even born. Those are my thoughts on your concerns or comments.

My point wasn’t to challenge your right to be on this website. We love people like yourself on this site because our exchanges clearly highlight key theological issues and lay out the differences for all to see. My point was that you would actually achieve the goals you set out in the note above: to provoke thought , if you would actually listen to what we have to say about Catholicism instead of telling us what you think we believe. We KNOW what we believe. Let us tell you, because you obviously have many, many misconceptions of the Catholic Faith. I would also suggest to you that the goal should be to find the truth, rather than to defend what you have been taught to believe. I understand what its like to be a true believer, but you do have the power of reason. And I agree that God has a purpose for you to be on this site. It just might not be what you think it is… Let me clue you in on something. All those people whose profiles say " swam the Tiber in XX" are converts to Catholicism, many after entering this site as antagonists. The truth will set you free.

 

[guanophore]

The apostle Paul is not talking out of both corners of his mouth. He clearly said in Eph. 2:8,9 that we are saved by grace, and not of works. Yes, verse. 10 says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, but we do those works because we are already in Christ Jesus. We have already been declared righteous. We are already saved and have our names in the Lamb's Book of Life. These good works do not apply to the unsaved. Those who do not know Christ as their personal Savior. Those who are not born again.

Right. And this is what the CC believes and teaches. That is why it is written in scripture. MD misrepresents our faith. I hope you will not fall into such calumny. Maybe you will never accept that Apostolic faith from the CC, but at least I hope you can refrain from spreading lies about what we believe.

 Those who believe we are still under the law are cursed according to Paul. Works based religion is a religion that does not believe Christ atoned for all sin.

I honestly dont’ know any one who has a “works based religion”, but theoretically, I agree with what you are saying here. If such a religion existed, this would be the case.

They believe they must help Christ.

I think this is a semantics issue. You see, when Catholics think of “helping Christ”, we thnk of being joined with HIm in His sufferings.

Col 1:24-25

I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.

There is nothing lacking in Christ’s afflictions, which are all sufficient to purchase our redemption. But not all will be redeemed by them, because we need to add OURSELVES to his afflictions.

We also “help Christ” by becoming light and salt in the world. This is part of our spiritual worship.

That His sin ransom was not complete.

It is not complete for us until we add ourselves to it. He paid the price, but not all will accept the ransom and be rescued by Him.

The bottom line is that they do not trust Christ alone for their eternal salvation. They are trusting in their church and church rituals and other “works.” This is what separates the catholic from the Bible believing Christian.

I think you have a lot of misunderstandings about the Catholic faith, Yankee. I hope that you are willing to get them cleared up while you are here. If you are like MD, and insist on cliniging to your misperceptions, there will not be a lot of benefit to you being here.

Jesus is present in His Church, through the rituals He established for us, and in the works he has prepared for us before the beginning of time.

Catholics are bible believing Christians. We are just not at liberty to change the meaning of what is written so that it is no longer consistent with the faith of those who wrote it.

 

[paul_c]

I have done the research by the reading/studying of Scripture among other things and to confess to a priest you have to establish a pristhood from Scripture and you cannot do that because the New Covenant took away any priesthood that resembles the Levitical priesthood.

The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, vol 2, question 358 asks “What is a sacrifice?” Answer: “A sacrifice is the offering of a victim by a priest to God alone, and the destruction of it in some way to knowledge that he is the creator of all things.”

We cannot find anything that resemble this in Scripture, but we do find this. "The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, Do your priests die a physical death? Yes

24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since **He always lives to make intercession **for them.

Also we find this: "For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Continuing: Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

What more can be said that God has not already proclaimed and therefore it is done according to His will & purpose. Well we can go ahead and add a little more; just to bury the whole notion of the need to have Christ play the victim over and over again.

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 **Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often **since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so **Christ also, having been offered once **to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

So by faith alone we trust in His one perfect sacrafice and we trust He is seated at the right hand of God making intercession on the Christians behalf. It is by faith alone by one sacrafice on a cross nearly 2000 years ago by Jesus the Christ and savior to all who believe by His grace through faith in Jesus for HIs sake.

your premise here is based on a false assumption. The Catholic priesthood is not a continuation of the Levitical priesthood. Would you agree that Jesus set 12 men apart from all others. called them Apostles and invested them with specific power and authority? In fact, he gave one of them, Peter, the authority to run his church. (Matthew 16) and told him after the resurrection, to tend his flock (John 21). These responsibilities included administering the sacraments, healing the sick. forgiving sins, and bringing the Gospel message to all people. (Matthew 28: 18-20, John 20). Now, these men could not possibly carry out these duties by themselves for all peoples and for all time and so they appointed trusted men to extend thier reach, ordaining them and investing them with the power invested in the Apostles by Christ by the laying on of hands . Paul talks about this in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus. They were called bishops and presbyters in the early church, Presbyters has been Anglicized to priests. Have you not read these passages…

 

[Cat_Herder]

to confess to a priest you have to establish a pristhood from Scripture and you cannot do that because the New Covenant took away any priesthood that resembles the Levitical priesthood.

Yes, there is a priesthood of all believers, just as all Israel was a priesthood.
[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 19:6[/BIBLEDRB]

But Israel had a separate ministerial priesthood: the Levites.
[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 18:23[/BIBLEDRB]

So does the Church; they are called elders, presbyters or priests (same Greek root word, presbuteros). These elders are men specially called out and consecrated by the laying on of hands. Eldership is not universal but given to only a few men.
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 4:14[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 5:22[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 2:2[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Titus 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]

Continuing: Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
… Well we can go ahead and add a little more; just to bury the whole notion of the need to have Christ play the victim over and over again.

So if Jesus is the High Priest modeled after the Levites, where are the Levite-equivalent priests who serve Him? Hold that thought for a moment.

You think that because Jesus has died for you it is no longer possible for you to sin. That just isn’t so. The Bible says that deadly, or mortal, sin does exist after Calvary.

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:15-17[/BIBLEDRB]

If you sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, the Bible calls that a deadly, or mortal, sin. Not just the Church. The Bible. And the consequence?

[BIBLEDRB]Heb 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

By committing a mortal sin, you have removed yourself from the One Sacrifice of Calvary. You are in need of someone to present that One Sacrifice again on your behalf.

Let’s talk about that One Sacrifice.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 13:8[/BIBLEDRB]

Christ is slain from the foundation of the world; His One Sacrifice is outside of time. Hence, Christ’s sacifice reaches into the past. (This is why Enoch and Elijah could be saved long before Calvary.) Now let me tell you a story about two men: Cain and Melchizedek. Both of them offered fruit and grain as a sacrifice to God. Though they apparently offered the same thing, the outcome was very different.

Cain:
[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 4:2-5[/BIBLEDRB]

Melchizedek:
[BIBLEDRB]Genesis 14:16-20[/BIBLEDRB]

Why was Melchizedek’s offering acceptable, when Cain’s wasn’t? Melchizedek was in fact a precursor of Jesus Christ.
[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 7:11-17[/BIBLEDRB]

So you see that Paul, like Melchizedek and Jesus Christ Himself, offered bread and wine. Remember those words Jesus spoke at the Last Supper?
[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 11:23-26[/BIBLEDRB]

This bread and wine God the Father found acceptable, even when the same sacrifice at the hands of Cain were not. Clearly this was not the same sacrifice as Cain’s, not a mere sacrifice of fruit and grain.

Why don’t you just take Christ’s explanation: THIS [bread] IS MY BODY. The Eucharist (Lord’s Supper) is Calvary. They are one and the same Sacrifice.

Now… How can the Apostles be saying that it IS His Body and Blood if the Apostles are not Jesus? If the consecrated bread and wine (the Eucharist) are the body of, say, Paul rather than Jesus, well, that’s not an acceptable offering.

Answer: Because they too are priests after the order of Melchizedek. That is what they became when Jesus told them “Do this in memory of Me.” “In remembrance” or amanesis as it says in Greek does not mean what you think it means. In biblical terms it means a sacrifice:

[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 10:10[/BIBLEDRB]

Go tell a Jew that because it says “in rememberance” that the Levitical priesthood was a sham and the Temple offerings were just symbolic. Not.

Christ’s sacrifice also reaches into the future—that is, NOW. We are sanctified today by that one perfect sacrifice, 2000 years later. You will readily agree that nobody is born saved today. Some act on behalf of the sinner is required to partake of the one sacrifice of Calvary.

You say that people need faith to be saved. Hence some WORK on the part of the sinner is required–faith. But the Bible says in no uncertain terms that two other works are required: Baptism and repentance.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 2:38[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 16:16[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 20:21[/BIBLEDRB]

There is another requirement: to eat the Body and Blood of Christ.

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:54[/BIBLEDRB]

The words used in the original Greek are sarx, which means physical flesh, and “eats” (trogon) is better translated as “gnawing” or “chewing.” This is not symbolic language.

But let’s go back to Hebrews 10:

[BIBLEDRB]Heb 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

If you have sinned mortally, you need some way to have the One Sacrifice of Calvary re-applied to your sins. The Eucharist. But Paul also warned very sternly about approaching the Eucharist unworthily:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 11:27-32[/BIBLEDRB]

Hence, you must examine yourself and judge yourself before you may receive. You must be repentant. In other words, you must confess your sins.

[BIBLEDRB]James 5:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Besides telling them to confect the Eucharist, Jesus also gave the Apostles another share of His authority:

[BIBLEDRB]John 20:22-23[/BIBLEDRB]

Paul received this authority and called it the ministry of reconciliation:

[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 5:18-20[/BIBLEDRB]

Reconciliation is another name for what the Catholic Church knows as the Sacrament of Penance or Confession.

Who’s a Bible Christian now?

 

[guanophore]

Very simple according the the Holy Spirit working the the pen of the Apostle Paul.

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” - Romans 11:6

The full context would be Romans 11:1-32.

Hope that answers your question.

God bless.

No, it does not, and I will tell you why. Walking in obedience to the commandments is expected of us as Christians. We keep the commandments in the same way we were saved,by grace, through faith. Our ability to do the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them, is a work of grace (grace is the basis).

So, your answer is irrelevant, since commandment keeping for the Christian is based on grace.

I think what you and MD are trying to dodge here is open admission to the heresy that one can fall into sin, reject the grace of God, and still go to heaven. For us, falling from grace means that a person is no longer “in Christ” and therefore, lacks the state of grace necessary for salvation. Your theology allows a “saved” person to walk in abject wickedness, and still go to heaven. That is the fatal flaw.

MD, and other reformed Christians, will say that God “disciplines” such Christians, but does not deny them heaven.

On the other hand, the Apostles taught that we cannot see God without holiness, and that we must strive for this holiness.

Heb 12:14-17

Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and through it many become defiled. 16 See to it that no one becomes like Esau, an immoral and godless person, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 You know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, even though he sought the blessing with tears.

 

[guanophore]

I have done the research by the reading/studying of Scripture among other things and to confess to a priest you have to establish a pristhood from Scripture and you cannot do that because the New Covenant took away any priesthood that resembles the Levitical priesthood.

Well, speak for yourself, Calvin. Maybe YOU have to establish a preisthood from scripture, but none of the Catholic Teaching is dependent upon Scripture. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ, and was whole before a word of the NT was ever written. The doctrines she holds come from Him. The doctrines of the faith are REFLECTED in the Scriptures because the Church wrote what she believed. The One Faith of the Apostles is to be RECEIVED from those to whom it was committed,not extracted individually from the pages of a book 2000 years after the fact.

However, we do see the priesthood clearly in the scriptures. The NT reveals that the OT concealed, a priesthood of three levels, with the priesthood of all believers, a ministerial priesthood, and a High Priest. The New Covenant does not “take away” from the old, but fulfills the old. If you deny this priesthood, then you deny Christ as our Great High Priest, and the priesthood of all believers.

The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, vol 2, question 358 asks “What is a sacrifice?” Answer: “A sacrifice is the offering of a victim by a priest to God alone, and the destruction of it in some way to knowledge that he is the creator of all things.”

Such a statement reflects that you have a deficient understanding of the Passover as anamnesis.

  We cannot find anything that resemble this in Scripture,

What royal “we” is speaking here? ARe you representing all that read the scriptures with anti-Catholic glasses? It is very hard to see something when you have already made up your mind it does not exist.

but we do find this. "The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, Do your priests die a physical death? Yes

There is only one NT priesthood - the priesthood of Christ. All of us are called to participate in it. By virtue of His eternal priesthood, ours is also eternal. Since He is “alive forevermore”, then there is no death to prevent the functioning of the priesthood.

 24 but **Jesus, on the other hand**, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 **Therefore** He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God **through Him**, since **He always lives to make intercession **for them.

Indeed.

And all of us who are “in Christ” are contained in His permanent priesthood. We are a priestly people.

 Also we find this:  "For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 **who does not need daily**, like those high priests, **to offer up sacrifices**, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, **because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself**. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Perhaps you are laboring under the common misperception that Catholic priests offer new sacrifices for sins daily?

Continuing: Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

Perhaps you are trying to make the point that Jesus is not present in the tabernacles of the CC?

 **What more can be said that God has not already proclaimed and therefore it is done according to His will & purpose.**  Well we can go ahead and add a little more; just to bury the whole notion of the need to have Christ play the victim over and over again.

Calvin, you have been given some sort of misinformation about the CC. I hope that you are open minded enough to get this corrected while you are here, or are you, as has been suggested, only going to continue to tell us what you think we believe?

 

[guanophore]

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 **Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often **since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so **Christ also, having been offered once **to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

You may not realize this, but this passage, like the rest of the NT, was written by a Catholic, for Catholics, about the Catholic faith. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

The only discrepancy here is in your imagination.

 So by faith alone we trust in His one perfect sacrafice and we trust He is seated at the right hand of God making intercession on the Christians behalf.  It is by faith alone by one sacrafice on a cross nearly 2000 years ago by Jesus the Christ and savior to all who believe by His grace through faith in Jesus for HIs sake.

Yes. This is what we celebrate daily at Mass.

I am glad that your faith tradition has retained this much of the Apostolic teaching.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Non-Catholics PLEASE READ

You see, our dear non-Catholic brothers and sisters… We are not at all trying to make utter acts of hubris in saying we are right, contrary to yours in insisting that we are wrong because of your understanding of our doctrine. We have given you many verses from Scriptures (which I certainly have no ability to do but I am glad they do) that lead us to believe beyond a reasonable doubt what we believe and why. We also have given faith-illumined non-biblical reasons for believing what we believe beyond a reasonable doubt.

You cannot understand Catholic doctrine from a bias that we are wrong. Giving information that you are ex-Catholic is even worse for understanding Catholic doctrine and belief. The only way you can understand it is to erase all presuppositions and experience it. For example, the prayers (not meaning worship as most may think) to Mary, Queen of Heaven, the angels, saints and martys can give one numerous graces to the soul but a superficial idea of it would lead one to assume that we do not worship God alone (a recurrent idea in Calvin’s posts).

In arguments against us, we have the upper hand and that is not only because we have the Truth; it is because we argue from the point that we are right and you argue from a point that we are wrong. It is easier to defend what one knows than to attack what one does not know. Is this highly prideful? Probably, but I will not back down from defending the Church that Christ, God in the flesh, founded.

Christ is the Word of God that was spoken at the Creation of our universe. Christ is also the Word of God made flesh to destroy sin and death at His Death, give us a new life by “putting on Christ” in the Resurrection and instilling in us a newfound hope of being with Our Lord in the Ascension. It is also said, “Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.” With all of this, this is a reason why we hold Sacred Tradition as oral (Christ spoke and is the Word spoken at Creation) and written (Christ is the Scriptures and written in the Scriptures). Also, these (I am sure there are plenty more than I stated) are reasons why the Bible is only part of the Ultimate Picture (Christ), my friends.

You may want to ask yourself what a Christian is. Jesus is the Truth. Nothing He said was untruth, written and non-written. This is another reason why we believe (transcending knowledge) we have the Truth; that is, because we take Christ as much much more than some mysterious Man in a book, or rather a compilation of books, compiled by the Church several centuries later. This is our theology (with a little philosophy) of Him. This is why I keep saying you trivialize, because you fail to see the Man beyond the Bible. Is this trivializing the Bible? Certainly not. I am saying that the Bible is a gift from God, but not the ONLY gift from God as a source of Truth. That Source is God Himself through His Apostles.
Truth is much more than you take it to be and much more than we can ever know.

Do not inherently tell us that you know more about our belief and doctrine than we do. Do not give the false sense of charity of praying for all religions when you are ready to attack without premise. Do not tell us that we cannot prove what you think we cannot prove.

In addition to all the Bible verses and reasons my Catholic brothers have given, I offer here what my tiny brain can offer which is eclipsed by what they said.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (disciple of St. John, the Gospel writer) says, “Wherever Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.” Wherever Truth (Life, Love, Mercy, etc…) is, there is the Catholic Church. Somebody has to proclaim the Truth and that Truth is Christ. There is plenty of evidence to give one certitude that that somebody is the Catholic Church.

 

[yankee_drifter]

I would agree with you that Paul doesn’t talk ou of both sides of his mouth. He says we are saved by Grace, yes. and faith, yes, but also works:
Romans 2: 5-10 is unmistakeable:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

He’s talking abou he people who didn’t recognize the new covenant. He’s not saying that you shouldn’t follow the moral laws. In fact, in Romans 2, he says that you will be judged based on those laws whether you have been taught the 10 commandments or not because they are written on every man’s heart. (The natural law)

Well, this is a straw man if you are referring to Catholicism. first of all, we are Pelagians. We don’t beleive that you can work your way inot heaven on your own. We believe you need God’s grace to do good works and that you get that through baptism. Jesus did atone for all men with his sacrifice.

This is laughable. You know so little about Catholic theology. We don’t help Jesus. He is all powerful afterall. We beleive we must cooperate with his grace and follow his example to get to heaven. This is not because he couldn’t take anyone he wished to heaven, its simply because he wants us to chose life.
yankee_drifter;7204126:

That His sin ransom was not complete. [/qupte] Sure it was complete. It earned salvation for all those that desire it and follow Christ. But it didn’t ransom those that simply say they believe and don;t live out their faith.

Sure we trust him. he said in Matthew 19 that if we follow the commandments, we will have eternal life.

We do trust in the Church commissioned by Christ and we believe the sacraments provide grace as Jesus told us they would.

Absolutely. you deny the sacraments, you deny the unity of the church.

You do believe that you must help Jesus by claiming his sacrifice and atonement was not complete or sufficient, thereby you are still trying to gain entrance to heaven through your church and church works.

What did Jesus say was required for heaven? What is the work of God that we must do? Jesus said: This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29) The people who were asking Jesus what shall they do that they may do the work of God, were looking for something “to do”. Some way to please God through works.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

You do believe that you must help Jesus by claiming his sacrifice and atonement was not complete or sufficient, thereby you are still trying to gain entrance to heaven through your church and church works.

What did Jesus say was required for heaven? What is the work of God that we must do? Jesus said: This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29) The people who were asking Jesus what shall they do that they may do the work of God, were looking for something “to do”. Some way to please God through works.

Note: My capitalizations or not meant for yelling. I mean them for exaggeration of content.

NO! THAT IS WRONG! THAT IS NOT WHAT WE BELIEVE! How many times do we have to say it until you believe that you are not right with what we believe? I will say it again. YOU ARE WRONG! Stop thinking that you know what we believe because you are WRONG! Nobody “gains” or “earns” entrance into heaven. We believe it it is more complete than you and your friends can even imagine. God makes Jesus’ act eternal in the Mass. You only see it as an event 2000 years ago. We cannot help Jesus. That would be claiming that He was not God and hence cannot consider ourselves Christian. Read my last post (#493). I am tired of people thinking they know more about what we believe than us. PLEASE STOP! Thank you kindly.

Gregg

 

[Cat_Herder]

[Romans 2: 5-10]
…
He’s talking abou he people who didn’t recognize the new covenant.

All men means all men. Or are you ready to accept the Immaculate Conception?

You do believe that you must help Jesus by claiming his sacrifice and atonement was not complete or sufficient, thereby you are still trying to gain entrance to heaven through your church and church works.

And you are STILL confusing the One Sacrifice with each individual’s partaking of Calvary. No one is born saved, you say, for they must have faith to be saved. FAITH IS A WORK.

What did Jesus say was required for heaven? What is the work of God that we must do? Jesus said: This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (John 6:29) The people who were asking Jesus what shall they do that they may do the work of God, were looking for something “to do”. Some way to please God through works.

That is not all that Jesus said on that topic and you know it.

 

[yankee_drifter]

All men means all men. Or are you ready to accept the Immaculate Conception?

And you are STILL confusing the One Sacrifice with each individual’s partaking of Calvary. No one is born saved, you say, for they must have faith to be saved. FAITH IS A WORK.

Very true, no one is born saved. We are lost sinners. Our most righteous acts are filthy rags to God. You must be born again or you cannot see the kingdom of God.

What works do you believe God requires of you? Where in the bible is the list of requirements? Where do we see penance? Man as Mediator? Resurrecting the priesthood? Etc Etc. These are works of men. God never asked any of it. He asks only that we accept His Son. Believe on His Son, Confess with our mouths that the Son Is Lord, admit we are sinners and take up our cross and follow Him. Not rules, rites, rituals, a list of do’s and don’ts. That’s what the priests and pharisees failed to understand. The Pharisees loved the law. They burdened the people with their list of do’s and don’ts. And every time Jesus corrected them.

Nowhere do we read in Scriptures that faith is a WORK.

The apostle Paul said if its by works, then it is no more of grace.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Very true, no one is born saved. We are lost sinners. Our most righteous acts are filthy rags to God. You must be born again or you cannot see the kingdom of God.

What works do you believe God requires of you? Where in the bible is the list of requirements? Where do we see penance? Man as Mediator? Resurrecting the priesthood? Etc Etc. These are works of men. God never asked any of it. He asks only that we accept His Son. Believe on His Son, Confess with our mouths that the Son Is Lord, admit we are sinners and take up our cross and follow Him. Not rules, rites, rituals, a list of do’s and don’ts. That’s what the priests and pharisees failed to understand. The Pharisees loved the law. They burdened the people with their list of do’s and don’ts. And every time Jesus corrected them.

Nowhere do we read in Scriptures that faith is a WORK.

The apostle Paul said if its by works, then it is no more of grace.

Again… You laughably fail to understand what the Church teaches. Apparently, you had missed a MAJOR biblical part on your non-existent “list of do’s and don’t’s”… I will let you figure that one out. God Himself asks that we do penance. God requires us to love Him, ourselves and others (works). There is no “list of requirements” just like there is not a list of food to eat to survive. If you want to call it “resurrecting the priesthood”, Christ did it, not men, but the Son of Man. Yes, He asks that we accept His Son. Believing in Him requires that we also believe Him.

I disagree with filthy rags. A homily here started, “God loves your soul more than the entire universe He created.” Our WORKS are more like the Earth compared to His WORKS, The Sun. We still have a purpose. God does not want filthy rags. He wants you and me. Besides, our righteous ACTS are His WORKS too.

READ POST #493 and stop thinking you know more about us than us. Go read Thomas Nagel’s “What is it like to be a bat?” and then come back and think, “Hmm… Maybe I do not know much about Catholicism after all.”

By the way, there is HUGE difference between the WORKS of the LAW and the WORKS of GRACE. Read.

 

[clmowry]

The apostle Paul said if its by works, then it is no more of grace.

Yeah, you keep saying that…

Philippians 2:12-13* “*12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.”

Chuck