Faith alone or not?

[Pax]

That would be fine except one thing; you can’t use James as teaching that it is not by faith alone because James is teaching that true faith RESULTS, RESULTS, RESULTS in good works God prepared beforehand for the WHO? The Christian, which means one must already be saved to be a Christian in the first place. By WHAT? Gace! Through what? Faith! In Whom? JESUS CHRIST! Why? His glory alone.

So one could debate your ideaology all day long and it would not change what Scripture teaches. I used Jesus very words to prove the point; do you not believe what the Savior has said?

Catholic teaching on Salvation in a nutshell; one must be righteous BEFORE one can be saved, because the error of blending justification into and with sanctification, contrary to what I posted by the very words of the ONLY one who can save anybody, GOD.

Calvin 95 in Christ,

You are partially correct about James in that he is not talking about works and justification at the moment in time when God gratuitously gives us his grace to believe and we are simultaneously made a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared before hand that we should walk in them. James is, however, speaking of justification and he quite clearly says so throughout chapter 2 of his letter.

Please note that James never says what you’ve said. You “claim” that "James is teaching that true faith RESULTS, RESULTS, RESULTS in good works", but he never says or implies such a thing. Instead, the apostle says this:

James 2:21-22
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,

The apostle says quite clearly that works justify. He also says that faith is completed by works. He does not say what you say in claiming that “faith results in works.” Notice the apostle’s language versus your language. They are both quite different and they mean entirely different things.

When James speaks of justification by works and not faith alone, he is speaking of justification in the life of the Christian, and without works your faith is not complete and that it will not save you. James is very clear in all of this, and it is for this reason that he says in verse 24 that:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You are probably correct on one other thing. Yes, we might very well discuss this “all day long” and you could well remain unconvinced. That having been said, anyone that followed the discussion would clearly see that my presentation would strictly adhere to the logic and language of the apostle while yours did not.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

Catholic teaching on Salvation in a nutshell; one must be righteous BEFORE one can be saved, because the error of blending justification into and with sanctification, contrary to what I posted by the very words of the ONLY one who can save anybody, GOD.

Calvin 95 in Christ,

Please show me in Catholic teaching that “one must be righteous BEFORE one can be saved.”

I mentioned in an earlier post that you did not know or understand Catholic teaching. This example further demonstrates the point. Please don’t make these kinds of statements…you waste everyone’s time.

You also accuse us of an “error in blending justification into and with sanctification.” In light of your prior remarks in that same post in quite clear that you are misrepresenting the Church’s teaching on the relationship of justification and sanctification. On that point I will simply ask you to keep studying.

Now for a question. Do you believe that we are saved only in justification or do you believe that sanctification is also “necessary” for salvation?

God bless.

 

[moondweller]

I have to say MD, you are a warrior! I am up for the battle however, and your spin won’t save you in this one (pun intended!)…
Lets see…ummm they were members of the churches at Corinth(1:2),Those who were seeking to be justified by law? No! They were in the region of Galatia.

they were children of God through faith in Christ(3:26)

 

[Calvin_95]

You seem to have so many misunderstandings about the Catholic faith.

Shh to my understanding is the thread is about Faith alone or not and the Catholic faith denies this truth in spite of the overwhelming evidence in Scripture as has been presented throughout the thread; but hey to each is own destiny. Nope; that is wrong, to each is the destiny to which God chooses. Thank God He is driving.

God can save whoever He wants, however He wants. He has made us very great and precious promises that no one will snatch us out of His hand. Do you not believe this? What makes you think Catholics don’t?

Problem: God can only save man through the blood of the Son; not anyway He wants or else God changes and cannot be trusted and He does not change; so the only way one is saved is by Grace through faith in Christ ALONE, ALone, & alone.

God chooses to work through humans to bring about salvation. He doesn’t “have to”, He wanted to. When Paul says “I become all things to all men that by all means I might save some”, he certainly does not mean that he saves them. He is aware that, when he makes himself available to God, God can work through him to bring about salvation in others.

So much for the idea that Peter can forgive sins or any other Apostle because the very forgiveness of sins, which removes the deserved penalty of those sins, is by God alone and as you have rightly alluded to indirected it is Paul doing whatever he can to be used by God to give the MESSAGE that God uses to save, the Gospel. Please share with the rest. You almost sounded like a Protestant here.

Yes, you are wrong. I just don’t place those kinds of limits on the King of the Universe. Since appearing here on earth is a manifestation in the space time continuum, and He exists outside and beyond it, I do not believe He is bound by the physical laws of the universe.

That’s good because God the Son and God the Father imposed limits onto themselves and He said He is seated at the right hand to make intercession for His own and until the Father makes all His enemies as a footstool. So who has the authority and power to bring Christ down?

Good! Then you can admit that there is not a “new sacrifice” every time we have Mass. Instead, we participate in the once for all sacrifice of Christ on Calvary.

You believe you participate; that is different because i would ask the question how do you know? Where is it written? How could you possibly bear anything that deals with the wrath of God? I won’t get into the literal eating of Christ; there are so many assumptions that have to be made that are not in Scripture one would literally have to create a revision of the Bible to make Christ a door, a shepherd of sheep, a wellspring and a whole host of other things to take your interpretation literally as opposed the actual context, which id figuratively looking at the cross and do this in remembrance and what did they really do, ate bread, the drinking of wine was added later.

Jesus sacrifice is finished. What we “add” to it is ourselves. Our work is not finished.

Apparently it is not fnished since everyone keeps going to the buffet for more. There you go adding works to your salvation.

Indeed it is a painful amanuensis at times, especially when I am keenly aware of my own sins that drove the nails into His flesh. I don’t think it is possible to understand the Eucharistic celebration apart from the Passover.

Bad theology; you had nothing to do with the cross, nothing, the romans, nor the Jews; God was pleased to “CRUSH” His Son; it was God the Father that put Him on that cross; not you.

There are some aspects of salvation that are passed (once for all). There are some that are still being “worked out” and there are some that do not come in this life. This is the Apostolic concept of salvation, past, present, and future. Calvin decided to truncate it, and separate sanctification and glorification from justification. It served his purpose in being able to found a new church according to his own standards.

As opposed to blending into a crock pot? 1) Saved = justification, 2) being saved = sanctification, 3) will be saved = redemption. You precepts are you must have all 3 completed, be righteous before you are saved contrary to the very words of the only One who can save a sinner and therefore what gospel is this? Tell me the good news here? You would need a safety net with this theology and you would never know if you were ever saved because how would you know when you were credited with His righteousness? According to Scripture it is at the moment one truly believes in His heart the gospel according to Scripture…

Yes. And that Christ commanded us “unless you eat my Body, and drink my Blood, you have no life within you”, and we obey Him.

Problem: this verse has nothing to do with the Lord’s Supper; completely out of context - not a good thing to twist the Scripture in such a manner especially since Jesus states exactly what He meant later on, which is a spiritual meaning using a carnal example as He often did. And if I recall correctly He specifically stated the “flesh profits nothing”; just for those who might be confused.

Yes, this is what we believe. This is why, when you call our obedience in them “works based” we get confused. For us, we are only doing that which is our duty.

Problem: you are not telling the truth here about your practices; you work the Sacrament in the hopes of adding a meritorious grace, which there is no such animal in human terms since there is nothing good in us to merit anything and left to ourselves we would never turn to God (Romans 3).

Maybe you can explain to us how it is possible for a person to fall from that upon which they were never resting?

What; got to be more specific.

 

[Pax]

Shh to my understanding is the thread is about Faith alone or not and the Catholic faith denies this truth in spite of the overwhelming evidence in Scripture as has been presented throughout the thread.

Calvin 95 in Christ,

You have failed to present any credible evidence from scripture that we are justified by faith alone. You have been shown, however, that there is only one place in scripture where the words faith and alone are used together. That verse is in James Chapter 2 and it, quite clearly and irrefutably, denies your position. James with great clarity and simplicity states:

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

God bless.

 

[ignatius777]

Calvin 95 in Christ,

You have failed to present any credible evidence from scripture that we are justified by faith alone. You have been shown, however, that there is only one place in scripture where the words faith and alone are used together. That verse is in James Chapter 2 and it, quite clearly and irrefutably, denies your position. James with great clarity and simplicity states:

God bless.

This is followed up by Paul saying we should work out our salvaton with fear and trembling. Those are funny words for someone who is ceratin they are saved to be using. Maybe protestants today are more certain of their salvation then Paul was.

 

[Pax]

Right you are Ignatius. Paul also includes this remark in his 1st letter to the Corinthians:

1 Cor 4:4-5
I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

God bless.

 

[Philthy]

You don’t comprehend what you read. I, in fact, said they did hear it. What they did not do is BELIEVE it. But instead they sought to be justified by the principle of law (works).Those that were seeking instead to be justified by law never believed.

This remains your unsubstantiated claim - that they never “believed” the gospel Paul preached to them. But where is your proof? Nowhere. It certainly isn’t recorded in Scripture that they never believed. In fact, there are all the indications that the first time Paul preached to them they believed, repented, received the spirit, etc etc. What leads you to believe that they never believed? Context? Hardly. It is your theology that true believers can’t “fall from true faith” that leads you - requires you - to believe that they were never “true believers”. The text is clear however - they fell from belief and the righteousness that comes from faith into a form of works gospel where circumcision was required. They submitted “again” to the “yoke of slavery”. How could they submit to it “again” if they had not freed themselves from it? They couldn’t. They were true believers all right. They broke away from the yoke of the law by grace through faith in Christ. And then guess what happened? They turned to a different gospel and by their actions (trying to be justified by circumcision) they “fell from grace” which resulted in them being “separated” from Christ (they were formerly united to Christ). That is what the text of Holy Writ reveals. Your repeated claim that they were not “true believers” remains a prejudice you introduce into the text - apparently to justify your theology. And it remains very clear how much your theology dictates your ability to read Scripture for what it says. There is nowhere that it is even hinted at that those Galatians who were seeking to be justified by circumcision didn’t believe the gospel initially presented to them by Paul. They were true believers who “turned to a different gospel”, fell from grace and became “separated from Christ”.

To “fall from grace” means after having heard the gospel of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ one instead seeks to be justified by the principle of law (works).

No MD, that is REJECTING grace, not FALLING FROM IT. They were already fallen prior to hearing the gospel, but they were not in a state of grace. The only way to fall from grace is to be under grace and to then no longer be under grace. You are attempting to force a meaning on the term “fall from” that simply doesnt exist. Why would you do that?

Such a one has been “severed from Christ,” meaning Christ is of absolutely no benefit to him (Gal. 5:1-5)."

Again, no. All those who are not Christian are not in Christ and they never were. It is impossible for them to be “severed from” Christ unless they were once united to Christ.

This is what was happening in those churches in the region of Galatia. And Paul’s letter was sent there to curtail the spread of that “leaven” (Gal. 5:9) Lest it permeate throughout all the churches of that region.

Why? What - exactly - would happen to the churches of that region if that leaven spread? Would the actions of men spreading a false gospel alter those who are “predestined” for salvation? Y or N Can the actions of men alter the will of God? Y or N?

Blessings!

 

[ncgolf]

you would never know if you were ever saved because how would you know when you were credited with His righteousness? According to Scripture it is at the moment one truly believes in His heart the gospel according to Scripture.

Where does Scripture point to believing in one’s heart?

Why all the stuff about truly believing in order to be a true believer? I don’t ever recall truly believing to be a scriptual term. Is just believing enough?

Again I asked before a scenario concerning a believer and non-believer, one being a credited righteous fornicator and one not. Please explain sin, it’s effect and who is saved in this context? Did the believer sin? Did the non-believer sin? Is there punishment or should there be punishment for this? Who receives this punishment? Does repentance factor into this?

These are real life questions to real life situations … does your theology apply to real life?

And don’t say a believer can’t do this … Moon disagrees with you.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Problem: God can only save man through the blood of the Son; not anyway He wants or else God changes and cannot be trusted and He does not change; so the only way one is saved is by Grace through faith in Christ ALONE, ALone, & alone.

You correctly note that God cannot change (Malachi 3:3-6). So when He instituted the Passover as a perpetual ordinance—it is forever binding.

[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 12:14[/BIBLEDRB]

You have never celebrated the Passover.

You will say that Calvary has replaced the Passover. How so? We’ll find out.

You believe you participate; that is different because i would ask the question how do you know? Where is it written? How could you possibly bear anything that deals with the wrath of God?

The Holy Spirit by the Prophet Malachi:

[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]

The only clean oblation/pure offering that has ever existed, or ever will exist, is Christ. How is Christ offered in every place, at every time, by every person?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 11:23-32[/BIBLEDRB]

Apparently it is not fnished since everyone keeps going to the buffet for more. There you go adding works to your salvation.

You have made the Passover obligation void by your human tradition. God absolutely wants us to go back for more. The Apostles went back for more every Sunday (Acts 20:7). What happens to those who do not go back for more?

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:25-27[/BIBLEDRB]

They lose their access to Calvary and so their salvation.

Bad theology; you had nothing to do with the cross, nothing, the romans, nor the Jews; God was pleased to “CRUSH” His Son; it was God the Father that put Him on that cross; not you.

Actually, (s)he did crucify Jesus. So did you. So did I. I am doing my best not to crucify Him anymore and I hope that you are too.

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 25:45[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 9:4-5[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by guanophore
You seem to have so many misunderstandings about the Catholic faith

Calvin, you and Moondweller think that everytime the word Faith is used in scripture it supports your theory that all that matters is Faith. This simply is not true. You have complete blinders on when any other requirement for salvation is discussed in scripture. We have shown you again and again and again that more is required than just Faith. Perhaps someday your eyes will be opened. For now, you are just convenient foils for us to us to demonstrate that Calvin was wrong.

Quote:
God can save whoever He wants, however He wants. He has made us very great and precious promises that no one will snatch us out of His hand. Do you not believe this? What makes you think Catholics don’t?

Who are you to put limits on God?

Quote:
God chooses to work through humans to bring about salvation. He doesn’t “have to”, He wanted to. When Paul says “I become all things to all men that by all means I might save some”, he certainly does not mean that he saves them. He is aware that, when he makes himself available to God, God can work through him to bring about salvation in others.

So much for the idea that Peter can forgive sins or any other Apostle because the very forgiveness of sins, which removes the deserved penalty of those sins, is by God alone and as you have rightly alluded to indirected it is Paul doing whatever he can to be used by God to give the MESSAGE that God uses to save, the Gospel. Please share with the rest. You almost sounded like a Protestant here.

Calvin, if only you could see these arguements through another man’s eyes…
When Peter or any of the apostles, or Catholic priests today forgive sins, they do so in the name of Jesus Christ, not on their own authority.

Quote:
Yes, you are wrong. I just don’t place those kinds of limits on the King of the Universe. Since appearing here on earth is a manifestation in the space time continuum, and He exists outside and beyond it, I do not believe He is bound by the physical laws of the universe.

No one has the authority and power to bring Christ down. Christ is with his Church for all time, as he promised. Unfortunately, you don’t seem to understand the power of God. He is everywhere at once, and Jesus is God. He is not just
sitting at the right hand of the Father. He is omnipresent.

Quote:
Good! Then you can admit that there is not a “new sacrifice” every time we have Mass. Instead, we participate in the once for all sacrifice of Christ on Calvary.

When Jesus said in John 6 that you had to eat his body and drink his blood, the people most certainly knew that he was being literal because it caused most of his disciples to abandon him. It was written that Only the Apostles had sufficient faith in him to give him the benefit of the doubt and stayed with him. They were rewarded later at the last supper, when Jesus explained the rest to them, that the bread and wine would become his body and blood when consecrated in memory of him. You are at a severe disadvantage being outside the Chruch because you have no one to put the pieces of the bible together for you.

Quote:
Jesus sacrifice is finished. What we “add” to it is ourselves. Our work is not finished.

Works are required for the sanctification that is required to enter heaven…

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Indeed it is a painful amanuensis at times, especially when I am keenly aware of my own sins that drove the nails into His flesh. I don’t think it is possible to understand the Eucharistic celebration apart from the Passover.

He died for our sins, did he not. If we had not sinned, he would not have had to die on the cross.

Quote:
There are some aspects of salvation that are passed (once for all). There are some that are still being “worked out” and there are some that do not come in this life. This is the Apostolic concept of salvation, past, present, and future. Calvin decided to truncate it, and separate sanctification and glorification from justification. It served his purpose in being able to found a new church according to his own standards

This is a matter of not understanding the word saved in the same way. When the Bible talkes about being saved, it means that your sins are forgiven and you start life anew. This happens at baptism and each time we recieve the sacrament of reconciliation. You treat saved and Going to heaven as the same thing. But they are not. You need to be saved to go to heaven, it is true But you need to stay in the state of grace once you have been saved, becoming sanctified in the process, in order to go to heaven. If you fall from grace and are not reconciled to God sacramentally, you will surely be condemned to Hell.

Quote:
Yes. And that Christ commanded us “unless you eat my Body, and drink my Blood, you have no life within you”, and we obey Him.

I have shown you above that your interpretation is wrong. It is you who must twist scripture in order to defend your theology. You will find the truth of this on judgement day if you are not convinced sooner.

Quote:
Yes, this is what we believe. This is why, when you call our obedience in them “works based” we get confused. For us, we are only doing that which is our duty.

What are you talking about. We were made in the image and likeness of God. How could there be nothing good in us? You have a very low opinion of both God and humanity.

 

[panevino]

…

Problem: this verse has nothing to do with the Lord’s Supper; completely out of context - not a good thing to twist the Scripture in such a manner especially since Jesus states exactly what He meant later on, which is a spiritual meaning using a carnal example as He often did. And if I recall correctly He specifically stated the “flesh profits nothing”; just for those who might be confused.

Exo 29:32 And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that [is] in the basket, [by] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate [and] to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat [thereof], because they [are] holy.

Rom 8: 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

 

[paul_c]

It seems to me that this discussion is going nowhere, just as it has for the last 500 years.

Calvin and Moondweller bring up every scriptural passage that mentions Faith in regards to salvation and extrapolate that to support two heresies:

1. That all you need to be saved is to have Faith in Jesus
2. That being saved is the equivalent of going to heaven.

Catholics dutifully bring up the dozens of passages that show that other things are also required to be saved (Baptism, the eucharist, grace, followign the commandments, doing works of mercy, loving God and neighbor, etc).

We also dutifully show that beingsaved means that your sins are forgiven and that you have new life, but you must STAY in the state of grace after this or you won’t go to heaven.

This is of course to no avail, because Calvin and Moondweller simply explain these scriptural passages away as not pertaining to them, since they have Faith.

It got me to thinking how exquisitely deceitful Satan can be. These men, who in their hearts love Christ, have been led to believe that they are serving him by pulling men away from the sacraments and good works that are actually required to save them. And think of the brilliance of the fundamental lie behind all this: " Believe that Christ will save you. Don’t worry about what he told you in terms of loving God and others, Don’t worry about the sacraments. All that matters is that you trust in the Lord to save you…Don’t worry about justice. Focus on God’s mercy. That’s all you need. Its that EASY, You are bad people . If not for God’s mercy, you couldn’t be saved anyway , so believe in that, Its your only chance."

Its brilliant because it makes disobedience seem like it is serving God and of course its appeal is that it takes away men’s responsiblity and need to work on their own holiness. Instead, it allows men to do what they want to do never understanding the consequences until it is too late.

 

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by moondweller
But Peter says of the believer, no longer in Adam, but born again in Christ, the Last Adam, through faith:
1 Pet 1:3-5 “*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, *to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”
Are you allowed to disagree with someone you call your first “Pope?” Shouldn’t the teachings of all your subsequent Popes (and you) be in agreement with your first Pope? How can this be?You have your “clear scripture” regarding inheriting the kingdom of God in the above quote from the one you call your first Pope. Now you need to deal with it.That’s because you disagree with the Scriptures that teach that one’s entrance into the kingdom of God is based on one’s present salvation, imputed righteousness and becoming a child of God by believing in Christ alone. But instead you want to believe entrance is based on WORKS alone. IOW, one’s future entrance is based on one’s present behavior.

Your argument is not with me but with the one you call your first Pope. Good luck on that. You still have to deal with Peter and his “papal” teaching…

You just will not respond to my posts.

What you ignore in an effort to maintain your desired adopted beliefs can be pointed out very simply with the same quote submitted. Where you insisted as in red above and underlined so emphatically “…to an inheritance* imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time*.",
you ignore the previous statement, "*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be ****born again “to a living hope *through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” , It does not say living certainty, it says “hope”. Explain what is the necessity of “hope” if it is as you suggest without possibility of loss?
*You also ignore the last part of the verse “…for a salvation **ready ******to be revealed *in the last time”, not revealed now for all permanently to assume there is a free ticket that we can not lose through sin.
　
As far as your reversion to anti-Catholic attacks against the Faith through accusations targeting the pope, please supply the information and sources as to your accusations. I also point out this is a obvious sign you are suffering from lack of credible support in your attempt to credibly support your interpretations.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I’ve been lurking and have read many of the posts in this thread. I just wanted to say that I am very impressed with the posters here who have explained the Catholic position, especially Cat Herder because of the large amount of Scripture he/she provided.

I have enjoyed this thread and have learned a lot about Catholicism and I appreciate all the posts. You have made me stronger in my faith and helped me to understand Truth.

Calvin, you mentioned that you love Moondweller as a brother. I submit that I also love Moondweller and I love you, too. As Catholics we love all people, not just those who agree with us.

I feel confident in stating that every Catholic here loves you, knows you have a soul, were created by a loving God, are precious to that God (and to us), and hopes to be with you in heaven.

God’s peace and joy to us all!!

 

[moondweller]

It seems to me that this discussion is going nowhere, just as it has for the last 500 years.

Calvin and Moondweller bring up every scriptural passage that mentions Faith in regards to salvation and extrapolate that to support two heresies:

1. That all you need to be saved is to have Faith in Jesus
2. That being saved is the equivalent of going to heaven.

Yes on the first one. But it’s true faith in Jesus, not merely possessing knowledge of Jesus and not believe in what He actual DID, once for all, through His sacrificial work on our behalf. There’s a big difference between believing things about Jesus and actually believing “in Him” As Abraham believed “in the Lord” and He (the Lord" reckoned (credited) it (his belief in Him) to him (Abraham) as righteousness (Gen. 15:6).

As for the second one, it is true that all the “saved” are just that “SAVED.” And it is true that ALL the saved will enjoy heaven. For eternity they’ll be with their “SAVIOR.” See the similarity between the words “saved” and “Savior?”

The crux of the problem is that Catholicism has no concept of the word “saved” (a completed act of God). The following quote is the reason for that:

Catholics dutifully bring up the dozens of passages that show that **other things are also required to be saved ** (Baptism, the eucharist, grace, followign the commandments, doing works of mercy, loving God and neighbor, etc).

We also dutifully show that being saved means that your sins are forgiven and that you have new life, but you must STAY in the state of grace after this or you won’t go to heaven.

IOW, Catholic salvation is based on the works of men. Hence, according to Catholic tradition “salvation” is a future event based on the Catholic’s present performance. And then you turn around and vehemently deny that Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Yet every Catholic believes he/she must personally do things in this life in order to procure his/her future salvation in the next life (including suffering in Purgatory if need be (most expect it). Of course it is taught that all who enter Purgatory will be saved, but they must first personally suffer in order to be cleansed of “venial” sins, else no entrance into heaven is permitted them (one last work on their part). Hence, no faith in the Biblical teaching that it’s the blood of Christ that cleanses men of all sins upon belief in Him.

This is of course to no avail, because Calvin and Moondweller simply explain these scriptural passages away as not pertaining to them, since they have Faith.

Here’s what we believe in a nutshell:Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation TO all men (not saving all men), instructing us (who have believed in Christ and are saved) to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age (which is proper behavior for the saved, not requirements to be saved), looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession (believers have been purchased and purified by His blood, that’s redemption), zealous for good deeds (but not “saved” by those good deeds.)

This is congruent with Paul’s basic doctrine on salvation:Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.“And the behavioral part is in verse 10 which identifies the “saved by grace through faith” in vss. 8-9 as God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” but not BY those works.

It got me to thinking how exquisitely deceitful Satan can be.

There’s nothing deceitful nor Satanic at all about Paul’s doctrinal message (“gospel”) about salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. It’s what was proclaimed from the very beginning, starting from Jerusalem, to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles (Greeks). It’s rightfully called the “gospel” (good news).

 

[twb1621]

…

*I hope everyone wakes up and realizes MoonDweller is dead on accurate.

A distorted acceptance of another man’s opinion you offer. One of MD’s positions is here quoted that you agree with. What you also ignore in an effort to maintain your desired adopted beliefs can be pointed out very simply with the same quote. Where insisted as in red above and underlined so emphatically “…to an inheritance* imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time*.",
you ignore the previous statement, "*Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be ****born again “to a living hope **through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” , It does not say living certainty, it says “hope”. Explain what is the necessity of “hope” if it is as you suggest without possibility of loss? *

*Justification by God; another wonderful gift cannot be missed by a serious believer and student of Scripture and lover of God. If it is not by faith alone, then what is it by?

A true believer who actually knows the correct teaching of Scripture in the love of God would not have such a question to raise nor disregard so much of scripture in an effort to avoid facing his or her own misinterpretation such as you reflect in your expression of bias. Read further…

*Faith and works? Faith and cross your fingers and hope not to die? If someone tries to comeback with James 2; then that person shows further ignorance of Scripture and of what James is affirming and will have to explain away Paul in some twisted manner because that person will put James in conflict with Paul. If that were the case then burn your Bible; it is worthless.

Arrogance supported by bias breeds ignorance my friend. There is no “explaining away” one verse for another, all Scripture teaches in unison with each other and Scripture, when interpreted correctly, does not conflict with itself. The resentment those such as yourself have with the word “works” is you do not comprehend the difference in the reference to works Paul (as with the Pharisee perspective) speaks of and the Works we are called to. We do not throw away Paul to validate our reference to works referred throughout Scripture including that of James and we do not throw away James to justify what we know Paul speaks of. Both are legitimate points of Teaching without conflict, both are references distinctive in there intended meaning.

The obedience we are instructed to is to live according to Christ’s Teachings and He teaches us not only by the life He lived but by examples He offered us. Avoidance of sin and works of charity in humility with love for one another in our love of Him are our expression of faith and its completeness, the fulfillment of that faith, which He demands of us. Grace through faith is not a free ticket to sin yet guarantee of salvation regardless of our actions beyond Baptism into Christ. The works of charity in humility Jesus Himself lived by and instructed all to obey are necessary for us to retain (not earn) that salvation Christ offers us so that all men MAY be saved. These are the expressions of love of each other in love of Christ.

Salvation is through grace in faith, yes, but if you think that is all there is you are sadly misguided. According to the teachings of Christ, it is the expression of faith through works of love in charity, and humility, in the love of Christ that we are to live by. If you do not understand this, it is because you were led to believe that “works“ always refers to works of the law, which it does not. Christ refers us to the works of Charity… Consider the following passage from James;

James CH2; 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus (Notice the level of frustration James experience’s as reflected here), that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now consider the following examples Christ gives us as works of love and the fact that without them, we can loss the gift of salvation;

continued next post…

 

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continued from previous post:

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Matthew CH25; 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

James CH2; 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Romans CH2; 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
　 The works we speak of are works of love in charity toward others, humbly, not boastfully, in the love of Christ. These works are well explained through examples Christ gave us above. They are not by any means an attempt to “earn” salvation, but rather to live up to our responsibility to the salvation gifted to us through the passion, death and resurrection of Christ.
　
First, where did the written contents of your Bible originate (and I do not mean who Inspired them) ?
Second, as your faith is one of those born of the protestant reformation, where is either the establishment of your faith or the so called “reformation” justified in scripture?

I asked this previous question because Scripture does clearly warn of others distorting the Word of God, false prophets and teachers leading many away from His True Church, both from within and outside of her, but I am not aware of anything in Scripture that remotely supports the remobilization, establishment or founding of any new church or system of beliefs by any man or women or even reforming the existing Church at any time. In fact, Jesus made it clear only He by the Authority given Him by the Father, would reconcile all things in Heaven and on Earth to Himself THROUGH Himself.

Thirdly, do you believe you or anyone holding your adopted beliefs could understand the teachings and intent of the written word better than the Apostolic Fathers who were taught directly by the Apostles as either adults or children in most cases, who learned not from written word, but by Apostolic Preaching and attending discipleship, who could for this reason, determine the true understanding intended of those teachings, what texts were authentic according to those teachings, men who succeeded the Apostles and even their immediate successors and who we know were guided by the Holy Spirit within the union of the Early Church Fathers over the first four centuries to determine which Gospel texts were in fact authentic Apostolic teachings and the Inspired Word of God and which were not?

And what comparable support does Calvin’s opinions stem from in opposition to the Catholic Faith in comparison to the Apostolic Fathers and their common cooperative writings of the true Faith Founded by Jesus Christ in His Blood as established by the chosen Apostles and their institution of the succession to their authority until Christ‘s return as they were commissioned?

 

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Yes on the first one. But it’s true faith in Jesus, not merely possessing knowledge of Jesus and not believe in what He actual DID, once for all, through His sacrificial work on our behalf. There’s a big difference between believing things about Jesus and actually believing “in Him” As Abraham believed “in the Lord” and He (the Lord" reckoned (credited) it (his belief in Him) to him (Abraham) as righteousness (Gen. 15:6).

As for the second one, it is true that all the “saved” are just that “SAVED.” And it is true that ALL the saved will enjoy heaven. For eternity they’ll be with their “SAVIOR.” See the similarity between the words “saved” and “Savior?”

The crux of the problem is that Catholicism has no concept of the word “saved” (a completed act of God). The following quote is the reason for that:IOW, Catholic salvation is based on the works of men. Hence, according to Catholic tradition “salvation” is a future event based on the Catholic’s present performance. And then you turn around and vehemently deny that Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Yet every Catholic believes he/she must personally do things in this life in order to procure his/her future salvation in the next life (including suffering in Purgatory if need be (most expect it). Of course it is taught that all who enter Purgatory will be saved, but they must first personally suffer in order to be cleansed of “venial” sins, else no entrance into heaven is permitted them (one last work on their part). Hence, no faith in the Biblical teaching that it’s the blood of Christ that cleanses men of all sins upon belief in Him.Here’s what we believe in a nutshell:
Titus 2:11-14 “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation TO all men (not saving all men), instructing us (who have believed in Christ and are saved) to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age (which is proper behavior for the saved, not requirements to be saved), looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession (believers have been purchased and purified by His blood, that’s redemption), zealous for good deeds (but not “saved” by those good deeds.)
This is congruent with Paul’s basic doctrine on salvation:
Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
And the behavioral part is in verse 10 which identifies the “saved by grace through faith” in vss. 8-9 as God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” but not BY those works.There’s nothing deceitful nor Satanic at all about Paul’s doctrinal message (“gospel”) about salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. It’s what was proclaimed from the very beginning, starting from Jerusalem, to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles (Greeks). It’s rightfully called the “gospel” (good news).

why not explain posts #775 and #776 also? Or will you avoid these as the past…