Faith alone or not?

[moondweller]

It does not say living certainty, it says “hope”. Explain what is the necessity of “hope” if it is as you suggest without possibility of loss?

It’s a LIVING hope. A “living hope” is not a “hope so” kind of “hope.” It’s an optimism based on the fact of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, He being the “first fruits” of the bodily resurrection, unto glory, of all who have believed.

It’s expressed as a “living hope” because we have yet to experience the consummation of it. But for now we “walk by faith” in the revealed truth of it. But not with an uncertain faith.

You also ignore the last part of the verse “…for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time not revealed now for all permanently to assume there is a free ticket that we can not lose through sin.

Again, this is referring to the consummation of the salvation every believer NOW possesses. ALL that is GIFTED with salvation, though faith in Jesus Christ, is yet to be revealed at His return for those who are His. As the Apostle John wrote:1 John 3:2-3 “Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope {fixed} on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”

As far as your reversion to anti-Catholic attacks against the Faith through accusations targeting the pope, please supply the information and sources as to your accusations.

I have not attacked your Pope in any way. I merely pointed out that you believe that Peter was your first Pope and he (Peter) taught a “for certain” inheritance for all believers, which is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for those who are protected by the power of God (1 Pet. 1:3-5).

I also point out this is a obvious sign you are suffering from lack of credible support in your attempt to credibly support your interpretations.

The best way to “interpret” 1 Pet. 1:3-5 is not to “interpret” it at all. Just BELIEVE it.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
It

seems to me that this discussion is going nowhere, just as it has for the last 500 years.

Said another way. Catholics believe that Saved means freed from prior sin and are made a new man. I other words, you get a restart. Which is indeed a completed action. Calvinists believe saved means that you are going to heaven.

Quote:
Catholics dutifully bring up the dozens of passages that show that other things are also required to be saved (Baptism, the eucharist, grace, followign the commandments, doing works of mercy, loving God and neighbor, etc).

Catholics DO believe that good works are required to enter heaven. Catholics DONT believe that works alone are sufficient to get to heaven. With you, there are only two choices: works OR faith. The reality is it requires works AND faith, (and baptism and love, and the eucharist, etc)

Quote:
This is of course to no avail, because Calvin and Moondweller simply explain these scriptural passages away as not pertaining to them, since they have Faith.

Its prett telling that you have to add more to the statement than Paul did to make it say what you wanted.

This is congruent with Paul’s basic doctrine on salvation:
Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
And the behavioral part is in verse 10 which identifies the “saved by grace through faith” in vss. 8-9 as God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works," but not BY those works.

Right. this works in Catholic theology too. We are saved through faith when we get baptized, whether we were good or evil in our actions.

Quote:
It got me to thinking how exquisitely deceitful Satan can be.

you see, you have been decieved into thinking that Calvin’s statement actually came from Paul. You see, he never said that salvation was by Grace ALONE through faith in Christ ALONE. Those "Alones’ were added by Calvin. And if you think about it, you claim that two things are done alone- a error in logic.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The crux of the problem is that Catholicism has no concept of the word “saved” (a completed act of God).

The crux of the problem is that Calvinism has no concept of the word LOVE.

[BIBLEDRB]Gal 5:6[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 13:2[/BIBLEDRB]

Faith alone doesn’t save. Love does. If you love Christ, you will do what?

[BIBLEDRB]Jn 14:15[/BIBLEDRB]

“Ah,” you will say, “but if you have faith you will do the works because they were prepared beforehand.”

What if I refuse to do them?

“Then you don’t have faith.”

Already you have admitted that faith alone doesn’t save. But let’s take it further. Why is it that I cannot choose to have faith but do not do works? “Because you were predestined to either be saved, and so have faith, or to not be saved and so not have faith.”

So you have something other than faith–predestination–that is the actual alleged cause of salvation. Faith, like works, is just a side effect in your theory. So when you say salvation is by faith alone, you are not being forthright. If you were honest you would say that salvation is by predestination alone. But then you’d have to explain why you are wasting so much time and ink here on CAF trying to “evangelize.” In Calvinism, peoples’ salvation is determined before they even exist. Faith, works, love, and anything that happens in life is totally irrelevant, and thus, so is all of your work here.

But let’s take it a bit farther.

If faith is really an infallible marker of salvation, what about the unborn victims of abortion? The mentally infirm? Children below the age of reason who meet a premature end? All of these are not even capable of having faith as you define it. Does that mean they all go to hell?

No. And I will tell you why.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

No one is predestined to damnation. And no, faith is not only not the sole cause of salvation, it is not even a valid indicator of who is saved.

Love is.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 7[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[moondweller]

Said another way. Catholics believe that Saved means freed from prior sin and are made a new man. I other words, you get a restart.

That’s not SAVED. That’s simply a “start over.”

Which is indeed a completed action. Calvinists believe saved means that you are going to heaven.

“Saved,” according to the Scriptures, means that the BELIEVER in Christ is, forgiven of ALL sins, justified (reckoned righteous with the righteousness of God imputed to him), once for all reconciled to God, now and forever sanctified in Christ, redeemed (purchased) by His blood, and will be glorified.

Catholics DO believe that good works are required to enter heaven.

Absolutely!

Catholics DONT believe that works alone are sufficient to get to heaven.

Actually, you do. Catholicism sees “salvation” as a process beginning with water baptism (a work, no faith in Christ required, especially for infants), The “process” then continues with required works all the way up to death and then into “Purgatory” where you must personally suffer for your “venial” sins. So, you see, it truly is a works process from beginning to end. Whereas salvation in the Scriptures is revealed to be gifted, by grace through faith,not as a result of works" (Eph. 2:8-9).

With you, there are only two choices: works OR faith. The reality is it requires works AND faith, (and baptism and love, and the eucharist, etc).

In the Scriptures ONLY those who first BELIEVED were subsequently water baptized. Water baptism being a public testimony of their inward faith in Christ. It wasn’t the baptism that saved them, it was believing the good news message concerning Christ (see Acts 8:12; 16:30-31; 18:8).

Right. this works in Catholic theology too. We are saved through faith when we get baptized, whether we were good or evil in our actions.

You Catholics don’t get SAVED through baptism. You get a “start over” and then you must meet all the necessary requirements. “Salvation” being a future event based on your present performance.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Let me answer that. 100% and not on any basis of what I or MD have ever done, but rather in spite of ourselves and we have only anothers merit to rest on and He is the God-man Jesus Christ. He is so kind and so merciful; while we were yet sinners HE SAVED US, can you believe that, He is so gracious for doing this for us and we are so thankful that we can’t even express ourselves in a worthy manner, but we will worship, thank and praise Him for all eternity. We will sit right on the throne with Jesus; on the very throne, can you believe He would let us do that; I told you He was a really super-duper Person; I love Him with all my heart as much as a human heart can love. he consumes my life in my thoughts, my actions and my deeds and I can’t stop thinking about Him, when I get up he is the first thing I dwell on, throughout the day He just keeps coming into my thoughts and when i lie down He is still there; that is how much I and MD love this god-man named Jesus Christ.

I commend you for your love of God - it says much about you. I cannot say the same for MD only because I haven’t read many of his/her posts. I don’t mean this as any sort of insult towards MD - it’s just ignorance on my part at this point; ignorance I hope to alleviate by continuing to read the posts in this thread. I’m kind of going backwards from the later posts to the earlier posts and that’s probably not the best way to approach this thread.

I would like for you to answer the following questions, if you would be so kind:

What chance do I, as a Catholic, have of entering heaven - a Catholic who sins, who makes mistakes, who fails, who is totally unworthy of being saved, who (as you know) turned her back on God, stated that she hated God, did not understand the Love of God, who in her grief spit in the face of God?

Do you think I have any chance at all of entering heaven to be with God?

Did I ever have a chance?

 

[Cat_Herder]

That’s not SAVED. That’s simply a “start over.”“Saved,” according to the Scriptures, means that the BELIEVER in Christ is, forgiven of ALL sins, justified (reckoned righteous with the righteousness of God imputed to him), once for all reconciled to God, now and forever sanctified in Christ, redeemed (purchased) by His blood, and will be glorified.Absolutely!Actually, you do. Catholicism sees “salvation” as a process beginning with water baptism (a work, no faith in Christ required, especially for infants),

What happens if the infant dies immediately after being baptized?

 

[ignatius777]

I commend you for your love of God - it says much about you. I cannot say the same for MD only because I haven’t read many of his/her posts. I don’t mean this as any sort of insult towards MD - it’s just ignorance on my part at this point; ignorance I hope to alleviate by continuing to read the posts in this thread. I’m kind of going backwards from the later posts to the earlier posts and that’s probably not the best way to approach this thread.

I would like for you to answer the following questions, if you would be so kind:

What chance do I, as a Catholic, have of entering heaven - a Catholic who sins, who makes mistakes, who fails, who is totally unworthy of being saved, who (as you know) turned her back on God, stated that she hated God, did not understand the Love of God, who in her grief spit in the face of God?

Do you think I have any chance at all of entering heaven to be with God?

Did I ever have a chance?

Heres the problem with the protestant view of sola fida. They believe faith alone is sufficeint for salvation but say works stem from faith but are not as necessary for salvation. But they also believe faith without works is dead and if its dead then its not faith and cant render us saved. So if faith without works id dead and dead faith cant save how do they claim works are necessary for salvation?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Actually, you do. Catholicism sees “salvation” as a process beginning with water baptism (a work, no faith in Christ required, especially for infants),

Water alone doesn’t save. Baptism saves because of Who is involved.
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 2:38[/BIBLEDRB]
The Holy Spirit. And guess what else the the Holy Spirit gives:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 12:9[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 4:13[/BIBLEDRB]

Saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It is not a set of manmade intellectual rubrics. We baptize infants so that they will have faith, because baptism confers the Holy Spirit and faith comes from the Holy Spirit.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Said another way. Catholics believe that Saved means freed from prior sin and are made a new man. I other words, you get a restart.

If we didn’t get the “start over” we would be condemned to hell, so we are in fact " saved".

Quote:
Which is indeed a completed action. Calvinists believe saved means that you are going to heaven.

I’m sorry Moonwdweller, I don’t see any scriptural support here, only your statement. That’s because its NOT scriptural. Your being disenguous to claim its scriptural without producing the actual passage.

Quote:
Catholics DO believe that good works are required to enter heaven.

Quote:
Catholics DONT believe that works alone are sufficient to get to heaven.

Actually, we don’t. Why are telling us what we believe?

Catholicism sees “salvation” as a process beginning with water baptism (a work, no faith in Christ required, especially for infants),

No, requesting baptism requires Faith, either on the part of the adult who is being baptized or the parent, who is having their child baptized.

The “process” then continues with required works all the way up to death and then into “Purgatory” where you must personally suffer for your “venial” sins. So, you see, it truly is a works process from beginning to end. Whereas salvation in the Scriptures is revealed to be gifted, by grace through faith,not as a result of works" (Eph. 2:8-9).

Unsurprisingly, you miss a significant part of Catholic teaching. We are “saved” through grace by faith whe we are baptized or cleansed through the sacrament of reconciliation. We the do the works we are called to do by Grace because of love of God and Neighbor to stay saved (we call it being in the state of Grace). These Works only provide spiritual benefit if they are done out of Faith and love. As described in Matthew 6, if you do works for public acclaim, then you have already received your reward.

Quote:
With you, there are only two choices: works OR faith. The reality is it requires works AND faith, (and baptism and love, and the eucharist, etc).

Of course only those who believed were water baptized. You (or your proxy, if you are an infant) have to pronounce your faith to make it valid. That’s the whole point, a public proclamation and ceremonial cleansing to seal a covenant relationship between you and God, whereby you become a member of the church, full of grace and free of prior sin. But now you don’t even believe in baptism, do you?

Quote:
Right. this works in Catholic theology too. We are saved through faith when we get baptized, whether we were good or evil in our actions.

Well, no. If we aren’t baptized, we are condemned, so baptism saves…

“Salvation” being a future event based on your present performance.

Going to heaven is a future event, for sure, and its based on whether we are in the state of grace when we die.

 

[Ashton_Gaskill]

In the Scriptures ONLY those who first BELIEVED were subsequently water baptized. Water baptism being a public testimony of their inward faith in Christ. It wasn’t the baptism that saved them, it was believing the good news message concerning Christ (see Acts 8:12; 16:30-31; 18:8).

Another thing that needs to be noted here is that during the time of the Scriptures, which you are referring, Baptism and Confirmation where the same thing. At the time, however, many people didn’t fully understand their religion and feared for the souls of their children. Since the Bishops couldn’t be everywhere at once, they decided to split the Sacrament. Priests began the sacrament by Baptizing the infants, removing original sin by the power of God and the faith of the parents. When the child grew older, the Bishop finished the sacrament by “public testimony of their inward faith in Christ” by Confirming it. Thus, Confirmation.

 

[Calvin_95]

Moon seems to disagree. You say a “true believer” cannot do those things … Moon says yes they can. I agree with moon that a believer can engage in those activities the same as a non-believer. I also agree that any Christian (catholic or not) should not engage in these … but you don’t seem to think so … you think they cannot.

Which is it?

What you and Moon imply is that a true believing fornicator is substantially different from the unbelieving fornicator. There is one fornicator clothed in righteousness and one that is not but both are fornicators, hence my dung heap comment. Would you not agree that both are fornicators?

I ask again … who in that scenario is **required **to repent?

I don’t infalliably know my eternal destiny, you do. I know I must work out my faith fear and trembling and that only by grace do I, with hope, begin to conform my will to God’s. God is a just and merciful judge.

The number who deserve … we agree is small … probably 0 but that is not the question. See above for a clarification.
Again that is not the question … I agree God can choose whom He wants, that is God’s purview not mine.

The question still is faith alone and the nature and effect of sin. You submit sinning is bad, we should’nt do it but by a moment of personal faith declaration the effect of any sin on me, past, present or future is removed. The only effect my sin has is on my brothers and sisters. What I do in the world still matters, really matters but in your theology … not really since personal salvation is guaranteed. It would be nice to live a Christian life but if you don’t so be it.

The effects of sin are real both to the body and soul whether they are commited by believers or not. I see the attractiveness of your theology, I really do, but it does not square with Scripture nor reason. A sinning, believing fornicator may repent to God and his family but is really not required to do so. Repenting changes nothing after a faith alone moment.

Problem: You have totally ignored the nature of what a Christian is; this is a person who is in Christ and as such has a new nature from the “New Birth”, which means the Christian has the righteousness of Christ imputed to them. As for sin you overlook the simple matter that any sin forgiven was forgiven in the past since it was by His death, burial and resurrection whereby God was just in justifying the wicked. Bible 101.

As far as your comparison to MD & myself; it is always easy to compare apples t oranges and get it wrong, such is the case. We are both right. I like oranges better; so MD gets to be the orange.

My theology is not mine, but it is God’s; read and understand the Scipture and quit letting someone else do the work for you; it is work and it is enjoyable. If you put as much time and energy into just reading and studying the word of God that you spend here; you would probably have a whole new perspective on many things.

 

[Calvin_95]

Ok Calvin, let’s see you back up your accusation here. Produce official Catholic documents that teach this. In this way, we will know it is really a Catholic teaching, and not just some calumny you are spreading here. Pleast start with the Joint Declaration on Justification, if you don’t mind.

Logic and reason; if you must be saved, being saved and will be saved in order to get to heaven, then to get saved one must be righteous before salvation, why do you think you invented the safety net called purgatory because they saw the hole in the theology and had to catch ever who falls into with the “purification net”, which is purgatory, which is no where in Scripture and where that evolved is a mystery to me.

I can understand the Calvanisitic position of Total Depravity. I am curious how you understand the Scripture that injoins us to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”.

Do you understand the context of this “workout”? it is not here is the informationpacket and go over there and work it out. This is about santification, the incremental steps through out one’s life; doing the things that allow you to become more Christ-like; one can only be a Christian already to do what this verse speaks of and the sanctification and perseverance to do so are all gifts of God which is why salvation is all of the God-man and none of carnal man.

If you now as much about “most religions” as you know about the Catholic faith, then such as statement has very little value coming from such an uninformed source.

ad hominem

I don’t see how. The whole chapter uses the grammatical construction 'by faith (name of person) + VERB". This chapter is more of a testimony to the Catholic conception of saving faith as a faith that WORKS.

Do you know what the Church teaches in this regard? Try faith plus works = meritorious grace where God does His part and you do your part and as long as you don’t commit a mortal sin, which all sin is, before you die you have the safety net to catch you to make you righteous before entering into heaven, which in and of itself contradicts Jesus very words that He did not come to save the righteous, but sinners. Notice who does the saving and whom He saves. You must have a protestant background because you seem to move to both sides of the fence by the way you write, but that is neither here nor there so the saying goes.

Catholics embrace the faith of the Apostles, so we never separate faith, hope, and love. For us, faith is never “alone” but is always accompanied by the deeds that befit repentance.

If that were true you shed yourself of many things. Don’t ask me to elaborate; I won’t so don’t ask.

This is the crux of your misunderstanding of Catholicism, Calvin. You are having to redefine what you read after running it through your Reformed filters.

This is the crux of your misunderstanding of Christianity, Guan. You are having to redefine what you read after running it through your Catholic filters.

You also don’t seem to realize that the NT is a CATHOLIC BOOK, written by, for, and about CATHOLICS. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Therefore, when the Catholic Paul writes to the Catholic Christians in Ephesus, saying “By grace you are saved through faith”, this is the foundation of Catholic belief about salvation.

You also don’t seem to realize that the NT is a CHRISTIAN BOOK, written by, for, and about CHRISTIANS. There is nothing in it that is not CHRISTIAN. Therefore, when the CHRISTIAN Paul writes to the CHristian Christians in Ephesus, saying “By grace you are saved through faith”, this is the foundation of CHRISTIANITY.

So your rendering above of these being “works based” is simply erroneous. The works that we do are those that we believe God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Protestant, pretending to be Catholic. tell how does the Catholic get to heaven w/out the purgatory? Faith alone in Christ alone or by faith based on works, like the Sacraments?

We just don’t separate Eph. 2:8-9 from v. 10 like you do. We believe that the grace that saves us is the same grace that produces the works. They are ergos hagios, grace based works.

You really are a Protestant at heart because that is not what your church teaches otherwise you could skip the Sacraments and still be just fine and you will never admit to that. But if you skipped that water baptism, then troubled waters ahead.

It only contradicts your perceptions of the Scripture, Calvin. Catholicism is not a “bible based religion”, so we don’t try to extract doctrine from handfuls of scripture.

 

[Calvin_95]

He intended to have a visible Church. This is what He meant when He said “take it to the Church”. He did not expect for the disciples to be floundering about looking for something invisible and mystical. He ordained and appointed authorities over His flock to govern them, and instructed the disciples to allow the authority He appointed to settle their disputes.

Would you lke to dance the “side-step” with me some more. Your church makes an exclusive claim that it is the true Church that Christ founded contrary to what all of the NT teaches and especially since the church is yet to be revealed; yet you claim it has been revealed so do I believe you or God? the true chirch are those of Christ’s elect; are you telling me that the Catholic church is the elect of God or that they have the supernatural ability to know who the elect of God are? that is you implication here. You know that is not true.

It might be a good idea for you to stop here and consider your motives for coming to CAF. If you are not here to get “Catholic Answers” you may be in the wrong place. It is against the forum rules for you to proselytize here, so if that is your goal, your posting legacy will be short.

Here is where we run out of ways to defend our faith in the APOLOGETICS forum and please go and read the rules of engagement; you are suppose to defend your faith and I am defending mine and that is the purpose of this particular section titled APLOGETICS. Like anyone could convert anyone even if they wanted to; that is the work of God, not of man. Bible 101.

I deleted the rest after reaching this portion of your post and I will not respond to any more of your posts from this point onward. People that throw rules in ones face; knowing there is no violation, which you do know I am speaking the truth because the rules are quite clear, which is why I “carefully choose” which forum to visit based on the rules and the phrase “choose your forum carefully” is emphasized in that section. Good day and good bye.

 

[Calvin_95]

You asked a hypothetical question to prove an irrelevant point. I answered your hypothetical question but do not wish to discuss the irrelevant point it leads to.

No calvin, Jesus did not say you “ARE WITH ME” in paradise, he said “you WILL BE WITH ME” in paradise. There is a difference and, quite frankly, it is also irrlevant.

Oh really? How exactly do you know that? Is that the same context that Romans 6:3 is in, where Paul says “ALL” have sinned? Perhaps that means that not EVERYBODY has sinned but simply “people, tribes, tongues, great, small, young, old, black, white, brown etc; (but)not every single person.” In fact, that might explain why the men I listed are revealed by Scripture to be “righteous” even though you claim that’s impossible.

No, I don’t have time to waste. Do you?

I dont have any problem. You seem to have a problem stating what you are thinking.
What does Scripture say about inheriting the KOG? Does it say that it is by faith alone anywhere?? If it does, please point it out. I have shared a number of verses that point to a condition of inheriting the KOG - none of them speak of faith alone.

This is a very good example of your inability to articulate clearly so that what you intend to say can be understood. Either you are “sure” that he addressed and then that reality would obviate your stating that “perhaps” I need to read all the posts. If you were sure, then you could state definitively that IF I were to read all the posts I would find it. But you havent actually read them all, and when you say you are “sure” you actually arent sure - you simply wish it were so. I wonder how much your definciency in articulating clearly your own thoughts reveals your inability to understand what is meant by the opinions of, say, Paul in Scripture.

I assume Paul is talking to a Christian in Galatians??? The letter is addressed to the church in Galatia - of course he is speaking to Christians. Here is just a sampling of the things he says of the people he is writing to which confirms that they are Christians:
“I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard?”
Who “receives the Spirit” Calvin? Non-Christians? Christians do, and Paul says they have recieved the Spirit. The are Christians.
“For through faith you are all children of God 17 in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”
Hmmm, they are all children of God through faith in Christ…what should we call them do you suppose? Pagans? They are Christians, of course.
The problem is not in identifying them as Christians, the problem is that you import Calvins heresies regarding salvation and inheriting the KOG into the verses when they don’t exist. You start with "salvation is by faith alone, blah blah blah, and then you rationalize away the clear meaning of what is said. Here, take a look for yourself…

So you conclude that he “wasnt taking to Christians because he wouldnt say such things to Christians because the things he says contradict salvation by faith alone” What SHOULD be going through your mind is: If he says these very clear things to Christians, then something is wrong with some of the theology of Calvin because Paul clearly contradicts what Calvin taught. It’s sad, really.

I’ll tell you what - you can reply to my post 644 if your man enough - I don’t need to go off on speculative side tracks regarding the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. The question is whether a Christian can “fall from grace and be separated from Christ” Read Galatians, read my post 644 and tell me where Im wrong.

Blessings!

Mostly ad hominem attacks; God likes to use an economy of words; why would He need to add alone when it is so oft and strongly implied in all of Scripture that one can scarcely overlook it? If it is not through faith alone, then it must be through faith plus something a man does, which then is self defeating because if through faith alone in Christ needs something added to it, then Christ is not enough and we might as well chuck the Bible.

 

[Calvin_95]

Calvin 95 in Christ,

You are partially correct about James in that he is not talking about works and justification at the moment in time when God gratuitously gives us his grace to believe and we are simultaneously made a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared before hand that we should walk in them. James is, however, speaking of justification and he quite clearly says so throughout chapter 2 of his letter.

Please note that James never says what you’ve said. You “claim” that "James is teaching that true faith RESULTS, RESULTS, RESULTS in good works", but he never says or implies such a thing. Instead, the apostle says this:

The apostle says quite clearly that works justify. He also says that faith is completed by works. He does not say what you say in claiming that “faith results in works.” Notice the apostle’s language versus your language. They are both quite different and they mean entirely different things.

When James speaks of justification by works and not faith alone, he is speaking of justification in the life of the Christian, and without works your faith is not complete and that it will not save you. James is very clear in all of this, and it is for this reason that he says in verse 24 that:

You are probably correct on one other thing. Yes, we might very well discuss this “all day long” and you could well remain unconvinced. That having been said, anyone that followed the discussion would clearly see that my presentation would strictly adhere to the logic and language of the apostle while yours did not.

God bless.

What is the way Jesus said you will recognize a Christian or a false prophet? Hint: fruits. Can Jesus recognize a believer and a non-believer without ever seeing a single fruit? Yep. Can man w/out seeing the fruit? No. Then what is James contexually talking about when he says Abraham was justified by works; was he speaking in the context of “before God or before men?” Think about the context of visable fruits; God des not justify on the basis of works and that is what Paul said explicitly, which is why you cannot reconcile the two when you use you reasoning of the context that the works of Abraham were proof before God in the context of James. Wannan play connect the dots

 

[Calvin_95]

Calvin 95 in Christ,

Please show me in Catholic teaching that “one must be righteous BEFORE one can be saved.”

I mentioned in an earlier post that you did not know or understand Catholic teaching. This example further demonstrates the point. Please don’t make these kinds of statements…you waste everyone’s time.

You also accuse us of an “error in blending justification into and with sanctification.” In light of your prior remarks in that same post in quite clear that you are misrepresenting the Church’s teaching on the relationship of justification and sanctification. On that point I will simply ask you to keep studying.

Now for a question. Do you believe that we are saved only in justification or do you believe that sanctification is also “necessary” for salvation? Should be just a few before this one

God bless.

It is implict and using logic and reason that is the only conclusion one arrives at, which is why you have purgatory. See a post to Guam for further details on that. Should be just a 2-4 posts before this one.

 

[Calvin_95]

Those who were seeking to be justified by law? No! They were in the region of Galatia.Not those who were seeking to be justified by the principle of law.Not those who were seeking to be justified by the prinicple of law.Not those who were seeking to be justified by the principle of law.No one seeking to be justified by the principle of law (works) has eternal life.No not mine. Seeking to be justified by the principle of law Christ was of no benefit to them. Hence, they weren’t "Christ-ians."Their wanting to be justified by the principle of law (works), rather than being led to Christ that they would be “justified by faith” (Gal. 3:24).You don’t comprehend what you read. I, in fact, said they did hear it. What they did not do is BELIEVE it. But instead they sought to be justified by the principle of law (works).Those that were seeking instead to be justified by law never believed. That’s why they were seeking to be justified by law (works). Of course some did believe. But not those who were seeking to be justified by law (works). These were the one’s Paul was admonishing.

To “fall from grace” means after having heard the gospel of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ one instead seeks to be justified by the principle of law (works). Such a one has been “severed from Christ,” meaning Christ is of absolutely no benefit to him (Gal. 5:1-5)." This is what was happening in those churches in the region of Galatia. And Paul’s letter was sent there to curtail the spread of that “leaven” (Gal. 5:9) Lest it permeate throughout all the churches of that region. But alas, today that region is almost all Muslim. A totally works-based religion, and Christ still is of no benefit to them.

MD; I’m out of here; let me know where you go next. God bless and good day to all.

 

[kepha1]

Problem: You have totally ignored the nature of what a Christian is; this is a person who is in Christ and as such has a new nature from the “New Birth”, which means the Christian has the righteousness of Christ imputed to them.

*Psalm 51:1-2 - O God, blot out my transgressions, wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. *

This cleansing requires an inner change of heart. You believe that we are so depraved that God only covers our sins up by declaring us righteous (imputing Christ’s righteousness to us). The Catholic (and Scriptural view), however, is that God is powerful enough to blot out our sins and remove them. The view that God just declares us righteous by “covering us up,” denigrates the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, who continues the work of Christ through His work of justification and sanctification (infusing His grace into souls and changing the inner person).

*Matt. 5:3,5,8 - blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, and the pure of heart. *
*These are internal dispositions, not just an external reality. *

Matt. 5:6; Luke 6:21 - those who hunger for righteousness “may be filled.” It is an inner change, not snow covering up a dunghill.

*Matt. 5:20; Luke 1:6; Acts 10:35 - here are more examples of “doing” righteousness, not just being “imputed” external righteousness. We are not just defendants in a courtroom who have been exonerated. We are children of God endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit by whose grace we can become righteous. *

As for sin you overlook the simple matter that any sin forgiven was forgiven in the past since it was by His death, burial and resurrection whereby God was just in justifying the wicked. Bible 101.

I have no problem with that. And we are being saved: 1 Cor. 1:18 , 2 Cor. 2:15 Phil. 2: 1 Peter 1:9 - and saved in the future as well: Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

My theology is not mine, but it is God’s;

Then why did your theology that you say is God’s take 1500 years to show up?

read and understand the Scipture and quit letting someone else do the work for you; it is work and it is enjoyable. If you put as much time and energy into just reading and studying the word of God that you spend here; you would probably have a whole new perspective on many things.

OK, can you direct me to a verse that says God infallibly teaches individual Bible readers into error free understanding of the Scriptures apart from the Church?

Logic and reason; if you must be saved, being saved and will be saved in order to get to heaven, then to get saved one must be righteous before salvation, why do you think you invented the safety net called purgatory because they saw the hole in the theology and had to catch ever who falls into with the “purification net”, which is purgatory, which is no where in Scripture and where that evolved is a mystery to me.

Whoa! Red herring! This is about faith alone, not purgatory. I hope you join a thread or start one on the subject, you seem quite lost on what purgatory is. There is no need to be so insulting. Purgatory “evolved” from Judaism and that is all I have to say on the matter.

 

[kepha1]

You also don’t seem to realize that the NT is a CHRISTIAN BOOK, written by, for, and about CHRISTIANS. There is nothing in it that is not CHRISTIAN. Therefore, when the CHRISTIAN Paul writes to the CHristian Christians in Ephesus, saying “By grace you are saved through faith”, this is the foundation of CHRISTIANITY.

No, the Apostles and prophets are the foundation of Christianity, not a system of justification.

Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of “works,” lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.

This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves. (which Protestants cannot seem to grasp)

*Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul’s teaching on “works” referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for “good works” - a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace). *

Be careful you don’t mix up these two DIFFERENT terms for “works”, it seems to be a chronic error with those arguing for “faith alone”.

Protestant, pretending to be Catholic. tell how does the Catholic get to heaven w/out the purgatory? Faith alone in Christ alone or by faith based on works, like the Sacraments?

False dichotomy, misrepresentation of the Sacraments.

Would you lke to dance the “side-step” with me some more. Your church makes an exclusive claim that it is the true Church that Christ founded contrary to what all of the NT teaches and especially since the church is yet to be revealed; yet you claim it has been revealed so do I believe you or God? the true chirch are those of Christ’s elect; are you telling me that the Catholic church is the elect of God or that they have the supernatural ability to know who the elect of God are? that is you implication here. You know that is not true.

Your right. It is not true. Ecclesial communities are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. We didn’t separate from anybody, but Catholics are required to accept separated baptized Christians as brothers and sisters in the Lord. (CCC817,818, 819) Your posture is unnecessarily hostile.

I deleted the rest after reaching this portion of your post and I will not respond to any more of your posts from this point onward. People that throw rules in ones face; knowing there is no violation, which you do know I am speaking the truth because the rules are quite clear, which is why I “carefully choose” which forum to visit based on the rules and the phrase “choose your forum carefully” is emphasized in that section. Good day and good bye.

Let me tell you about the rules. Non-Catholics get away with murder in here. Catholics are held to a higher standard. You get to insult, misrepresent, twist and distort Catholic teaching, misquote the early Church Fathers, I could go on. I’ve had several posts deleted for being uncharitable. A mindless anti-Catholic bigot has to go way over the top before they are banned because in the end, banning them is therapeutic. Keep that in mind.

 

[kepha1]

Mostly ad hominem attacks; God likes to use an economy of words; why would He need to add alone when it is so oft and strongly implied in all of Scripture that one can scarcely overlook it? If it is not through faith alone, then it must be through faith plus something a man does, which then is self defeating because if through faith alone in Christ needs something added to it, then Christ is not enough and we might as well chuck the Bible.

No, the Bible has already been chucked and it wasn’t us. “Faith alone” only appears once in the Bible, where it is refuted. James 2:24 “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.”.

And you are really missing the point. Good works are not an addition to faith, good works are an integral part of faith. Love is a work, an act of the will. The so called reformers had no business removing love from faith. But I haven’t met a good Protestant who did not have love. You preach a falsehood, but you are exonerated by your virtue.

A “faith alone” Christian doesn’t need to love or manifest good works if his righteousness is imputed. You don’t really have to do anything. Just have faith. That is not found in Scripture, but I would bet that your own good actions (coming from God’s grace) as a Christian refutes the doctrine of “faith alone”.

James 2:24 has been chucked, and you cannot honestly come to terms with this verse.

What is the way Jesus said you will recognize a Christian or a false prophet? Hint: fruits. Can Jesus recognize a believer and a non-believer without ever seeing a single fruit? Yep. Can man w/out seeing the fruit? No. Then what is James contexually talking about when he says Abraham was justified by works; was he speaking in the context of “before God or before men?” Think about the context of visable fruits; God des not justify on the basis of works and that is what Paul said explicitly, which is why you cannot reconcile the two when you use you reasoning of the context that the works of Abraham were proof before God in the context of James. Wannan play connect the dots.

.Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God.

Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham’s justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham’s justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

*Gen. 14:19, 22-23 - Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything. *

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

*Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works. *

Which of my dots are connected incorrectly?

Italicized text is from http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html