Faith alone? Really?

[CatholicKnight3]

**Mathew chapter 7:21 **
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

**The Good Samaritan Parable. **

As Jesus was talking to His disciples, a certain lawyer stood up and asked, “Who is my neighbour?” And Jesus answered by telling them this story:

A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who robbed him, stripped him of his clothes, and, wounding him, left him on the road half dead. By chance there came a priest that way, and, as a teacher of religion to men, he should have stopped to help the poor man. Instead of this, he pretended not to see, and passed by on the other side of the road. Then there came by a Levite, who also, as an official of the church, should have given help. But he merely came and looked on the injured man, and passed on the other side as the priest had done.

Afterwards there came by a Samaritan, and, when he caught sight of the wounded Jew, he went over to him and was very sorry for him. Now the Jews hated the Samaritans, and were their enemies, so that it would not have been surprising if he, also, had done as the priest and the Levite did. But, no! Though it was his enemy, he could not pass him by and leave him on the road, perhaps to die. He examined his wounds and bound them up; doing all that he could to soothe them. Then he lifted him carefully on his own beast, and brought him to the nearest inn, and took care of him through the night. The next day, when the Samaritan departed, he paid the man who kept the inn, and said to him, “Take care of this poor man until he is well, and whatever it may cost for his lodging and food, that I will pay thee when I come again.”

“Which of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among thieves?” The lawyer answered, “He that showed mercy unto him.” Then said Jesus, “Go, and do thou likewise.”

Matthew 25

33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

**John ch 19:29 **

28 Do not be surprised at this, for the hour is coming when the dead will leave their graves at the sound of his voice:

29 those who did good will come forth to life; and those who did evil will come forth to judgement.

Mathew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

I Corthinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Romans 2:6-8
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by apatient bcontinuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and cimmortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my** works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.**

 

[Paul2274]

Excellent post… saved that one for future debates!

Thanks,
Paul

 

[fpesce]

**Mathew chapter 7:21 **
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

**The Good Samaritan Parable. **

As Jesus was talking to His disciples, a certain lawyer stood up and asked, “Who is my neighbour?” And Jesus answered by telling them this story:

A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who robbed him, stripped him of his clothes, and, wounding him, left him on the road half dead. By chance there came a priest that way, and, as a teacher of religion to men, he should have stopped to help the poor man. Instead of this, he pretended not to see, and passed by on the other side of the road. Then there came by a Levite, who also, as an official of the church, should have given help. But he merely came and looked on the injured man, and passed on the other side as the priest had done.

Afterwards there came by a Samaritan, and, when he caught sight of the wounded Jew, he went over to him and was very sorry for him. Now the Jews hated the Samaritans, and were their enemies, so that it would not have been surprising if he, also, had done as the priest and the Levite did. But, no! Though it was his enemy, he could not pass him by and leave him on the road, perhaps to die. He examined his wounds and bound them up; doing all that he could to soothe them. Then he lifted him carefully on his own beast, and brought him to the nearest inn, and took care of him through the night. The next day, when the Samaritan departed, he paid the man who kept the inn, and said to him, “Take care of this poor man until he is well, and whatever it may cost for his lodging and food, that I will pay thee when I come again.”

“Which of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among thieves?” The lawyer answered, “He that showed mercy unto him.” Then said Jesus, “Go, and do thou likewise.”

Matthew 25

33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

**John ch 19:29 **

28 Do not be surprised at this, for the hour is coming when the dead will leave their graves at the sound of his voice:

29 those who did good will come forth to life; and those who did evil will come forth to judgement.

Mathew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

I Corthinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Romans 2:6-8
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by apatient bcontinuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and cimmortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my** works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.**

okay, then,

FAITH and LOVE alone!

 

[UnumCorpus]

The debate between faith vs good works is a case of a false dichotomy. It’s true that some Christian churches emphasize one over the other, but it is just silly to claim that salvation is based on only one and not the other. I just love C.S. Lewis’ perspective on the matter:

“There are two parodies of the truth which different sets of Christians have, in the past, been accused by other Christians of believing: perhaps they may make the truth clearer. One set were accused of saying, ‘Good actions are all that matters. The best good action is charity. The best kind of charity is giving money. The best thing to give money to is the Church. So hand us over ₤10,000 and we will see you through.’ The answer to that nonsense, of course, would be that good actions done for that motive, done with the idea that Heaven can be bought, would not be good actions at all, but only commercial speculations. The other set were accused of saying, ‘Faith is all that matters. Consequently, if you have faith, it doesn’t matter what you do. Sin away, my lad, and have a good time and Christ will see that it makes no difference in the end.’ The answers to that nonsense is that, if what you call your ‘faith’ in Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what he says, then it is not Faith at all — not faith or trust in Him, but only intellectual acceptance of some theory of Him.”
-Mere Christianity

Obviously good works by themselves is not enough, otherwise atheists who do good things could be saved on that merit alone. And faith without good works is dead…if you claim to have faith but do no good works, it leads one to question whether you truly have faith in the first place.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

The debate between faith vs good works is a case of a false dichotomy. It’s true that some Christian churches emphasize one over the other, but it is just silly to claim that salvation is based on only one and not the other. I just love C.S. Lewis’ perspective on the matter:

“There are two parodies of the truth which different sets of Christians have, in the past, been accused by other Christians of believing: perhaps they may make the truth clearer. One set were accused of saying, ‘Good actions are all that matters. The best good action is charity. The best kind of charity is giving money. The best thing to give money to is the Church. So hand us over ₤10,000 and we will see you through.’ The answer to that nonsense, of course, would be that good actions done for that motive, done with the idea that Heaven can be bought, would not be good actions at all, but only commercial speculations. The other set were accused of saying, ‘Faith is all that matters. Consequently, if you have faith, it doesn’t matter what you do. Sin away, my lad, and have a good time and Christ will see that it makes no difference in the end.’ The answers to that nonsense is that, if what you call your ‘faith’ in Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what he says, then it is not Faith at all — not faith or trust in Him, but only intellectual acceptance of some theory of Him.”
-Mere Christianity

Obviously good works by themselves is not enough, otherwise atheists who do good things could be saved on that merit alone. And faith without good works is dead…if you claim to have faith but do no good works, it leads one to question whether you truly have faith in the first place.

Yes, all of this is true.

Lets also keep in mind about Romans 9.

Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, x“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,1 but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, y“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

We already know that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

The interesting thing about Mathew 25:31-46 is Christ claims that the TRUE righteous will ask, “When did you ever do these things for you?”

Christ then claims that each time you did any of these thigns to the least of my brethren, you did it unto ME.

So, who are these righteous that are serving the least of HIS brethren? Who will be asking when did we see YOU? Christians know this verse very well. It will not be Christians asking when did we see YOU. So, who are these righteous people that will be asking this?

The point is when Christ says blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy, lets take HIM at HIS word. What HE did not say was, Blessed are those that accept ME as their personal Lord and savior for they shall have mercy.

The bottom line as a body of believers (we were suppose to be ONE body as Paul writes and as Christ desired) we should fully understand that when Christ says I am the way, the truth and the life, that means HE will have the last word and where people go. Consider Romans 9, and know if HE chooses an atheist at the end, then that is what HE does.

I am already confident that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. I am also not saying that the atheist will just be able to remain in his UNBELIEF. However, I do not want to get into the mind of Christ and tell people whom HE will choose and Who HE will not.

Christians have been finger pointing for 2000 years now, and I know HE said emphatically to not do that.

 

[UnumCorpus]

Consider Romans 9, and know if HE chooses an atheist at the end, then that is what HE does.

I am already confident that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. I am also not saying that the atheist will just be able to remain in his UNBELIEF. However, I do not want to get into the mind of Christ and tell people whom HE will choose and Who HE will not.

Christians have been finger pointing for 2000 years now, and I know HE said emphatically to not do that.

Oh yes, I agree that Christians should not be finger pointing. Certainly, we do not know for sure who will be in heaven and who will not be…we are not supposed to be judging each other’s hearts.

What is true though is that one cannot be accepted into God’s Kingdom if their hearts are rejecting Him. The whole concept of “hell” is that it is really a separation from God. So if someone rejects God in their heart, then they will be eternally separated from Him unless they repent. Those who chose to follow God through their own free will have a greater reward than those who do not surrender to Him until they are compelled to do so in the Second Coming. Remember John 20:29: “then Jesus told (Thomas), ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’”

The bottom line as a body of believers (we were suppose to be ONE body as Paul writes and as Christ desired)

I agree, hence my user name

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Oh yes, I agree that Christians should not be finger pointing. Certainly, we do not know for sure who will be in heaven and who will not be…we are not supposed to be judging each other’s hearts.

What is true though is that one cannot be accepted into God’s Kingdom if their hearts are rejecting Him. The whole concept of “hell” is that it is really a separation from God. So if someone rejects God in their heart, then they will be eternally separated from Him unless they repent. Those who chose to follow God through their own free will have a greater reward than those who do not surrender to Him until they are compelled to do so in the Second Coming. Remember John 20:29: “then Jesus told (Thomas), ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’”

I agree, hence my user name

I agree with everything. Just that we need to understand that ALL judgement has been given to Christ.

He will choose who he chooses.

Again, we do not know what is in a persons heart.

Like I mentioned. Christ will not be subject to our interpretations or our standards. When he said he will separate the goats from the sheep and he will tell the sheep that the reason HE will choose them, is because they fed Him. clothed Him, and visited Him.

Since in that passage, the true righteous state that they do not even know they are serving when they feed the least of his Brethren tells me that we do not need to be consciously aware that we are serving Christ when we are actually serving Him.

Remember, the TRUE RIGHTEOUS will be asking, “When did we do these things?”

Most if not all devout Christians are very well aware of this gospel reading. So, I am not sure who He is referring to, when he said there will be those (TRUE RIGHTEOUS) that will asking that question. All I do know is there will be people asking Him that question, cause they do not realize they are. That is the given, cause Christ said it.

Or when HE said blessed are the merciful. If we believe that the merciful are limited to Christians, well I can tell you a story about this Buddhist I know.

She volunteers her time and had been doing it for over 20 years. She is a hair dresser. Very soft spoken. Kind, the whole bit. She has been going to the Hospice center for over 20 years, and takes care of those patients that are dying. I saw it. SHe offers them comfort. She is using her talent to serve Christ and she has no idea she is doing it.

I do not know where she is going, but I sure know what she is doing.

Mathew 25:31-46

The word…before my eyes, came alive.

 

[CarolNoel]

Great post and great information. Good work.

 

[JonNC]

**Mathew chapter 7:21 **
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

**The Good Samaritan Parable. **

As Jesus was talking to His disciples, a certain lawyer stood up and asked, “Who is my neighbour?” And Jesus answered by telling them this story:

A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who robbed him, stripped him of his clothes, and, wounding him, left him on the road half dead. By chance there came a priest that way, and, as a teacher of religion to men, he should have stopped to help the poor man. Instead of this, he pretended not to see, and passed by on the other side of the road. Then there came by a Levite, who also, as an official of the church, should have given help. But he merely came and looked on the injured man, and passed on the other side as the priest had done.

Afterwards there came by a Samaritan, and, when he caught sight of the wounded Jew, he went over to him and was very sorry for him. Now the Jews hated the Samaritans, and were their enemies, so that it would not have been surprising if he, also, had done as the priest and the Levite did. But, no! Though it was his enemy, he could not pass him by and leave him on the road, perhaps to die. He examined his wounds and bound them up; doing all that he could to soothe them. Then he lifted him carefully on his own beast, and brought him to the nearest inn, and took care of him through the night. The next day, when the Samaritan departed, he paid the man who kept the inn, and said to him, “Take care of this poor man until he is well, and whatever it may cost for his lodging and food, that I will pay thee when I come again.”

“Which of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among thieves?” The lawyer answered, “He that showed mercy unto him.” Then said Jesus, “Go, and do thou likewise.”

Matthew 25

33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

**John ch 19:29 **

28 Do not be surprised at this, for the hour is coming when the dead will leave their graves at the sound of his voice:

29 those who did good will come forth to life; and those who did evil will come forth to judgement.

Mathew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

I Corthinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Romans 2:6-8
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by apatient bcontinuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and cimmortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my** works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.**

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

 

[PJM]

=CatholicKnight3;10607941]**Mathew chapter 7:21 **
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

**The Good Samaritan Parable. **

As Jesus was talking to His disciples, a certain lawyer stood up and asked, “Who is my neighbour?” And Jesus answered by telling them this story:

A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who robbed him, stripped him of his clothes, and, wounding him, left him on the road half dead. By chance there came a priest that way, and, as a teacher of religion to men, he should have stopped to help the poor man. Instead of this, he pretended not to see, and passed by on the other side of the road. Then there came by a Levite, who also, as an official of the church, should have given help. But he merely came and looked on the injured man, and passed on the other side as the priest had done.

Afterwards there came by a Samaritan, and, when he caught sight of the wounded Jew, he went over to him and was very sorry for him. Now the Jews hated the Samaritans, and were their enemies, so that it would not have been surprising if he, also, had done as the priest and the Levite did. But, no! Though it was his enemy, he could not pass him by and leave him on the road, perhaps to die. He examined his wounds and bound them up; doing all that he could to soothe them. Then he lifted him carefully on his own beast, and brought him to the nearest inn, and took care of him through the night. The next day, when the Samaritan departed, he paid the man who kept the inn, and said to him, “Take care of this poor man until he is well, and whatever it may cost for his lodging and food, that I will pay thee when I come again.”

“Which of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among thieves?” The lawyer answered, “He that showed mercy unto him.” Then said Jesus, “Go, and do thou likewise.”

Matthew 25

33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

**John ch 19:29 **

28 Do not be surprised at this, for the hour is coming when the dead will leave their graves at the sound of his voice:

29 those who did good will come forth to life; and those who did evil will come forth to judgement.

Mathew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

I Corthinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Romans 2:6-8
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by apatient bcontinuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and cimmortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

James 2:14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my** works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.**

JAMES 2:24
KING JAMES BIBLE

**24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only. **

:

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I think the OP assumes that what sola fide Christians mean by “faith alone” is a pure intellectual assent to Christianity without anything else.

And that’s not what sola fide Christians believe whatsoever. Works are part of faith. Faith is not only something that you “have” or you “believe” but something that leaves a mark on the person. A person who simply “believes” does not necessarily have faith. A Christian who goes out into the world to spread the Gospel does.

I think the differences that Protestants and Catholics believe to have over this issue are more imagined than real.

 

[PJM]

=FabiusMaximus;10610328]I think the OP assumes that what sola fide Christians mean by “faith alone” is a pure intellectual assent to Christianity without anything else.

And that’s not what sola fide Christians believe whatsoever. Works are part of faith. Faith is not only something that you “have” or you “believe” but something that leaves a mark on the person. A person who simply “believes” does not necessarily have faith. A Christian who goes out into the world to spread the Gospel does.

I think the differences that Protestants and Catholics believe to have over this issue are more imagined than real.

Dear frewind in Christ,

Perhaps your prior churches teacing is not on Faith Alone; [even faith through grace alone], but htis does remain the primary philosophy of MANY, including Fundementalist-christians.

While your seeking a new church, please consider these facts [biblically provable too]

Because there is only one TRUE God

Logically there can be ONLY One True set of Faith beliefs by this One God

And Christ Founded only One chuurch with its One SET of Faith beliefs.

Truth is and must be singular per defined item

Certainly Jesus did not wait for The Great Eastern Schism; King Henry VIII or Martin Luther to make HIS Teachings; HIS One True and COMPLETE Faith known:shrug:

PRAY MUCH my friend. The HS has blessed you and lead you to CAF for a specific reason. Amen.

 

[Publisher]

I think the OP assumes that what sola fide Christians mean by “faith alone” is a pure intellectual assent to Christianity without anything else.

And that’s not what sola fide Christians believe whatsoever. Works are part of faith. Faith is not only something that you “have” or you “believe” but something that leaves a mark on the person. A person who simply “believes” does not necessarily have faith. A Christian who goes out into the world to spread the Gospel does.

I think the differences that Protestants and Catholics believe to have over this issue are more imagined than real.

Agreed friend. Good works do not save us…we do good works becuase we are saved. “It is not I that lives, but Christ that lives within me.” Good works are part of WHO we are, good works do not make us WHO we are…we become new creatures in Christ by grace thru faith in Him and Him alone.

Intellectual statements of “belief” with no faith are just statements and mean nothing. But a heart that truly turns to Christ in faith is changed…born again…we “put on Christ”…we do good works because that is NOW who we are…good works are a part of us now…good works are the “proof” that our faith in the work of Christ is authentic and not just “intellectual ascent”…there is no such thing as ‘cheap faith"…just like there is no such thing as "cheap grace’…they may be concepts…but because they are “cheap” they mean nothing.

It is by grace thru faith alone which saves us…good works are the product of who we are…without them there is no real faith.

When I stand before God on that Last Day…I will stand in confidence, not because of what I have done…but because of what He has done for me. It is He that lives within me…it is He that does the good works thru me…I am His New Creation.

 

[Kmfioc]

I have been trying to understand the difference between the catholic (faith plus works) and the Protestant (faith alone) ideas for some time. While they sounds completely different when put that way, when you actually get down to it, it seem that they are basically saying the same thing.

Practically speaking, when it comes down to how we should live our lives, you need to have faith and do good works from both perspectives. I have tried reading multiple sources and listened to several debates and it seems to me they are basically saying the same thing when it comes to how we should be living our lives. Maybe I am not smart enough or found someone to explain the actual difference yet, but this debate it so much harder for me to understand than sola scripture for example.

For example, in the Methodist church that I have been attending they teach that we have a conversion, then must live our lives to do our best to become holy and that we can lose our salvation if we turn away from God, this seems the same as the Catholic Church. But the Book of Discipline it states that they follow Luther’s faith alone formula. I cannot differentiate.

However, the subject of authority is what has me looking into the Catholic church. And the communion of saints is such a beautiful doctrine, along with the view of the Eucharist that has me feeling like I’m really missing out on something by not being in the Catholic Church.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

However, the subject of authority is what has me looking into the Catholic church. And the communion of saints is such a beautiful doctrine, along with the view of the Eucharist that has me feeling like I’m really missing out on something by not being in the Catholic Church.

Authority for me is also a big factor if not theee factor. Little things that sometimes get over looked. Like when ever the disciples are listed in scripture, Peter is always named first. When John ran to the tomb, ahead of Peter, when he got there, he did not go in. Instead he waited for Peter, out of respect.

Here are one of the many things I have been struggling with in regards to works etc. Look at the way Billy Graham was viciously judged for saying this on Larry King.

youtube.com/watch?v=6YPKdbpVT6I

When I get into talks with certain protestants in regards to who will be going to heaven, my stance is it will be Christ that will make that judgement. To that they ask me if I think Christ will choose non-Christians. To that I say if he does, then he does. I am certainly not going to say he won’t cause he can’t.

I do not think Christ will be subject to our interpretations or our standards. When HE said he will separate the goats from the sheep and he will tell the sheep that the reason HE will choose them, is because they fed Him. clothed Him, and visited Him.

Read Mathew 25:31-46

Since in that passage, the true righteous state that they do not even know they are serving CHRIST when they feed the least of HIS Brethren tells me that we do not need to be consciously aware that we are serving Christ when we are actually serving Him.

Remember, the TRUE RIGHTEOUS will be asking, “When did we do these things?”

Most if not all devout Christians are very well aware of this gospel reading. So, I am not sure who He is referring to, when he said there will be those (TRUE RIGHTEOUS) that will asking that question. All I do know is there will be people asking Him that question, cause they do not realize they are. That is the given, cause Christ said it.

Or when HE said blessed are the merciful. If we believe that the merciful are limited to Christians, well I can tell you a story about this Buddhist I know.

She volunteers her time and had been doing it for over 20 years. She is a hair dresser. Very soft spoken. Kind, the whole bit. She has been going to the Hospice center for over 20 years, and takes care of those patients that are dying. I saw it. SHe offers them comfort. She is using her talent to serve Christ and she has no idea she is doing it.

I do not know where she is going, but I sure know what she is doing.

Mathew 25:31-46.

I cannot believe that there are Christians that would have the audacity to judge Billy Graham for saying he will allow Christ to make those judgements. Christians actually claim that Billy Graham is saying Christ is not the only way.

No, when one says Christ will have the last judgement, that NOT saying Christ it not the only way. It is saying Christ has the last word and HE will separate the goats and sheep.

Christ says I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. None comes to the father but through ME. That tells me Christ has the last word. Is that untrue? Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive MY mercy.

Two things did NOT HAPPEN on Calvary. One, the Lord did not take away our free will. Two, the Lord did not give man the LAST WORD. Meaning, when someone says you must accept Christ as your PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR, tells me people are indicating WE have the say on where we go. Also, to me, the notion of PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR gives an implication that means that OUR PERSONAL interpretation of the bible is truly all that matters. Are you understanding the distinction and the inherent danger of this subtle difference?

Christians for eons did not have a written scripture to quickly refer to. Christians did not have carefully printed little pocket bibles to refer to. For centuries most Christians (perhaps as much as 2%) did not know how to read or write. So, how were Christans guided for centuries? What did the early Christians rely on? There was not even a canon that we all know today until the latter half of the 4th century. The early Christians relied on the ORAL TRADITIONS passed down by the first disciples. They relied on the AUTHORITY of the Church, which is the PILLAR OF TRUTH (1 Timothy 3:15).

Stained glass window, or statues, or pictures were made for the sake of those that did not read and write. Most of the Christians. Can Christians (protestants and Catholics) ever take time to consider the conditions that existed for years? We should try and stop applying our paradigms to those conditions that existed for many many years.

 

[FireDragon76]

This debate is rehashing Reformation-era polemics. There are joint-statements on justification between Catholics and Lutherans. Methodists have also signed onto those statements. I know many Episcopalians and Anglicans who would also deny there is any substantial, real difference between what Rome teaches and what they teach in the area of justification. The issue is more about emphasis.

 

[rfournier103]

If one looks at “faith alone” in it’s literal sense, than there really is NO basis for it in Scripture. In fact, “faith alone” does not appear in the Bible al all, does it?

Let us look at Rev. 22:11-12… “Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.”

Italics and bold are mine.

If we are to be saved by faith; does not our faith in Jesus Christ mean that we must live here on earth as He has commanded us? If all we need is faith alone to be saved, what need have we of ministers, priests, prayer, going to church, the Bible, baptism, and all the other Sacraments?

My faith in Jesus Christ means that not only do I believe in Him (ie: Son of God, died for us, rose again), but that I must put His teachings into practice.

I think many Christians may not understand what “faith” in Christ really means.

 

[PJM]

=Publisher;10615238]Agreed friend. Good works do not save us…we do good works becuase we are saved. “It is not I that lives, but Christ that lives within me.” Good works are part of WHO we are, good works do not make us WHO we are…we become new creatures in Christ by grace thru faith in Him and Him alone.

Intellectual statements of “belief” with no faith are just statements and mean nothing. But a heart that truly turns to Christ in faith is changed…born again…we “put on Christ”…we do good works because that is NOW who we are…good works are a part of us now…good works are the “proof” that our faith in the work of Christ is authentic and not just “intellectual ascent”…there is no such thing as ‘cheap faith"…just like there is no such thing as "cheap grace’…they may be concepts…but because they are “cheap” they mean nothing

It is by grace thru faith alone which saves us…good works are the product of who we are…without them there is no real faith…

Really

Your comments on works is RIGHT ON:thumbsup:

Faith even through grace BY ITSELF CANNOT BE.

Biblical supported conditions/positions for meriting ones possible eternal Salvation.

Believing in God, being baptized, being a loyal member of the Catholic Church , loving God, loving our neighbor, keeping the Ten Commandments receiving the sacraments, especially Holy Communion and Confession, praying and doing good works and dying in a state of grace.”

And yes; given the space I can prove this.

 

[JonNC]

=rfournier103;10616688]If one looks at “faith alone” in it’s literal sense, than there really is NO basis for it in Scripture. In fact, “faith alone” does not appear in the Bible al all, does it?

Its “literal sense” is the sense that, for Lutherans, our confessions describe it, not what others do, be they Catholic or non-Catholic.

Let us look at Rev. 22:11-12… “Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.”

No Lutheran would disagree.

If we are to be saved by faith; does not our faith in Jesus Christ mean that we must live here on earth as He has commanded us? If all we need is faith alone to be saved, what need have we of ministers, priests, prayer, going to church, the Bible, baptism, and all the other Sacraments?

This is what I mean by the misunderstanding of faith alone. By grace through faith is the way we access justification. All of those things you mentioned are the way the Spirit helps us to maintain our faith, bring us forgiveness of sins, etc. They are all necessary for the regenerate.

My faith in Jesus Christ means that not only do I believe in Him (ie: Son of God, died for us, rose again), but that I must put His teachings into practice.

Agreed.

I think many Christians may not understand what “faith” in Christ really means.

Agreed again.
Luther - *“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” *

Jon

 

[FireDragon76]

Really
Believing in God, being baptized, being a loyal member of the Catholic Church , loving God, loving our neighbor, keeping the Ten Commandments receiving the sacraments, especially Holy Communion and Confession, praying and doing good works and dying in a state of grace.”

And yes; given the space I can prove this.

All good advice… but the Protestant perspective is this: the reality is, we are sinners, we inevitably fall short due to what we are. Then what is the “good news”? The good news is that Christ died for our sins and rose for our justification because God loves us despite our sins. He has high standards but he’s always merciful. It is not about what we must do to be saved, but what God has done for us in Christ. The works we do that mean anything must be done in love as a result of God first giving us that means to truly be free. Otherwise the Christian religion can just become a pharasaical legalism where people go through the motions out of fear or obedience, but inwardly they are not really changed., they are still the same selfish creatures they always were. We are used to making idols of religiosity, our own piousness and self-justification, as rationalizations for our fundamentally selfish, unloving habits, and Jesus point throughout the Gospels is that our piety is just not good enough for God and our selfishness just will not do.