Faith alone? Really?

[fpesce]

"Justification is the same for everyone "

Yes. We receive our justification through baptism, in union with the atoning death of Christ of course.

So very Catholic!

I believe that justification can be increased by our good works and that good works are not merely a fruit of justification.

Yet the bible says otherwise. in Romans 4:1

What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh?

2 Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, **he has reason to boast but this was not so in the sight of God. **;
3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due.
5 But when one does not work, yet believes, in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record.”

---

How would you interpret that?

 

[PRmerger]

Yet the bible says otherwise. in Romans 4:1

What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2* Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, **he has reason to boast but this was not so in the sight of God. *; 3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. 5 **But when one does not work,/**B] yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record.”

---

I am confused about what you are refuting. The Bible says otherwise to what? Which of the statements I made is contrary to the Bible, fpesce?

 

[benjohnson]

Weird day… I just got through talking with a Catholic friend of mine who’s going through their “long dark night” and wondering about God.

The conversation turned to salvation, and I’m really glad he reached out to me.

Here’s where I wish Catholics would sort of listen to us Lutherans a teeny-tiny-bit.

In a way I think we all understand that no amount of work could ever ‘repay’ God. But that sometimes we just need to accept that God’s Grace is a truly free gift. A gift we respond to (of course!!!) - but that we can’t ever measure up to his Grace. And that is a good thing - because without an infinite Grace, we would be left with the reality that we’re minds and souls living in decaying animal bodies.

So keep your Catholic understanding of Faith and Grace and Works, but understand that under all of that, God really is truly infinite. That we can’t ‘repay’ Him. That He is strong and we are weak. And rejoice in this!

…

I’ve personally come to the conclusion in a way that Catholic understanding of Grace and Faith comes to just about the same point as the Lutheran understanding. But that sometimes we need to understand the different approaches - the Catholic approach speaks to our mighty minds, and the Lutheran approach speaks to our fragile souls.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

So keep your Catholic understanding of Faith and Grace and Works, but understand that under all of that, God really is truly infinite. That we can’t ‘repay’ Him. That He is strong and we are weak. And rejoice in this!

Brother,

None of us can ever repay our Lord.

Our position is against easy believism and the insistence of:

1. Isolating Faith when it is never Alone.
2. Isolating the Body of Christ by dividing the authority of Church and Scriptures.
3. Pretending that we are not accountable for anything because we “believe” in Jesus.

Just like Heaven is for Real, Hell is for Real.

We are commanded to preach the Gospel in its fullness and all together, never Alone.

Peace,

Jose

 

[benjohnson]

Brother,

None of us can ever repay our Lord.

Our position is against easy believism and the insistence of:

1. Isolating Faith when it is never Alone.

We Lutherans did a disservice to us and the world by even creating the bombastic phrase of “Faith Alone” - as I hope you see, we don’t leave it at that. It’s only the beginning of the teaching. In creating these phrases - we were countering what we saw as a reliance on works, but as is so often in this world, the ‘correction’ can often be as troubling as the ‘problem.’

 

[Isaiah45_9]

We Lutherans did a disservice to us and the world by even creating the bombastic phrase of “Faith Alone” - as I hope you see, we don’t leave it at that. It’s only the beginning of the teaching. In creating these phrases - we were countering what we saw as a reliance on works, but as is so often in this world, the ‘correction’ can often be as troubling as the ‘problem.’

You know, I am very close to Lutheranism and it is the second most theological work I have read after Catholicism, even more than Orthodox. Probably because of the Cross-centered preaching that encompasses the most traditional and conservative branches of the denomination (LCMS and WELS).

I even enjoy reading Luther (The Bondage of the Will, Commentary on Galatians and Romans, Small Catechism, Concerning Christian Liberty, 95 thesis, etc) when he is not going off on something or going on a rant.

But there are times when we write/say things when we are angry that we truly don’t want to say. You can tell a lot from a theologian by studying his life (specifically his fears). I don’t remember the book but there is an account where Luther said that he saw Jesus as coming down from the heavens with a fiery sword in His hands. This shows that he dealt with guilt from personal choices and that our Lord’s Words truly pierced through him.

While fighting the establishment (I will admit that there were things being done by men at the Church that were not proper or more importantly, Christian) he had to find a way to justify his fears. It didn’t help that the Church didn’t pay much attention to him until it was too late and the political powers that be were already in motion by the time the Diet of Worms happened.

In my fallible opinion, Faith Alone has more to do with Luther liberating himself than him creating a new denomination.

Sadly, ALL those that wanted to rebel against the Church took the phrase and ran with it. We all know what that lead to…

So please don’t think that I direct my opinions to Lutherans specifically, but that they are generally directed at Protestant denominations in general. Too many to address each one individually in one post…

With that said, I have to say that I enjoy the level of charity you, Jon and other Lutheran friends demonstrate on this board. And I pray and hope that I can be just as charitable in my responses.

YBiC,

Jose

 

[EIF5A]

We Lutherans did a disservice to us and the world by even creating the bombastic phrase of “Faith Alone” - as I hope you see, we don’t leave it at that. It’s only the beginning of the teaching. In creating these phrases - we were countering what we saw as a reliance on works, but as is so often in this world, the ‘correction’ can often be as troubling as the ‘problem.’

Exactly. Faith is necessary and sufficient foundation, but not the entirety of salvation.

 

[pablope]

My apologies, it was not my intention. I’m new to forum posting and just wanted to answer the questions addressed to me in one post.

Let me add some tidbits:

What I meant was that whatever a person does or works, his heart should be in the right place. That is, it should belong to the Lord. I didn’t mean to say that everything about the Lord is the heart. Empty actions are meaningless before Him.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

I don’t mean to intrude, I just wish to add something small.

People who think that religion is to be practiced seeking only an eternal reward, are mistaken with regards to God. Do you think of God as a banker who only looks at the numbers? the only valid law for God is love.

He who truly loves will always consider himself in debt, and the last thing in his mind will be that his love be rewarded. This is why Jesus taught us to give alms, trying that our left hand not know what our right hand does because receiving alms is almost always a humiliation, only alleviated by the love with which it is given.

The only kind of alms that does not hurt, comes from the one whom fully identifies with the person in need, and shares with him from the much or the little that he has. In this way there is no room for vanity in the one who gives, or humiliation in the one who receives.

Do you expect your loved ones to give you some kind of a reward for loving them? thats a form of trying to buy love.

If there was a reward in heaven for the amount of works stemming from love/charity, than there would have to be some kind of shanty town in heaven. there would be rich and poor in heaven if that were the case and obviously that is not the case.

Thank you for reading
Josh

Good stuff right here.