Faith Alone Salvation .... any examples of in Scripture ?

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brb3 said:
A – Nope. Normally speaking, the order for an Adult is hearing the Good News Gospel via preaching / scripture / evangelization, study of the CCC ---- then the heart / mind is convicted of sin, then one repents via confession, desires water baptism, and finally is Confirmed in HS.
The HS draws one to confess, be baptized and desire confirmation. Once this happens … then the HS enters [indwells] the Convert, marking the soul with God’s abiding presence.

B – only in cases of infant baptism, where confession precedes Confirmation in HS. Confirmation normally follows Baptism.
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A] So what you are saying is the Holy Spirit is with me [but not Indwelling me] as i hear and study and convicting me of sin and will stay with me up till i repent get baptised and Confirmed. Then i will recieve the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit ?
 
If you do not act on your faith, how can you then have faith? If you had faith, you would then have to act on it if you truly believed it. I mean, if you really believed that Jesus is Lord and that you have to uphold the commandments and love your neighbor as yourself, wouldn’t you then have to act upon it? In that regards, faith truly is dead, as it is not working inside you to its goal.
 
Bookcat said:
Pope Benedict XVI on Faith and Works in Paul:

(Earlier audience)
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

(Two audiences from the Year of St. Paul)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)
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Read the above.

"“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ." ~ Pope Benedict XVI

" Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith." -Pope Benedict XVI
 
The Good Thief:

"Then there is the faith of the Good Thief: a faith barely outlined but sufficient to assure him salvation: “Today you will be with me in Paradise” . This “with me” is crucial. Yes, it is this that saves him. Of course, the good thief is on the cross like Jesus, but above all he is on the Cross with Jesus. And, unlike the other evildoer and all those who taunt him, he does not ask Jesus to come done from the Cross nor to make him come down. Instead he says: “remember me when you come into your kingdom”.

The Good Thief sees Jesus on the Cross, disfigured and unrecognizable and yet he entrusts himself to him as to a king, indeed as to the King. The good thief believes what was written on the tablet over Jesus’ head: “The King of the Jews”. He believed and entrusted himself. For this reason he was already, immediately, in the “today” of God, in Paradise, because Paradise is this: being with Jesus, being with God."

~ Pope Benedict XVI November 2010

“The good thief comes to his senses before Jesus and repents, he realizes he is facing the Son of God who makes the very Face of God visible, and begs him; “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingly power” (v. 42). The Lord’s answer to this prayer goes far beyond the request: in fact he says: “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (v. 43). Jesus knows that he is entering into direct communion with the Father and reopening to man the way to God’s paradise. Thus, with this response, he gives the firm hope that God’s goodness can also touch us, even at the very last moment of life, and that sincere prayer, even after a wrong life, encounters the open arms of the good Father who awaits the return of his son.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Feb 2012

" one of them, aware of his sins, opens himself to truth, arrives at faith and prays “the King of the Jews”: “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom” (Lk 23:42).

From the One who “is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (Col 1:17) the so-called “Good Thief” straight away receives forgiveness and the joy of entering the Kingdom of Heaven. “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). With these words, Jesus, from the throne of the Cross welcomes every human being with infinite mercy."

~ Pope Benedict XVI 2010 Nov
 
shaky said:
A] So what you are saying is the Holy Spirit is with me [but not Indwelling me] as i hear and study and convicting me of sin and will stay with me up till i repent get baptised and Confirmed. Then i will recieve the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit ?
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Probably …

Here’s what scripture teaches, in Acts 18-19. Apollos was a strong defender of the faith, and mightily able to promote Christianity. But, when he encountered Paul … Paul was convinced something wasn’t ideal for Apollos. And he asked him if he had yet received the HS ? Apollos responded he had no idea about the HS, had not even heard of it. Paul learned Apollos had only been baptized by John the Baptizer, not by Jesus’s disciples. So, when Apollos was baptized in the name of Jesus, and when Paul CONFIRMED Apollos with laying on of hands, to anoint with HS … Apollos first received the INDWELLING of H.S.

So, the Catholic Sacraments of Water Baptism, Confession & Confirmation are essential to being ‘marked’ internally with the indwelling H.S. Paul realized it is not enuf to know and talk of Christ in theoretical terms. We must receive the essential Sacraments … in order to receive the Indwelling of H.S. And, this scriptural account of Apollos confirms that it is essential to obtain our ‘Baptism of Fire’ Confirmation in the HS ]. When we receive the Fire of HS … our faith is no longer theory, but certitude ! When the HS marks us … we are able to move from theory to fact [certainty]. We receive the Paraclete … and it is a gamechanger event. All things are new for us.

This is why CONFIRMATION is the final Sacrament in Christian initiation. And, thereafter, we are able to receive the Eucharist. Until I was Confirmed … I had no clue what the HS was. I was just as Apollos, a believer, but an incomplete one. The Sacraments are essential to Salvation. Each Sacrament confers a special grace to us. If only one was complete in itself … we wouldn’t have the Sacred ‘initial’ 3 … [Water Baptism, Confession, and Confirmation].
 
Considering the human person in its parts instead of its whole is always problematic.
 
brb3 said:
Perhaps the Thief on Cross ? A type of ‘deathbed confession’ ! His story of salvation,… [publically praying a ‘sinner’s prayer’] … has perhaps brought more people to repentance / confession, than all others.

Is his salvation unique in all scripture ? If he had lived longer, would he of needed to do more, to obtain final salvation ?
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We are saved by Grace alone and we do FIRST attain State of Grace by FAITH ALONE by acting according to Prevenient Grace! The faith we have to approach the sacrament is sufficient to be saved. It is either through this faith of ours or that of our parents that we are first freed from original through the merits of Christ, as we are brought to baptism.

The difference between Protestant and Catholic view differs on this and after it. The Catholic view is that now the believer is required to continue to answer the Graces God gives, which by answering and doing GOOD WORKS, the individual grows in merit (favor of the Lord). Baptism, in making an individual a son of God, is what enables him/her to grow in favor of the Lord. If the individual continuously refuses to answer the Grace and do GOOD WORKS that God requires of them, they will be cut off from the kingdom. Also, if a person disobeys the will of God (his commandments), then that person will also be cut-off from the kingdom.

So another error in Protestantism is that it usually sees this as a person who gets cut-off from the kingdom is a person who was never saved in the first place. That is wrong. Every person at baptism was truly saved due to their faith or the faith of the parents. To question it is to question the efficacy of the Sacrament. At baptism, each believer is taken in to God’s family and is given an indelible mark that he/she is now a child of God. If they sin or do not answer the Grace God gives them, they simply get cut-off from the family inheritance (Heaven). It does not mean that they never became children of God in the first place.

Anyway, when Paul speaks of this issue in Romans, he is referring to this initial stage of being saved by baptism. That does not require works to merit that gift. People at that time possibly misunderstood this just as Protestants do. That is why James in his epistle, clarified that Works are needed because salvation is not complete at baptism itself. It continues throughout the person’s life in that God gives them Grace which they must answer to. Also, they must keep the commandments of God. So James and Paul are not contradicting each other. They are speaking of two different stages of the salvation. Paul speaks from the perspective of before baptism and attaining the gift of Grace in the sacrament and James speaks of requirements for the subsequent life of the believer.
 
brb3 said:
Probably …

Here’s what scripture teaches, in Acts 18-19. Apollos was a strong defender of the faith, and mightily able to promote Christianity. But, when he encountered Paul … Paul was convinced something wasn’t ideal for Apollos. And he asked him if he had yet received the HS ? Apollos responded he had no idea about the HS, had not even heard of it. Paul learned Apollos had only been baptized by John the Baptizer, not by Jesus’s disciples. So, when Apollos was baptized in the name of Jesus, and when Paul CONFIRMED Apollos with laying on of hands, to anoint with HS … Apollos first received the INDWELLING of H.S.

So, the Catholic Sacraments of Water Baptism, Confession & Confirmation are essential to being ‘marked’ internally with the indwelling H.S. Paul realized it is not enuf to know and talk of Christ in theoretical terms. We must receive the essential Sacraments … in order to receive the Indwelling of H.S. And, this scriptural account of Apollos confirms that it is essential to obtain our ‘Baptism of Fire’ Confirmation in the HS ]. When we receive the Fire of HS … our faith is no longer theory, but certitude ! When the HS marks us … we are able to move from theory to fact [certainty]. We receive the Paraclete … and it is a gamechanger event. All things are new for us.

This is why CONFIRMATION is the final Sacrament in Christian initiation. And, thereafter, we are able to receive the Eucharist. Until I was Confirmed … I had no clue what the HS was. I was just as Apollos, a believer, but an incomplete one. The Sacraments are essential to Salvation. Each Sacrament confers a special grace to us. If only one was complete in itself … we wouldn’t have the Sacred ‘initial’ 3 … [Water Baptism, Confession, and Confirmation].
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You already receive the Holy Spirit at baptism. You only receive additional Graces like the gifts of the Holy Spirit at confirmation and the sacrament strengthens your relationship with the Holy Spirit.

The Eucharist also strengthens your relationship with the Holy Spirit. You do not need to receive confirmation before receiving the Eucharist.

Sacrament of Marriage, Sacrament of Holy Orders, Sacrament of Reconciliation, and Anointing of the Sick are all Sacraments too. So I am not sure what you mean by “Confirmation” is the final sacrament in the life of a Christian. Usually the final Sacrament tends to be Anointing of the Sick.
 
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,*23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,*24and arejustified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.-Rom 3

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. - Rom 5:1

And dozens more!

Titus 3:5-7…
He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
 
Redfred said:
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,*23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,*24and arejustified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.-Rom 3

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wehave peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. - Rom 5:1

And dozens more!

Titus 3:5-7…
He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
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To explain the “many more” passages you might quote, those are speaking of the initial baptism. At that point, you are saved without any requirement for works and only on the faith you had to approach the sacrament.

However, Scripture is clear that this does not mean you have nothing left to do or that you cannot lose salvation. You have to do good works i.e. answer the Grace of God and keep God’s commandments. Otherwise you will be cut-off form heaven.

So first problem is that Protestants have missed the boat that Paul is speaking of this initial gift of salvation and how a person is made a child of God. But the child has to do the will of the father and meet the father’s expectations, just like in any natural family. If not, they are cut-off from the family. Just because you are a child of your family does not mean that your parents will give you a gift they saved for you. You might have been a pretty bad child in which event they will cut you off from the family.

That being said, the bigger problem is that you are missing the important question you should be asking. “Who has the authority to teach Christianity? (which includes interpreting Scripture as well as Tradition)”. This question should be answered using REASON, not faith. Why? Because the answer to that question tells you WHO and WHAT you should be putting your faith IN.
 
Eufrosnia said:
That being said, the bigger problem is that you are missing the important question you should be asking. “Who has the authority to teach Christianity? (which includes interpreting Scripture as well as Tradition)”. This question should be answered using REASON, not faith. Why? Because the answer to that question tells you WHO and WHAT you should be putting your faith IN.
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Oh … I see. U do value REASON afterall. But, only for the Church leadership ? Not really for yourself or the laity !!

You would have us put ‘blind’ faith in THEIR ‘reason’ … even when they are clearly teaching error, at various times in past history. On indulgences, on need to kill errant Protestants, on returning back to OT thinking of “an eye for an eye” type punishment. :eek:
 
brb3 said:
Oh … I see. U do value REASON afterall. But, only for the Church leadership ? Not really for yourself or the laity !!

You would have us put ‘blind’ faith in THEIR ‘reason’ … even when they are clearly teaching error, at various times in past history. On indulgences, on need to kill errant Protestants, on returning back to OT thinking of “an eye for an eye” type punishment. :eek:
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Well hold on for a second. The issue you still seem to be missing is that you cannot use reason to check if a truth regarding something that is transcendent is true or false. So if the Church were to say “Heretics can be punished by death”, we don’t really know if that is true or false. Or, if the Church says “Indulgences can be applied to those in purgatory”, we don’t know if such a thing is true. Even more problematically, if the Church says Scripture is the WORD of God, we can’t know through reason that it is true either.

This same applies for ourselves. If we were to read the Bible and say “it says X and that means Y”, we do not really know if that is true. We don’t even know through reason that the Bible is true to begin with.

This is why your accusation that “Church’s teachings did not make logical sense throughout history” is not a valid objection. Why? Because you cannot know clearly through reason alone what heaven is like, that Christ is God, or what Christ wants from you etc.

What all of this means is that your analysis should always be on the issue of “Who has authority?”. That is an issue you can settle using natural reason. That is why we speak of the issue of authority. Once that is settled, we give full assent, EVEN IF it does not make sense immediately to us.
 
Faith = belief. Belief means to live in accordance. If we do not live according to our faith with actions, faith means little.
 
Eufrosnia said:
To explain the “many more” passages you might quote, those are speaking of the initial baptism. At that point, you are saved without any requirement for works and only on the faith you had to approach the sacrament.

However, Scripture is clear that this does mean you such the nothing left to do or that you you uu understand this, you are hopelessly lost.cannot lose salvation. You have to do good works i.e. answer the Grace of God and keep God’s commandments. Otherwise you will be cut-off form heaven.

So first problem is that Protestants have missed the boat that Paul is speaking of this initial gift of salvation and how a person is made a child of God. But the child has to do the will of the father and meet the father’s expectations, just like in any natural family. If not, they are cut-off from the family. Just because you are a child of your family does not mean that your parents will give you a gift they saved for you. You might have been a pretty bad child in which event they will cut you off from the family.

That being said, the bigger problem is that you are missing the important question you should be asking. “Who has the authority to teach Christianity? (which includes interpreting Scripture as well as Tradition)”. This question should be answered using REASON, not faith. Why? Because the answer to that question tells you WHO and WHAT you should be putting your faith IN.
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You have yet to see what happened on the cross. You have yet to understand what Paul meant when he said “There is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. " Jesus said of those sheep that” they shall NEVER (in the Greek that means NEVER :)) perish, nor shall anyone pluck them out of my hand"-John 10 Until you understand this, you are adrift.
 
But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

Persevere at what?
 
brb3 said:
Perhaps the Thief on Cross ? A type of ‘deathbed confession’ ! His story of salvation,… [publically praying a ‘sinner’s prayer’] … has perhaps brought more people to repentance / confession, than all others.

Is his salvation unique in all scripture ? If he had lived longer, would he of needed to do more, to obtain final salvation ?
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He did what he needed to do; he died on the cross with Jesus, and died to himself in the process.

That’s what we all have to do, each in our own way. He didn’t have it any easier than anyone else.
 
Redfred said:
You have yet to see what happened on the cross. You have yet to understand what Paul meant when he said “There is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. " Jesus said of those sheep that” they shall NEVER (in the Greek that means NEVER :)) perish, nor shall anyone pluck them out of my hand"-John 10 Until you understand this, you are adrift.
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Romans 8:1 though it is the first verse in a new chapter, it actually starts with a Therefore. It therefore needs to be considered as a conclusion to reasoning of Romans 7:25.
 
Redfred said:
You have yet to see what happened on the cross. You have yet to understand what Paul meant when he said “There is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. " Jesus said of those sheep that” they shall NEVER (in the Greek that means NEVER :)) perish, nor shall anyone pluck them out of my hand"-John 10 Until you understand this, you are adrift.
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Well of course, if my assent to the Church as an authority was not true, indeed I would be adrift on a lot of things. Similarly, if you have no reason to think yourself as authoritative in interpreting Scripture or whoever else you listened to as being authoritative, you too would be adrift.

So it is important that we settle the issue of authority on who has the say on the final interpretation. As far as reason goes, I see the Catholic Church as the sole entity with the authority. If you want to suggest otherwise, you must
  1. show why my position is unreasonable
  2. why your authority is more reasonable
Unless you show either of the above, we unfortunately do not have anything to turn to as the Word of God. Why? Because to say something is the word of God requires the ability to directly see the supernatural. Otherwise we cannot say a book contains the Word of God. Same with Tradition. So lets not get ahead of ourselves and start quoting St. Paul or Gospels. We must settle the matter with the authority before we assent. Who do you consider as the authority and why?
 
Redfred said:
Jesus said of those sheep that" they shall NEVER (in the Greek that means NEVER :)) perish, nor shall anyone pluck them out of my hand"-John 10
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Provided we stay in His Hand. We can always choose to leave his hand, and walk back into secular world. Scripture is clear on this … Prodigal Son story confirms it.

Life also demonstrates many have walked away after having their house cleaned of all demons, ----- only to invite in 7 more evil spirits worse than at their first, … and their last state is worse than their first !!!
 
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