Faith ALONE, w/o works is DEAD

[brb3]

" If faith is not expressed in works, it is DEAD and cannot bear fruit unto eternal life".

Pope JP2, Introduction to Catechism of Catholic Church, 1992…APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION FIDEI DEPOSITUM

 

[TimothyH]

Faith comes first.

How many have it? How many actually have faith in God, actually trust God?

Works ALONE, without faith is also dead. I know many non-Catholic who express their faith in works quite well, better than many Catholics who can barely bring themselves to say, “Bless us O Lord, in these thy gifts…” in a public setting.

-Tim-

 

[nicolakirwan]

This is straight from the James. As far as I can tell, the Catholic Church does not actually acknowledge a clear distinction between faith and works. But sola fide split the two apart as if faith could somehow be alive apart from the works that flow from it. That seems more like intellectual assent rather than faith.

Faith coupled with works is obedience, is it not?

 

[nicolakirwan]

This is straight from the James. As far as I can tell, the Catholic Church does not actually acknowledge a clear distinction between faith and works. But sola fide split the two apart as if faith could somehow be alive apart from the works that flow from it. That seems more like intellectual assent rather than faith.

Faith coupled with works is obedience, is it not?

Pope Benedict made a statement that led me to believe the above. Can’t access it at the moment.

 

[mab23]

faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead

lets have true faith and allow God to work through us

Philippians 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

 

[po18guy]

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love, faith comes first and is our entry into the divine life via those virtues. Paul says, in Romans 3:28 that we are “justified by faith”, but later on in the same letter, he teaches that we are “saved by hope” Romans 8:24. But, even hope is not final, as it will pass away when that which is hoped for arrives. In 1 Corinthians 13:13 he teaches that love is greater than either faith or hope - for in heaven there will be only love - faith and hope having passed away as the imperfect becomes the perfect (1 Corinthians 13:10,12).

 

[mommy_k]

It is the Faith behind the wroks that matter
The works have to be pure, not for attention of self, or to move up socially.
Mother Theresa got it right.I believe a faithful person without works will enter heaven befor a person who did works for their own agenda.

 

[brb3]

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love, faith comes first and is our entry into the divine life via those virtues. Paul says, in Romans 3:28 that we are “justified by faith”, but later on in the same letter, he teaches that we are “saved by hope” Romans 8:24. But, even hope is not final, as it will pass away when that which is hoped for arrives. In 1 Corinthians 13:13 he teaches that love is greater than either faith or hope - for in heaven there will be only love - faith and hope having passed away as the imperfect becomes the perfect (1 Corinthians 13:10,12).

Love is always the supreme virtue, because it comes from above. God’s love has a quality that supercedes human love. It is ‘graceful’ and abiding, but much more too. Having all those characteristics that Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 13. This is how we can recognize the presence of HS …and know when we are IN CHRISTOS, or not. This is how the early Church in Paul’s day could recognize the redeemed sheep from those who had not received rebirth via HS. The HS was ‘graced’, ‘gifted’ to the new sheep …they experiened, then emanated the Agape Love of indwellling HS. Agape Love ALWAYS leads to GOOD WORKS … otherwise, the faith of catecumen was not sufficient.

Thats how Paul could teach those Christians who had strayed and grieved HS to REMEMBER their FIRST LOVE, REPENT-CONFESS, and to Do those GOOD WORKS of HS again.

 

[po18guy]

Love is always the supreme virtue, because it comes from above. God’s love has a quality that supercedes human love. It is ‘graceful’ and abiding, but much more too. Having all those characteristics that Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 13. This is how we can recognize the presence of HS …and know when we are IN CHRISTOS, or not. This is how the early Church in Paul’s day could recognize the redeemed sheep from those who had not received rebirth via HS. The HS was ‘graced’, ‘gifted’ to the new sheep …they experiened, then emanated the Agape Love of indwellling HS. Agape Love ALWAYS leads to GOOD WORKS … otherwise, the faith of catecumen was not sufficient.

Thats how Paul could teach those Christians who had strayed and grieved HS to REMEMBER their FIRST LOVE, REPENT-CONFESS, and to Do those GOOD WORKS of HS again.

I think of those who take only the first step toward God - that of having faith. Of course, faith is vitally important and is itself a grace from God, but it is only a good beginning. Well, I want to go where there is no faith, no hope and no bible. Where is that? Must be some horrible kind of place, huh?

No! It’s heaven!

 

[sw85]

This is straight from the James. As far as I can tell, the Catholic Church does not actually acknowledge a clear distinction between faith and works. But sola fide split the two apart as if faith could somehow be alive apart from the works that flow from it. That seems more like intellectual assent rather than faith.

Faith coupled with works is obedience, is it not?

More specifically, the Protestant error is a product of nominalism and thus an attempt to strip things down to some kind of bare core and treat the rest as mere optional addenda, whereas Catholics, being good Aristotelians, tend to see works as the logical development and fulfillment of faith. (And you’re right that the distinction isn’t terribly meaningful, since even Protestants talk about faith as a thing you do).

A friend of mine likened it once to a human body. I’m a man, which means that, by nature, I have legs. If I lose my legs, I’m still a man, so in a sense my legs aren’t essential to my manhood. But it doesn’t follow that legs are therefore somehow distinct from my manliness so that I may as well do without them. If I lose my legs, I’m a man, but I’m also a reduced or deficient man in that respect. Plus, if you see a pretty girl across the room, do you say “Who’s that pretty girl over there?” or do you say, “Who’s that pretty girl, standing atop that pair of unsevered legs?”

 

[TimothyH]

Of the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love, faith comes first and is our entry into the divine life via those virtues. Paul says, in Romans 3:28 that we are “justified by faith”, but later on in the same letter, he teaches that we are “saved by hope” Romans 8:24. But, even hope is not final, as it will pass away when that which is hoped for arrives. In 1 Corinthians 13:13 he teaches that love is greater than either faith or hope - for in heaven there will be only love - faith and hope having passed away as the imperfect becomes the perfect (1 Corinthians 13:10,12).

Sublime.

The thread can be closed now.

-Tim-

 

[Bookcat]

" If faith is not expressed in works, it is DEAD and cannot bear fruit unto eternal life".

Pope JP2, Introduction to Catechism of Catholic Church, 1992…APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION FIDEI DEPOSITUM

Like statements of Scripture we must take care to not take such in a way that excludes other truths etc.

For example can it happen that one has been justified and never get to any “good works” and go right to heaven (passing the portal to eternal life)? --Yes. Good example is an infant who has been baptized --but does not yet have the ability to put love into action freely.

Or a convert who has just received Baptism…and falls over dead from a heart attack…

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)

and older one

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[mackbrislawn]

" If faith is not expressed in works, it is DEAD and cannot bear fruit unto eternal life".

Pope JP2, Introduction to Catechism of Catholic Church, 1992…APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION FIDEI DEPOSITUM

It’s like the woman who was bleeding. She thought to herself, “If only I can touch the hem of his garment, I’ll be healed.” So she elbowed her way through the crowd, touched the hem of his garment, power flowed from Jesus, and she was healed. Jesus said to her, “Your faith has saved you.”

What was it that saved her? She herself thought it was the work of touching his garment, Jesus said it was her faith, and scripture says it was the power of Jesus.

Of course it was the power of Jesus, but it started with her faith, without which she would not have done the work necessary to tap into the power of Jesus.

 

[JonNC]

It’s like the woman who was bleeding. She thought to herself, “If only I can touch the hem of his garment, I’ll be healed.” So she elbowed her way through the crowd, touched the hem of his garment, power flowed from Jesus, and she was healed. Jesus said to her, “Your faith has saved you.”

What was it that saved her? She herself thought it was the work of touching his garment, Jesus said it was her faith, and scripture says it was the power of Jesus.

Of course it was the power of Jesus, but it started with her faith, without which she would not have done the work necessary to tap into the power of Jesus.

I can’t argue with this.

Jon

 

[williamgoodnigh]

what Catholics do not realize is that the word ALONE as in faith alone is not in the bible it was put there by LUTHER who had to remove James epistle to prove his point. (shows he even knew he was lying) the bible says man is saved by faith. inserting the word alone was a very clever ruse by Luther to put a sword into the church. James says man is saved through faith and works. But faith always comes first. his works are a sign of is faith. Luther was correct man can be saved by faith Alone in some respects( a repentant sinner on their death bed) but should the man regain his health and die in sin he will despite his faith go to hell. so Faith alone did not save him in the second sense. All acts of faith are works of god. jesus said he did the work of his father , So its really semantics. we do believe a man can be saved by works but only because his works are a sign of his faith.
Man is saved by faith(biblicaly correct) not by faith Alone(biblicaly incorrect) which is a man made dogma of Luther.
thus what the protestants say of Catholics they are even more guilty of it themselves following a man made doctrine which is not only unbiblical but really easy to disprove once one knows the history behind it.

 

[steve_b]

Faith comes first.

How many have it? How many actually have faith in God, actually trust God?

Works ALONE, without faith is also dead. I know many non-Catholic who express their faith in works quite well, better than many Catholics who can barely bring themselves to say, “Bless us O Lord, in these thy gifts…” in a public setting.

-Tim-

Actually Grace comes 1st

 

[steve_b]

what Catholics do not realize is that the word ALONE as in faith alone is not in the bible it was put there by LUTHER who had to remove James epistle to prove his point. (shows he even knew he was lying) the bible says man is saved by faith. inserting the word alone was a very clever ruse by Luther to put a sword into the church. James says man is saved through faith and works. But faith always comes first. his works are a sign of is faith. Luther was correct man can be saved by faith Alone in some respects( a repentant sinner on their death bed) but should the man regain his health and die in sin he will despite his faith go to hell. so Faith alone did not save him in the second sense. All acts of faith are works of god. jesus said he did the work of his father , So its really semantics. we do believe a man can be saved by works but only because his works are a sign of his faith.
Man is saved by faith(biblicaly correct) not by faith Alone(biblicaly incorrect) which is a man made dogma of Luther.
thus what the protestants say of Catholics they are even more guilty of it themselves following a man made doctrine which is not only unbiblical but really easy to disprove once one knows the history behind it.

Actually Luther admits adding “alone” and admits “alone” wasn’t there till he put it there. He put alone there because as he said, “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an *** are the same thing.”.

He was a rude man and quite full of himself. Here’s his own words
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt

 

[JonNC]

Actually Luther admits adding “alone” and admits “alone” wasn’t there till he put it there. He put alone there because as he said, “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an *** are the same thing.”.

He was a rude man and quite full of himself. Here’s his own words
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt

Actually, here is what he says as to why he translated Romans 3:28 the way he did.

I also know that in Rom. 3, the word “solum” is not present in
either Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me
that - it is fact! The letters s-o-l-a are not there. And these
knotheads stare at them like cows at a new gate, while at the same
time they do not recognize that it conveys the sense of the text -
if the translation is to be clear and accurate, it belongs there.
**I wanted to speak German since it was German I had spoken in
translation - not Latin or Greek. But it is the nature of our
language that in speaking about two things, one which is affirmed,
the other denied, we use the word “solum” only along with the word
“not” (nicht) or “no” (kein). For example, we say “the farmer
brings only (allein) grain and no money”; or “No, I really have no
money, but only (allein) grain”; I have only eaten and not yet
drunk"; “Did you write it only and not read it over?” There are a
vast number of such everyday cases.

   In all these phrases, this is a German usage, even though it is
   not the Latin or Greek usage. ** It is the nature of the German
   tongue to add "allein" in order that "nicht" or "kein" may be
   clearer and more complete.  To be sure, I can also say "The farmer
   brings grain and no (kein) money, but the words "kein money" do
   not sound as full and clear as if I were to say, "the farmer
   brings allein grain and kein money."  Here the word "allein" helps
   the word "kein" so much that it becomes a clear and complete
   German expression.

   We do not have to ask about the literal Latin or how we are to
   speak German - as these asses do.  Rather we must ask the mother
   in the home, the children on the street, the common person in the
   market about this.  We must be guided by their tongue, the manner
   of their speech, and do our translating accordingly.  Then they
   will understand it and recognize that we are speaking German to
   them.

It is an issue of translation from Greek or Latin to German. The fact is that in no English translation that I am aware of, is “alone” in Romans 3:28. Why? Because it is not needed in the English. English isn’t German.

The reason for the smart-alecky, hyperbolic phrase that you sort of quoted he states also:

I would gladly see a papist come forward and translate into German
an epistle of St. Paul’s or one of the prophets and, in doing so,
not make use of Luther’s German or translation. Then one might
see a fine, beautiful and noteworthy translation into German.

   We have seen that bungler from Dresden play master to my New
   Testament.  (I will not mention his name in my books as he has his
   judge and is already well- known).  He does admit that my German
   is good and sweet and that he could not improve it.  Yet, anxious
   to dishonor it, **he took my New Testament word for word as it was
   written, and removed my prefaces and glosses, replacing them with
   his own. Then he published my New Testament under his name!**  Dear
   Children, how it pained me when his prince in a detestable preface
   condemned my work and forbid all from reading Luther's New
   Testament, while at the same time commending the Bungler's New
   Testament to be read - even though it was the very same one Luther
   had written!

There is the reason for his harshness. You can look back 500 years and condemn him, but condemn him for what he actually did, and put his words in context.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=williamgoodnigh;10326580]what Catholics do not realize is that the word ALONE as in faith alone is not in the bible it was put there by LUTHER who had to remove James epistle to prove his point.

Since it is your third post, I suspect you may not know that Catholics know full-well that “sola” in not in Romans 3:28 in the Latin. And “alone” is not in the English.
But that aside, some facts need to be straight. Luther did not remove James from the scripture. He translated it, and 73 other books, and included them in his German translation.
Now, if you have a source to back up your claim that he did, please cite it. I have in my possession a copy of Die Bibel, and it has The Epsitle of St. James in it.

(shows he even knew he was lying) the bible says man is saved by faith. inserting the word alone was a very clever ruse by Luther to put a sword into the church.

Again, a citation is required when you charge someone of lying. Without one, one is reminded of the 8th Commandment.

James says man is saved through faith and works. But faith always comes first. his works are a sign of is faith. Luther was correct man can be saved by faith Alone in some respects( a repentant sinner on their death bed) but should the man regain his health and die in sin he will despite his faith go to hell. so Faith alone did not save him in the second sense. All acts of faith are works of god. jesus said he did the work of his father , So its really semantics. we do believe a man can be saved by works but only because his works are a sign of his faith.

And Paul says on numerous occassions that we are justified by faith apart from works, so who is right. The fact is, they both are. Our justification is the work of the Triune God, by His grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Those justified are guided by the Spirit to do the good works placed before us. Refusal to do good works is sin, and repeated and unrepented sin leads to loss of saving faith. Saving faith is a faith that works through love.

Man is saved by faith(biblicaly correct) not by faith Alone(biblicaly incorrect) which is a man made dogma of Luther.

Perhaps you can explain what Luther meant by sola fide.

thus what the protestants say of Catholics they are even more guilty of it themselves following a man made doctrine which is not only unbiblical but really easy to disprove once one knows the history behind it.

What have we said that you are referring to?

Jon