Faith Alone

[sandusky]

Those verses you gave dont say there are only two groups, the Bible (taken as a whole) says there are those who are never saved, those who are saved but fail to persevere, and those that are saved and persevere.

A few other passages, besides the ones I have already given, that come to mind are:
I Cor 10 1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert. 6Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.” 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!
The people being set free from Egypt is equivalent to a Christian being set free from the bondage of sin in their former life. Their sojourn in the desert represents our life of struggle against sin. Yet many of the Israelites did not remain faithful at various points along the way and fell to their death. Paul says this is a warning to us. If it is impossible to fall then this “warning” is not a warning.
Luke 8 11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
This explicitly says there are more than two groups, and that there are groups that believe for a time but fall away and dont persevere.
II Peter 1
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
Here in verse 9 is a person cleansed from their sins but is not persevering in good works.

Again, the Catholic position is taking Scripture as a whole. Those passages I listed above present severe problems to your theology, especially Lk 8:13 and 2 Pt 1:9.

Im not assuming my position is correct and this can be proven by the fact you have no explanation for passages like “love grows cold”. The term “persevere” means nothing in your theology because the concept of failing doesnt exist, thus the concept of persevering doesnt exist.
If someone is on the edge of a cliff the possibility of falling exists, thus they must persevere in keeping their balance so they dont fall off the cliff. In your theology it would be as if you are standing on flat ground and saying you will never fall, well of course because the concept of falling doesnt exist, you are not persevering.

You’re reading your position into the verses that you offer.

I’ve offered four verses to show that there are those predestined to glory, and those who are not—two verses for each group, and there are others as well.

Here again is the question you have not answered with respect to your “third group”:**Where in Sacred Writ is a statement that describes the group that Catholics claim God predestined to grace only—He foreknew them, predestined them to grace, called and justified them, and then lets many of them lose their justification and be condemned to hell?

Where is that stated?**

 

[steppenwolf1218]

God never changes His mind" (Beck).

Oh God has changed His mind before. Or have you forgotten Adam? Or how about when God offered Moses that he should be the one who great nations shall spring forth from instead of Abraham?

 

[steppenwolf1218]

You’re reading your position into the verses that you offer.

I’ve offered four verses to show that there are those predestined to glory, and those who are not—two verses for each group, and there are others as well.

Here again is the question you have not answered with respect to your “third group”:Where in Sacred Writ is a statement that describes the group that Catholics claim God predestined to grace only—He foreknew them, predestined them to grace, called and justified them, and then lets many of them lose their justification and be condemned to hell?

Where is that stated?

Let’s see you answer some of the questions put forth to you first.

 

[sandusky]

If salvation was truly a two party, cooperative effort then the analogy of the scissors would be correct (one blade divine, the other human). However, salvation, justification, righteousness and eternal life are all revealed to be gifted by God to the sinner upon belief in the Son (Rom. 3:24; 5:17; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9). And it is revealed that the gifts of God are “irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29, NASB, RSV, NIV); “without repentance” (KJV); “never taken back” (Williams); “God never changes His mind” (Beck).Rom 3:24 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"The English word “gift” being the Greek word “dorean,” meaning “without cause.” IOW, because of the redemptive work of Christ on the cross God is “free” to forever justify the one who turns from unbelief to belief in His Son.Rom 4:22 - 5:2 "Therefore it was also credited to Him (Abraham) as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith (not “by baptism”), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith (not “by baptism”) into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."True, the scissors analogy certainly conforms to RC soteriology, but not that of Divine revelation.Agreed!

:yup:

[SIGN]
**Two choices:

The religion of Divine accomplishment: God has done it all.

or,

The religion of Human Achievement: God has done some, and I must do some.

[/SIGN]**

 

[steppenwolf1218]

“God never changes His mind” (Beck)

OH and I forgot about Nineveh too. Seems like Beck was a little off the mark to say the least.

 

[sodak]

Hold the presses! This just in from James, chapter 2!

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

Oh no! We have a contradiction in the Bible!!! James and Paul disagree!!! What are we to do???

Hint - read the Catechism. It gives the only reasonable explanation, which makes sense, since it’s guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

God never changes His mind" (Beck).

Oh God has changed His mind before. Or have you forgotten Adam? Or how about when God offered Moses that he should be the one who great nations shall spring forth from instead of Abraham?

How can something outside of time. (Time is a mesurment of change) Change?

 

[steppenwolf1218]

I’ve shown you what you are required to believe; whether or not you embrace what you’re required to believe is your choice.

I’ve shown you what you are required to believe; whether or not you embrace what you’re required to believe is your choice.

Like I said before, you haven’t learned what it is to be a christian yet, how can you possibly teach me about Catholicism?

 

[steppenwolf1218]

How can something outside of time. (Time is a mesurment of change) Change?

I was responding to a post by moondweller. God can change His will based on human response. If He did not then there would be no forgiveness for us. God’s change is a response to human free will. The examples I gave are directly from the Bible.

 

[D_M]

A few years ago I heard a priest named Fr. Doug Kuzell who made a sermon on this topic that I will attempt to reiterate here:

He had recently gone on a transatlantic flight and of course at the beginning of the flight there was a safety video that told the passengers that if they should come down and crash over water that there were lifevests that could be reached under the seat. And there was an illustration in the video telling people to put on the life vests in order to be made safe. But what Fr Doug remarked was that the video did not actually tell people to get out of the plane; which is obviously going to be inferred by anyone in that situation. The video simply said put on this life-vest and you will be saved.

Sola fide is a similar concept. Protestants take verses in scripture which tell them that if they faith they will be saved and ignore the obvious remainder of the instruction that they need to actually imitate the life of Jesus, be freed from sin and do good works. That is to say, despite the literal interpretation of the video, you need to actually get out of the plane as well.

Grace only works if we cooperate with it. God offers us all the grace we could ever need, but we need to actually work with and do what is required of us in order for it to succeed and make us holy.

A christian who believes in Jesus and does nothing else is comparable to a passenger who put on the life-vest they needed to be saved and sat in their seat as the plane was sinking.

I don’t know if anyone has quoted this yet, but it is highly relavant here:

James 2:14-24 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and of you says to them, “God in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was recknoed to him as righetousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and **not by faith alone. **

Luther’s answer to this was that he questioned and denied James to be inspired scripture. For if it were, and it is, then faith alone could not be correct.

 

[steppenwolf1218]

A few years ago I heard a priest named Fr. Doug Kuzell who made a sermon on this topic that I will attempt to reiterate here:

He had recently gone on a transatlantic flight and of course at the beginning of the flight there was a safety video that told the passengers that if they should come down and crash over water that there were lifevests that could be reached under the seat. And there was an illustration in the video telling people to put on the life vests in order to be made safe. But what Fr Doug remarked was that the video did not actually tell people to get out of the plane; which is obviously going to be inferred by anyone in that situation. The video simply said put on this life-vest and you will be saved.

Sola fide is a similar concept. Protestants take verses in scripture which tell them that if they faith they will be saved and ignore the obvious remainder of the instruction that they need to actually imitate the life of Jesus, be freed from sin and do good works. That is to say, despite the literal interpretation of the video, you need to actually get out of the plane as well.

Grace only works if we cooperate with it. God offers us all the grace we could ever need, but we need to actually work with and do what is required of us in order for it to succeed and make us holy.

A christian who believes in Jesus and does nothing else is comparable to a passenger who put on the life-vest they needed to be saved and sat in their seat as the plane was sinking.

I don’t know if anyone has quoted this yet, but it is highly relavant here:

James 2:14-24 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and of you says to them, “God in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was recknoed to him as righetousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and **not by faith alone. **

Luther’s answer to this was that he questioned and denied James to be inspired scripture. For if it were, and it is, then faith alone could not be correct.

Very good example and well put. But unfortunately many of our Protestant brethren just won’t get it and that’s a shame.

 

[Pax]

:yup:

[SIGN]
**Two choices:

The religion of Divine accomplishment: God has done it all.

or,

The religion of Human Achievement: God has done some, and I must do some.

[/SIGN]**

I and others have shredded this kind of nonsense on previous threads that you have participated in. Let’s go through it again, and hopefully you won’t neglect to appreciate the scriptures that are presented to you, and that you will stop mischaracterizing Catholic teaching when it comes to faith and works.

I’ll start with a general overview approach and then proceed from there.

Please note that the Son is eternal and that our Triune God sees everything that is past, present, and future all at one time. There is nothing that God does not know. Before the word became flesh in Jesus, man could do nothing to secure salvation after the fall. No works of man could save man. Likewise, man in his fallen nature cannot do anything to save himself after Jesus redemptive work either.

Paul’s argument with the Judaizers and his statements to the Gentiles make this very point. Paul contends that the entirety of the Jewish religion was not the means to salvation. It is for this reason that Paul points out that those under the old law were saved by the fact that “…all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”[1 Cor 10:4] In other words, they were saved by Christ in an anticipatory fashion.

The Gentiles were given the message that they too could not save themselves. There is nothing that anyone can do outside of faith that is pleasing to God. It is for this reason that Paul says in Romans 14:23 that “whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.” We also know from Paul, that “the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”[Rom 6:23]

So we can make some quick conclusions. The works of man’s fallen nature are not salvific. The Jews and Gentiles are in the same position when it comes to the works of their fallen nature. Paul makes this clear to both groups. Likewise, Paul makes it clear to both groups that salvation comes from God by way of grace.

So here’s the deal. There is nothing that man can do to save himself because finite man cannot give our infinite God a sacrifice of “infinite” value. Salvation is a gift by way of the sacrifice of Jesus the God man. His sacrifice is of infinite value and provides atonement and redemption. This is scripture and this is Catholic teaching. So far I think you should be able to agree.

From here it is where we probably part company. The scriptural truth and the Catholic exposition of the truth is one of completeness. It is the whole truth without truncation. This is the most important point to made and upon which everything must be grounded. It is the complete picture that must be adhered to.

Paul argues that the whole of the Jewish religion is not salvific, and that the whole of the Gentile beliefs are not salvific. In contrast, Paul argues that the gospel is salvific. It is the entirety of the Good News of Jesus that is salvific. This is the crux of Christian truth. We know salvation is a gift because it is the work of Christ that is salvific. None of the natural works of fallen man are of any consequence.

What non-Catholics seem to forget that it is the entirety of the Christian religion that is the gospel. It is the entirety of “the gospel” that gives us the message of how we are saved. We cannot truncate the truths contained in the gospel. We cannot short change, ignore, or in anyway diminish any of the words of Jesus and the gospel.

The next installment will begin dealing with your contentions concerning faith and works.

 

[guanophore]

the Catholic scenario, which, IMO, leads men to trust more in themselves, and their free will for eternal life than they ought.

I think what you are actually referring to here is your understanding of Catholicism, which you have demonstrated to be erroneous.

The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, and that the grace that saves us produces in us the fruit that befits salvation. Since human beings do not posess in themselves ( apart from God) grace, faith or works sufficient to save themselves, then trusting in oneself is not only not Catholic, but not effectual unto salvation.

The Fall was not a car that ran out of gas, but a car wreck of such magnitude that the only solution was for God to assume humanity and take upon Himself the punishment of those those He saves—the truth of the matter is much more serious than your analogy of running of gas belies, and much more serious than your church teaches—think about it.

It is serious, sandusky. You may not be familiar with desert regions, but I can assure you that a car that runs out of gas in the desert is most certainly a death sentence. The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, sandusky. God created humans in his own image, and his creation was not “unmade” at the fall, but separated from His intention for it. God’s image includes free will, and God does not unmake this gift.

Well, the NT being a Catholic book, I am certain that anything of values that Calvinism has found within it’s pages comes from the Holy Catholic Church.

Calvin’s work of the preaching of his Lord’s Gospel for the salvation of souls is eternal, and is not fading away.

Certainly it has not faded soon enough, but we continue to pray that all works that do not accurately reflect the Teaching of Jesus through the Apostles will be consumed with the fire of purification.

[/QUOTE]

 

[guanophore]

found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own, derived from law (any principle of law, religious or otherwise), but that which is through faith in Christ (alone), the righteousness which comes from God (i.e., reckoned) on the basis of FAITH. Not through water baptism or any so-called “righteous works” done through me,

I think you have been wrongly taught about the nature of baptism. It might be considered a sacred work, to the extent that the person voluntarily presents himself for it, but it is not done “through” the person being baptized. A person is alway s baptized by another, and the baptizer is always Jesus, and the HS is imparted to the believer, and seals the believer in God’s grace. None of this can be done of or through man.

but like Abraham our father, having believed God’s word gifted righteousness (justification) by His grace through (sacramentalism? No!, works? No!, religious or church affiliation? No! but…) "the redemption which is in Christ Jesus"

You have apparently also been misinformed about the sacramental life. Sacraments are not a work of “man” but of Jesus Himself. They are effected by Jesus, and are an avenue by which we experience His grace through faith. you are right, tho, they are all about redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

I agree with you that this is the biggest theological problem with divine salvation and the RCC, as well as any person or religious institution which fail to fully embrace the Apostolic message of salvation by divine grace through faith in Christ and His redemptive work on the cross alone.

Clearly you have quite a bit to learn about your family history as well. The Catholic Teaching of salvation did not originate in Rome.

According to divine revelation salvation requires nothing less than divine righteousness which is gifted by God upon belief in His Son. And the true believer rejoices in the fact that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29).

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

 

[guanophore]

If you think so highly of Calvin’s teaching concerning Mary then why do reject his soteriology? :ehh:

Because we are obedient to the Apostolic commandment not to receive a “different gospel”. Calvin affirmed the Apostolic Teaching on Mary. Whereever he departs from Apostolic Teaching, he departs from the One who sent them.

Calvin was a Catholic; Calvin was concerned with the important issues of who God is, who Christ is and what did He accomplish, who is man, and how is fallen man made right before God; Mary has nothing to do with those things.

Statements such as this simply boggle the mind. It is like the tongue saying to the womb “I have no need of you”.

 

[Icarus]

If salvation was truly a two party, cooperative effort then the analogy of the scissors would be correct (one blade divine, the other human). However, salvation, justification, righteousness and eternal life are all revealed to be gifted by God to the sinner upon belief in the Son (Rom. 3:24; 5:17; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9). And it is revealed that the gifts of God are “irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29, NASB, RSV, NIV); “without repentance” (KJV); “never taken back” (Williams); “God never changes His mind” (Beck).Rom 3:24 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"The English word “gift” being the Greek word “dorean,” meaning “without cause.” IOW, because of the redemptive work of Christ on the cross God is “free” to forever justify the one who turns from unbelief to belief in His Son.Rom 4:22 - 5:2 "Therefore it was also credited to Him (Abraham) as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith (not “by baptism”), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith (not “by baptism”) into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."True, the scissors analogy certainly conforms to RC soteriology, but not that of Divine revelation.Agreed!

Okay lets look at your side of it.
Remember that we Catholics believe that both blades are required; absence of one blade denies the other. What kind of faith does one have if after one is saved he says to him/her self “there, now i don’t have to strive to walk with God” doing good works. Thats basically what your saying.
Ya , your going to fall short, so what? You keep doing good works - Where in the Catechism does it say that we can be saved through good works alone? Nobody is saying that.
But it seems to me that your saying that after your saved through faith alone – no need to go over board on the goodworks………huh? hey, even the demons believe whole heartedly that Christ is lord? Are they saved then?
I don’t understand your reasoning!

So, how do you live (or try to live) your life **after **coming into salvation thorugh faith?

P.S

on a sub-topic…

I take it that you’re probably against the sacrament of reconciliation.
But if anything; beyond anything else, the act of the sacrament alone teaches us that we are fallible and often can be “wrong” and need to ask for forgiveness. Maybe that’s what’s wrong with the world (nobody else teaches this and illustrates it)… so we have a society where nobody thinks their wrong, no one needs to say I’m sorry… or to ask for forgiveness.

They don’t know how!!

At the very least our Church teaches this. Can you deny that?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

**Habakkuk 2:4 ****“Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith. **

**Galatians 3:11 ****Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” **

**Hebrews 10:38 ****But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. **

**Romans 3:28 **For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

So you admit that “faith alone” is not scriptural. Well your starting to grow. Good job!

 

[Sean_Boyle]

If salvation was truly a two party, cooperative effort then the analogy of the scissors would be correct (one blade divine, the other human). However, salvation, justification, righteousness and eternal life are all revealed to be gifted by God to the sinner upon belief in the Son (Rom. 3:24; 5:17; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9). And it is revealed that the gifts of God are “irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29, NASB, RSV, NIV); “without repentance” (KJV); “never taken back” (Williams); “God never changes His mind” (Beck).Rom 3:24 "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"The English word “gift” being the Greek word “dorean,” meaning “without cause.” IOW, because of the redemptive work of Christ on the cross God is “free” to forever justify the one who turns from unbelief to belief in His Son.Rom 4:22 - 5:2 "Therefore it was also credited to Him (Abraham) as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith (not “by baptism”), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith (not “by baptism”) into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."True, the scissors analogy certainly conforms to RC soteriology, but not that of Divine revelation.Agreed!

Salvation comes from God’s grace. That conforms to God and his Church, ie RC soteriology.

In Christ’s own words, Love is a greater christian virtue than faith. That is divine revelation.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

:yup:

[sign]
Two choices:

The religion of Divine accomplishment: God has done it all.

or,

The religion of Human Achievement: God has done some, and I must do some.

[/sign]

It’s not obvious, which are you for?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I’ve shown you what you are required to believe; whether or not you embrace what you’re required to believe is your choice.

I’ve shown you what you are required to believe; whether or not you embrace what you’re required to believe is your choice.

Let us Calvin’s theology to highlight your response.

If steppenwolf1218 is predestined to be saved, then he has no choice in the matter of what to believe. He doesn’t have to believe if he was predestined. If “coming to faith” is a personal choice which is required. Then “coming to faith” would be considered a work to secure ones own salvation, which isn’t allowed.

Nice agruement, no good outcome from the Calvinist position.

Is this one of those time were Calvin was just marching to the beat of his own drum or was this belief of God.

No one will ever know…