S
sodak
Guest
Bingo! You nailed it!
- Status
S
sandusky
Guest
Explain what you mean by that, sodak, “won’t accept the role of works?” :ehh:
A “red-herring.”
K
kaycee
Guest
Guess you have’nt read post #376
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Peter_Da_Rock
Guest
The book of James debunks the Protestant understanding. There is good reason his book comes after all of Paul’s writings. James clarifies what is cloudy concerning the issue.
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moondweller
Guest
According to Divine revelation it is God Himself who saves:2 Tim 1:8 “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with {me} in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,”
Titus 3:4-7 “But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.“Salvation doesn’t come “from grace,” but from God Himself (and that “from the Jews,” Jn. 4:22). Grace is the means by which God Himself saves the believer, made infinitely secure through the sacrificial work of the Son. Being “by grace” salvation is by definition unmerited, unrecompensed and totally undeserved - God glorifying and Christocentric. In fact, so certain is this perfectly, divinely wrought salvation that it is said of the redeemed (“made alive together with Christ”), that they are now positionally seated in the heavenly with Christ Jesus”…so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” Eph. 2:5-7To the contrary, Sean, unlike RC soteriology divinely wrought salvation provides a grace fueled assurance that reaches far into eternity, into the ages to come.
True, love is the greatest “Christian” virtue. But one does not become a Christian or enter into salvation by the virtue of his own love, but rather “through faith” (Eph. 2:8). If salvation was based on our love toward God (or even one another) it would never have occurred. John presents this divine perspective:1 John 4:10 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins.From ancient times men entered into a right relationship with God by believing the word of God. Vividly demonstrated in Abraham:Gen. 15:6 "Then he (Abram) believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness.Two thousand years later Paul taught that same ancient principle to the church at Rome:Rom 4:1-5 "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"To believe God is the ancient faith - predating even RC’ism by two millennia.
So the appeal to Christendom is not to “come home” but to “come back,” come back to the ancient faith that believes God’s word (even the foolishness of the “word of the cross,” 1 Cor. 1:18) - the faith through which God Himself justifies the “ungodly,” to the glory of Christ.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
That is a misrepresentation of your own position. Your signature leaves out the critical fact that Calvinism teaches that while “all” are called to repent only a select few are given the grace to actually repent.
S
sandusky
Guest
No misrepresentation by me, but misunderstanding by you.
The sig is a true statement, whether you understand it or not.
You still haven’t answered my question concerning those predestined “to grace.” :coffeeread:
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
M
moondweller
Guest
“For by grace you have been saved through faith…” It’s not complicated, Sean. No one is saved by or through loving God.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
I try to uncomplicate this as much as possible. Is intellectual faith all that required to be saved?
yes or no.
S
Seagirt
Guest
I Would say that both Kaycee and Sandusky are wrong in their understanding; partially cause of faulty exegesis. One of the best treatments of this endless Faith Alone stuff is Robert Sungenis book-- NOT BY FAITH ALONE-- here is an excerpt.
Code:
3) No Protestant has ever proved that dikaiosune is exclusively, or even preponderantly, a legal term. More specifically, there is no verse of Scripture that classifies dikaiosune as a legal term. Protestants claim that Paul is borrowing the meaning of dikaiosune from the Roman law court. Unfortunately for them, Paul never cites the Roman law court, or any legal terminology in vogue in the Roman legal system during that time, when he uses dikaiosune or its derivatives in the NT. Paul uses the model of the biblical Covenant as his one and only framework to explain justification, not the Roman law court. Get the Book.
K
kaycee
Guest
Actually Romans 6 proves that Faith and Works is NOT what Paul was preaching and the protestant understanding of Justification is correct.
That Martin Luther? He wasn’t so bad, says PopeTRENT is correct in its exposition on Paul in Romans. Luther was wrong and Reformed Protestantism is wrong. Case closed.
According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.
timesonline.co.uk:80/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
You believe in Limited Atonement, that is Jesus died for a select few, the others never had a chance. I understand Calvinism in this regard, that signature is misleading on the same level as Mormonism using Christian phrases with very different understandings.
I showed clearly that some believe, are forgiven, love etc for a time but later fall away, that is predestination to grace by definition otherwise they wouldnt be able to do those things. Your ONLY option is to argue that the person didnt really believe and wasnt really forgiven and never really loved.
The fact, proven by your clear refusal to interact with the passages I have provided, is that the Catholic position has harmonized the Scriptures far better than you have.
S
sandusky
Guest
Catholic Dude:
And whose fault is that?
The non-elect do have a chance, but they won’t come, and that’s not because they are any different from the elect—both the elect and non-elect are made from the ”same lump,” and that is God’s right to do Paul says (Rom 9:21).
So, IMO, you don’t understand.
Those who refuse to come are fully equipped with God-given reasoning abilities, and a God-given conscience, and they have been given knowledge of God, as the scripture says, “what may known of God is within them because God ” ’has made it evident to them.’ For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse” (Rom 1:19, 20).
The reason they won’t come is a moral reason—they love themselves more than they love the creator, and, they suppress the truth of the creator in their moral unrighteousness (Rom 1:18, 21, 22, 23, 24)—they know, but they are in rebellion, and refuse to repent, and they turned over to their sin.
In the end, they get what they deserve from God—Justice.
OTOH, the elect do come; not because of they are more special than, or smarter than, or any reason other than God gives them the ability to repent (2 Tim 2:25), and they are made sorrowful over their sin, and that sorrow coming about by the will of God causes repentance that leads to salvation (2 Cor 7:10).
In the end, they get what they don’t deserve from God—Mercy.
So the non-elect know, but refuse to believe, as the quote from Calvin truthfully states in my sig.
Catholic Dude:
But you’ve offered no proof that those words mean what you say they do.
The question that you have yet to answer still awaits:**Where in Sacred Writ is a statement that describes the group that Catholics claim God predestined to grace only—He foreknew them, predestined them to grace, called and justified them, and then lets many of them lose their justification and be condemned to hell?
Where is that stated?**
That’s the problem—that’s how you understand…but you don’t, no matter how much you insist that you do, and, IMO, that’s because you don’t have a sound biblical anthropology.
And whose fault is that?
The non-elect do have a chance, but they won’t come, and that’s not because they are any different from the elect—both the elect and non-elect are made from the ”same lump,” and that is God’s right to do Paul says (Rom 9:21).
So, IMO, you don’t understand.
Those who refuse to come are fully equipped with God-given reasoning abilities, and a God-given conscience, and they have been given knowledge of God, as the scripture says, “what may known of God is within them because God ” ’has made it evident to them.’ For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse” (Rom 1:19, 20).
The reason they won’t come is a moral reason—they love themselves more than they love the creator, and, they suppress the truth of the creator in their moral unrighteousness (Rom 1:18, 21, 22, 23, 24)—they know, but they are in rebellion, and refuse to repent, and they turned over to their sin.
In the end, they get what they deserve from God—Justice.
OTOH, the elect do come; not because of they are more special than, or smarter than, or any reason other than God gives them the ability to repent (2 Tim 2:25), and they are made sorrowful over their sin, and that sorrow coming about by the will of God causes repentance that leads to salvation (2 Cor 7:10).
In the end, they get what they don’t deserve from God—Mercy.
So the non-elect know, but refuse to believe, as the quote from Calvin truthfully states in my sig.
Catholic Dude:
That’s because for you, shipwreck, stumble, fall, fall away, etc., are emotive buzzwords to which you wrongly assign the meaning, ”loss of salvation,” as I’ve said before.
But you’ve offered no proof that those words mean what you say they do.
The question that you have yet to answer still awaits:**Where in Sacred Writ is a statement that describes the group that Catholics claim God predestined to grace only—He foreknew them, predestined them to grace, called and justified them, and then lets many of them lose their justification and be condemned to hell?
Where is that stated?**
G
guanophore
Guest
I am appalled that you are referring to the words of Holy Scripture as “emotional buzzwords”. The words you like are inspired, and inerrant, but the words you don’t are “emotional buzzwords”?
Catholics do not presume to have attained salvation until we are united with our imperishable inheritance in heaven. One cannot “lose” something that one has not yet obtained.
[/indent]
The wages of sin is death. The wage does not change, just because one has been declared justified. The bond of sins (warrant) is set aside when one comes to faith in Christ. However, one can go out, and earn another warrant. Their last state is worse than the first. In the first place, they were condemned to death. In the second, they crucify the son of God afresh, spurning His grace.
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Pax
Guest
The relationship between faith and works in salvation.
In my previous post I pointed out that we are saved by grace, and that the entirety of our salvation is contained in the entirety of the gospel. If we ignore part of the gospel we will invariably ignore part of the plan for salvation. If we ignore part of the gospel we will ignore part of the truth which is Jesus Christ. We will in fact be living and preaching a different gospel. The apostle Paul gives us warning about listening to a “different gospel.” If we pit faith and works against one another we are preaching a different gospel. If we ignore what scripture says about either faith or works, we are preaching a different gospel.
It is the whole gospel religion that is our faith. Paul tells us that the whole of Judaism and the OT law does not save, and He argues the same thing against all Gentile religions and their dead works of the natural man.
God’s gift of salvation comes through Jesus and is fully contained in the gospel. What does this mean? It means that we believe in Jesus Christ as our “Lord” and “Savior,” and that we accept and live according to** everything **that Jesus taught. This is the total of our “faith.” The implications of this are extremely clear and they are fatal to the non-Catholic view of salvation especially as it pertains to faith and works. Faith and works cannot be pitted against one another, and they cannot be separated from one another when it comes to salvation. James tells us the following:
James 2:24-25
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone…For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”
This passage says two very important things. First of all, it emphatically contradicts the non-Catholic notion that we are justified by faith alone. It then goes on to make it clear why this is so by James analogy of the body and spirit to faith and works. In the analogy “faith” = "the body" and “works” = “the spirit.” Now think about this…A human being is alive when the body and spirit are united in the individual. When the two become separated a human being is dead. The body and spirit form a person. Likewise justification is formed by faith and works. If they are separated the faith is dead and their is no justification. There is an enormous amount of additional scripture that shows that works are a necessary part of salvation. The following examples are not exhaustive but they should suffice in making the point:
Deu 7:9-10
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.
Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."
Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,
Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Romans 2: 6-8
For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Romans 8:12-14
So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Romans 15:17-18
In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed,
Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
The works spoken of in these verses are not those that Paul argues against. These works are the Christian works commanded by Jesus in the gospels. It is important to accept the implications of what Jesus says in such things as:
“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
and,
“If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it.”
Jesus is telling us that works are every bit as important as faith because they cannot be separated from saving faith. The things Jesus and the apostles tell us about works must be “believed, accepted, and lived.” These works are not of ourselves but of the gospel given to us by Jesus Himself. They are part of the truth of Jesus…the truth that sets us free.
The non-Catholic would like to take what Paul says and twist it to mean that works are unnecessary, but this is not true. Paul says that the Jewish religion and OT works of law are ineffectual for salvation. Likewise, Paul says that works done by Gentile pagans are also ineffectual. Neither provides the atonement and redemption provided by Jesus sacrifice on the cross which is the key and source of all grace within the Christian religion of the gospel.
cont. on next post
In my previous post I pointed out that we are saved by grace, and that the entirety of our salvation is contained in the entirety of the gospel. If we ignore part of the gospel we will invariably ignore part of the plan for salvation. If we ignore part of the gospel we will ignore part of the truth which is Jesus Christ. We will in fact be living and preaching a different gospel. The apostle Paul gives us warning about listening to a “different gospel.” If we pit faith and works against one another we are preaching a different gospel. If we ignore what scripture says about either faith or works, we are preaching a different gospel.
It is the whole gospel religion that is our faith. Paul tells us that the whole of Judaism and the OT law does not save, and He argues the same thing against all Gentile religions and their dead works of the natural man.
God’s gift of salvation comes through Jesus and is fully contained in the gospel. What does this mean? It means that we believe in Jesus Christ as our “Lord” and “Savior,” and that we accept and live according to** everything **that Jesus taught. This is the total of our “faith.” The implications of this are extremely clear and they are fatal to the non-Catholic view of salvation especially as it pertains to faith and works. Faith and works cannot be pitted against one another, and they cannot be separated from one another when it comes to salvation. James tells us the following:
James 2:24-25
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone…For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”
This passage says two very important things. First of all, it emphatically contradicts the non-Catholic notion that we are justified by faith alone. It then goes on to make it clear why this is so by James analogy of the body and spirit to faith and works. In the analogy “faith” = "the body" and “works” = “the spirit.” Now think about this…A human being is alive when the body and spirit are united in the individual. When the two become separated a human being is dead. The body and spirit form a person. Likewise justification is formed by faith and works. If they are separated the faith is dead and their is no justification. There is an enormous amount of additional scripture that shows that works are a necessary part of salvation. The following examples are not exhaustive but they should suffice in making the point:
Deu 7:9-10
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.
Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."
Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,
Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Romans 2: 6-8
For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Romans 8:12-14
So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Romans 15:17-18
In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed,
Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
The works spoken of in these verses are not those that Paul argues against. These works are the Christian works commanded by Jesus in the gospels. It is important to accept the implications of what Jesus says in such things as:
“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
and,
“If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it.”
Jesus is telling us that works are every bit as important as faith because they cannot be separated from saving faith. The things Jesus and the apostles tell us about works must be “believed, accepted, and lived.” These works are not of ourselves but of the gospel given to us by Jesus Himself. They are part of the truth of Jesus…the truth that sets us free.
The non-Catholic would like to take what Paul says and twist it to mean that works are unnecessary, but this is not true. Paul says that the Jewish religion and OT works of law are ineffectual for salvation. Likewise, Paul says that works done by Gentile pagans are also ineffectual. Neither provides the atonement and redemption provided by Jesus sacrifice on the cross which is the key and source of all grace within the Christian religion of the gospel.
cont. on next post
P
Pax
Guest
continued from prior post:
CHRISTIAN WORKS IN GOD’S PLAN OF SALVATION
The Jewish works of the OT Law and the works of a gentile are simply the works of the natural unregenerated man. Both groups are equal in this regard. Christian works differ from both because they are not only commanded by Jesus, but because they are given to us by the Father and these works are propelled by God’s grace. There is nothing that the unregenerated man can do to please God, lift himself out of sin, or bring himself into a state of justification. The regenerated man can please God because he has put on Christ, Christ is in the regenerated man, and the Holy Spirit dwells within him. The regenerated man now lives in the Spirit and is lead by the Spirit. The regenerated man no longer lives in the flesh which leads to death, but instead lives in the Spirit who gives life.
Ephesians 2:8-10 explains this all very well and forms the perfect bridge between Paul and James. The passage says:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
It is clear that our justification is by grace and is grounded in faith which is a gift. We had nothing to do with this. We are, instead, God’s workmanship…our works had nothing to do with the free gift when we are brought from unbelief into belief. God’s workmanship simultaneously extends to making us a “new creation in Christ Jesus for good works.” Moreover, the good works that we are to do as a new creation in Christ Jesus were prepared by the Father in advance of our slavation. This is incredibly important to remember, and it is the crucial thing that is overlooked in non-Catholic doctrine. Moreover, it speaks to the analogy used by James in comparing faith and works to the body and spirit. The reason that faith and works are inextricably connected to salvation is because that is the workmanship of God within us. It is God’s grace that transforms and makes us a new creation in Christ Jesus. It is God that is the author of the good works we are to do in Christ Jesus, and it is God graces that enables the regenerated man to do the works authored by the Father in advance of our justification.
Everything is by way of God’s grace and none of it is possible without God’s grace. All of the credit and glory goes to God.
I will make additional posts to continue this theme later.
CHRISTIAN WORKS IN GOD’S PLAN OF SALVATION
The Jewish works of the OT Law and the works of a gentile are simply the works of the natural unregenerated man. Both groups are equal in this regard. Christian works differ from both because they are not only commanded by Jesus, but because they are given to us by the Father and these works are propelled by God’s grace. There is nothing that the unregenerated man can do to please God, lift himself out of sin, or bring himself into a state of justification. The regenerated man can please God because he has put on Christ, Christ is in the regenerated man, and the Holy Spirit dwells within him. The regenerated man now lives in the Spirit and is lead by the Spirit. The regenerated man no longer lives in the flesh which leads to death, but instead lives in the Spirit who gives life.
Ephesians 2:8-10 explains this all very well and forms the perfect bridge between Paul and James. The passage says:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
It is clear that our justification is by grace and is grounded in faith which is a gift. We had nothing to do with this. We are, instead, God’s workmanship…our works had nothing to do with the free gift when we are brought from unbelief into belief. God’s workmanship simultaneously extends to making us a “new creation in Christ Jesus for good works.” Moreover, the good works that we are to do as a new creation in Christ Jesus were prepared by the Father in advance of our slavation. This is incredibly important to remember, and it is the crucial thing that is overlooked in non-Catholic doctrine. Moreover, it speaks to the analogy used by James in comparing faith and works to the body and spirit. The reason that faith and works are inextricably connected to salvation is because that is the workmanship of God within us. It is God’s grace that transforms and makes us a new creation in Christ Jesus. It is God that is the author of the good works we are to do in Christ Jesus, and it is God graces that enables the regenerated man to do the works authored by the Father in advance of our justification.
Everything is by way of God’s grace and none of it is possible without God’s grace. All of the credit and glory goes to God.
I will make additional posts to continue this theme later.
M
moondweller
Guest
No.
You can know the message that Christ died for our sins, once for all (1 Pet. 3:18), and now forgiveness of sins is proclaimed (Acts 13:38) - but you don’t believe it. You can know that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Gen. 15:6) - but you don’t believe it. You can know that upon belief, and apart from works, God justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5) - but you don’t believe it.
So you, in your unbelief, add to the Gospel message and argue for works in your defense. You can claim Christ as Lord and do all sorts of works in His name (Matt. 7:21-23) - but yet you never believed, and Christ knows it.
There’s only one faith through which God saves and justifies, and that’s a humble faith. The faith of those who come to Him bearing nothing to offer and willing to receive everything in return according to His grace, believing what Christ has done, "once for all."
G
Gamera
Guest
Oh. Good. So we Catholics have it exactly right.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
If God has done it all, then he is responsible for the fall of Adam and Eve and we find ourselves with the religion of Divine failure. But the truth is, Adam and Eve freely chose to rebel against God by the exercise of their free will and so they were responsible for having committed the first sin. Adam and Eve were created in a state of sanctifying grace, but nevertheless they turned their backs on God by having freely rejected his grace. Despite being in the original state of grace (God only creates what is good.), Adam lost his faith in God and put his trust in the serpent. To deny any human responsibilty and participation in our salvation is to deny any human responsibility in the fall of the human race and lump it all on the Creator. In other words, if God has predestined an elect few to be saved, then he must have predestined the fall of Adam and Eve. But he couldn’t have done so, for they were created in a state of original grace. Since the beginning, then, it would appear man has been nothing but a robot with no free will of his own. By the will of God man was preprogrammed to sin for the sole purpose of an elect few to be saved. He created us simply to demonstrate his might, not out of love. If God is responsible for the fall, then where is the justice in our salvation? Justification cannot enter the picture unless man is initially and freely responsible for his failure and takes responsibility in reversing what he freely chose to bring about. To contend otherwise, one may as well be an athiest and a deterministic biologist.
Yet Scripture reveals that man has a free will. We read in Genesis 2, 16-17: And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” God commanded Adam not to eat the forbidden fruit. He did not predetermine or preprogram him to do so. And since Adam disobeyed God, he freely chose to do so, knowing he was not supposed to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Indeed, if Adam had no free will, a commandment from God would have been senseless. One may as well condemn the animal species for devouring each other in the ecological food chain.
Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not do the things that he hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for he has no need of the sinful man. The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his counsel. {Sirach 15, 11-14}
The original state of grace Adam and Eve were created in was not “imputed” but “infused” by God the Holy Spirit. We see in Genesis that our original parents experienced a change of heart against God, so the state of grace they were in could not have been imputed. In spite of being created in an original state of sanctifying grace, Adam abused his freedom at the beginning of his existence by elevating himself above God and attempting to reap the fruits of his existence without Him. And so the first man lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God. And so we are not justified and made righteous simply by a declaration of God who apparently covers up our sins. We are responsible for our transgressions. In order to be justified and made righteous, we must experience a change of heart towards God by first acknowledging our sins and then reforming our lives in a free response to the infusion of God’s grace by the Holy Spirit who works in us. And having inherited Adam’s sinful nature, we know that we are prone to reject God’s grace and fall from his friendship. To recover the original state of holiness and justice, lost through Adam, we must not freely and unfaithfully choose to reject God’s grace. God cannot be glorified unless we are free to say “Yes” to him by our own volition. If grace is as irresistible as Calvinists erroneously make it out to be, then the chosen few are nothing more than preprogrammed robots. :hypno:
The religion of Human Achievement is “God has done nothing, and I have done all.” This is Pelagianism: in order for us to do good, divine grace is unnecessary. This heretical teaching cancelled human free will.
Likewise, the heretical teaching of Faith Alone with regard to our justification before God cancels human free will, for it denies any human responsibility in God’s plan of salvation. Scripture is clear that God does not merely cover up our sins externally at the expense of our moral responsibilty - with no regard as to whether we experience a change of heart, amend our lives, and do his will - by juridically exonerating us because we have faith in the merits of Christ’s Passion. If it were the case, then we would have no reason to repent and invoke the Holy Spirit in our lives to " create a clean heart for [us]" and “renew in us a steadfast spirit”(Psalm 51, 12).
“I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” {Matthew 5, 20}
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father, he shall enter it.” {Matthew 7, 21}
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of his Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.” {Matthew 16, 27}
God has done some: He has graciously redeemed us and has opened the gates of heaven, offering us his saving grace. And man must exercise his faith in Christ by accepting and responding to the Divine gift of grace through obedience to the will of God. This is how we are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. Jesus taught we are capable of reaching this type of perfection in cooperation with God’s grace. And we are not made perfect in an instant merely by having faith in someone. :nope:
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
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