Faith Alone

[clmowry]

I am really not trying to be “judgmental” or “inflammatory” with the following (though I’m sure it will feel that way.)

But…

Do some of you “Faith Alone” folks just simply not read whole books of the bible?

I can understand as “reasonable” and “rational” an argument that:

We are saved by “Faith Alone” BUT “faith without good works is dead and is not therefore ‘saving’ Faith”.

But to make the claim that “good works” are in no way “required” for salvation is so “obviously” unbiblical that I’m lead to conclude that either you simply do not read “all” of scripture or that you are being intellectually dishonest (though perhaps just with yourself.)

I prefer not to believe anyone is being intentionally dishonest, so back to the original question.

Do you just stick with the books/verses that support your theological position and simply ignore the rest?

There must be a hundred New Testament verses that point towards the necessity of “works” in very explicit terms.

Yet some folks maintain that the necessity of good works in the life of the “elect” is something that the Catholic Church is making up.

Above someone even goes so far as to imply that believing in the necessity of good works is evidence of a lack of faith, or a poor faith. That if we had (real) “humble faith” we would go to Christ with “nothing” to offer.

I really do not get how a reasonable person can read the bible and come anywhere close to concluding that good works are not somehow a necessary part of “saving faith”.

This is one of the reason why I think that those who claim that we can get everything we need to know concerning faith and morals out of the bible alone, all by ourselves, are simply deluding themselves.

But to come to the conclusion that good works are somehow a demonstration of a lack of faith is so far from the truth “obviously” expressed in scripture that it just blows my mind that someone making that claim could have ever actually read “all” of the bible (even once.)

So would somebody that takes the hard line stance that “good works are absolutely not necessary in the life of the elect” explain it to me like I’m a 2 year old.

Cause I just do not get it.

(Hopefully the rhetoric involved in defending “faith alone” is simply leading me to misunderstand the position some of you are taking.)

Chuck

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Does intellectual faith save?

No.

What else is required for a “humble” faith that saves,outside of an intellectual faith?

A profession of faith, living your faith, anything else required to be saved?

 

[sandusky]

Good Fella:

If God has done it all, then he is responsible for the fall of Adam and Eve and we find ourselves with the religion of Divine failure.

It’s stated that elect were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world…and that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ at that time… How do you account for that?
Good Fella:

Adam and Eve were created in a state of sanctifying grace, but nevertheless they turned their backs on God by having freely rejected his grace. Despite being in the original state of grace (God only creates what is good.), Adam lost his faith in God and put his trust in the serpent.

That’s not what the scripture says; scripture says that Adam wasn’t deceived (1 Tim 2:14); Adam’s sin was putting his desire above God’s command.

Because of that, man now has an autonomous “streak” running through him, and he considers himself an authority unto himself; therefore, he rejects the authority of his Creator.
Good Fella:

To deny any human responsibilty and participation in our salvation is to deny any human responsibility in the fall of the human race and lump it all on the Creator.

Ones understanding of the effects of the fall upon the creature determines his understand of the fall’s corrective.

Adam was responsible for the fall, and the effect of Adam’s fall has rendered the creature unable to correct its effects; were the creature able to correct the effect of the fall, then God needn’t have come in the flesh and take upon Himself the punishment that man deserved.
Good Fella:

In other words, if God has predestined an elect few to be saved, then he must have predestined the fall of Adam and Eve.

Correct; God’s predestination in eternity past understands the fall as an eternal fact. There are no surprises for God.
Good Fella:

But he couldn’t have done so…

Why not?
Good Fella:

Since the beginning, then, it would appear man has been nothing but a robot with no free will of his own.

I find that to be an appeal to emotion. Sometimes that appeal is valid; it’s not valid when it’s used to manipulate, as I think it is, in this case.

Men are not robots, neither are men completely free. Men are utterly dependent upon God for all things.
Good Fella:

If God is responsible for the fall, then where is the justice in our salvation?

God didn’t make Adam sin; he freely chose to do so.
Good Fella:

Justification cannot enter the picture unless man is initially and freely responsible for his failure and takes responsibility in reversing what he freely chose to bring about.

Christ came to reverse the effects of man’s failure.

How is it you see that as man taking responsibility for reversing what he freely brought about?
Good Fella:

Yet Scripture reveals that man has a free will.

Define “free will,” and cite where Scripture says man has one.
Good Fella:

God cannot be glorified unless we are free to say “Yes” to him by our own volition.

You infer that some say man doesn’t freely choose to say “yes” to God. Who says that? And, please be specific.
Good Fella:

If grace is as irresistible as Calvinists erroneously make it out to be, then the chosen few are nothing more than preprogrammed robots.

How so?

Likewise, the heretical teaching of Faith Alone with regard to our justification before God cancels human free will, for it denies any human responsibility in God’s plan of salvation.

You mention Calvin. Please specifically list where Calvin denies any human responsibility in God’s plan of salvation?
Good Fella:

Scripture is clear that God does not merely cover up our sins externally at the expense of our moral responsibilty - with no regard as to whether we experience a change of heart, amend our lives…

Please list the specific teaching by Calvin that God merely covers up our sins externally at the expense of our moral responsibility with no regard as to whether we experience a change of heart, or amend our lives…?

 

[emeraldisle]

If God has done it all, then he is responsible for the fall of Adam and Eve and we find ourselves with the religion of Divine failure.

Do/Done in the context of salvation

Do = people vainly seeking to earn their salvation

Done = Christ Jesus’ finished work on the cross provides salvation

Faith/Works in the context of salvation

Faith = accepting Christ Jesus’ finished work on the cross for your salvation

Works = a thankful life of service unto the God who has saved you

.

 

[moondweller]

Oh. Good. So we Catholics have it exactly right.

Such faith is not consigned to Catholics, Protestants, “ists,” or “isms.” God saves and justifies individual men and women through faith - not religions.

 

[moondweller]

Does intellectual faith save?

What else is required for a “humble” faith that saves,outside of an intellectual faith?

A profession of faith, living your faith, anything else required to be saved?

I’ll reiterate:There’s only one faith through which God saves and justifies, and that’s a humble faith. The faith of those who come to Him bearing nothing to offer and willing to freely receive everything in return according to His grace (unmerited favor), believing what Christ has done, "once for all."Sean, read Jn. 9:13-34. Why do you think the Pharisees kept asking the blind man how he received his sight?

 

[sandusky]

clmowry:

Do some of you “Faith Alone” folks just simply not read whole books of the bible?

Of course not; what I believe I believe on the basis of the complete testimony.

clmowry:

I can understand as “reasonable” and “rational” an argument that:

We are saved by “Faith Alone” BUT “faith without good works is dead and is not therefore ‘saving’ Faith”.

But to make the claim that “good works” are in no way “required” for salvation is so “obviously” unbiblical that I’m lead to conclude that either you simply do not read “all” of scripture or that you are being intellectually dishonest (though perhaps just with yourself.)

Who saves? God completely? Or, God, and you.

Let’s say that God has predetermined to elect every person who dies in infancy to salvation; are works a requirement for their election/salvation? If not for them, then why for anyone else?

By grace you have been saved…

Both of us agree that grace is necessary for salvation; I, however, go beyond that and say that grace is also sufficient for salvation, as Eph 2:8 and other passages state.

clmowry:

Do you just stick with the books/verses that support your theological position and simply ignore the rest?

There must be a hundred New Testament verses that point towards the necessity of “works” in very explicit terms.

What do you mean by “necessity of works?” That it’s works that save you?

clmowry:

Yet some folks maintain that the necessity of good works in the life of the “elect” is something that the Catholic Church is making up.

It’s not that the church is “making up” works as necessary, but that they say salvation is contingent upon works—that’s work/righteousness.

clmowry:

This is one of the reason why I think that those who claim that we can get everything we need to know concerning faith and morals out of the bible alone, all by ourselves, are simply deluding themselves.

Because they view post-salvation works differently than you; it’s clear that someone is mistaken; have you ever considered that it’s you?

clmowry:

But to come to the conclusion that good works are somehow a demonstration of a lack of faith is so far from the truth “obviously” expressed in scripture that it just blows my mind that someone making that claim could have ever actually read “all” of the bible (even once.)

Who has said that good works demonstrate a lack of faith?

clmowry:

So would somebody that takes the hard line stance that “good works are absolutely not necessary in the life of the elect” explain it to me like I’m a 2 year old.

Cause I just do not get it.

I’m certain that the Lord expects the saints to present themselves before Him in the kingdom having done good works.

I’m equally certain that He expects them to understand that those good works are not the reason they are present with Him in the kingdom.

Those who are in the kingdom are in the kingdom by grace, and for no other reason.

 

[Gamera]

Who has said that good works demonstrate a lack of faith?

I’ve encountered exactly that claim when I’ve stated that God expects us to obey Him. I’ve received responses such as, “Stop trying to please God. You can’t do it,” and, “If salvation is about you, get ready for the heat.” Nice, huh?

 

[Gamera]

Who saves? God completely? Or, God, and you.

Wait — “God completely?” You think a person doesn’t need to “do” anything, such as repent, pray for forgiveness, throw himself at the mercy of Jesus, anything like that? A person plays no role in his own salvation?

 

[Gamera]

I’ll reiterate:

There’s only one faith through which God saves and justifies, and that’s a humble faith. The faith of those who come to Him bearing nothing to offer and willing to freely receive everything in return according to His grace (unmerited favor), believing what Christ has done, “once for all.”
​

Oh, so you’re Catholic?​

 

[guanophore]

Adam’s sin was putting his desire above God’s command.

Because of that, man now has an autonomous “streak” running through him, and he considers himself an authority unto himself; therefore, he rejects the authority of his Creator.

Man had an autonomos “streak” running through him at the moment of his creation. he was created in the image and likeness of God, with free will.

Ones understanding of the effects of the fall upon the creature determines his understand of the fall’s corrective.

Yes, I agree with you. This is why we reject the innovation of “total depravity”.

Define “free will,” and cite where Scripture says man has one.

19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, Deut 30:19

God sets before us two ways. It is up to us to choose which way we wish to go. I agree that man is not completely free, but has freedom within the boundaries that God has set.

 

[guanophore]

Who saves? God completely? Or, God, and you.

I think it is more accurate to say God “in” you. It is He who is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. Who saves?

Jude 20-23
20 But you, beloved**, build yourselves up** on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21** keep yourselves in the love of God;** wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And convince some, who doubt; 23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Can a person build themselves up in faith?
Can a person keep oneself in the love of God?
Can one person save another from eternal fire?

Let’s say that God has predetermined to elect every person who dies in infancy to salvation; are works a requirement for their election/salvation? If not for them, then why for anyone else?

God chooses. For some, he has prepared good works that He wants them to do. Shall the clay say unto the potter, why hast thou made me thus?

By grace you have been saved…

Both of us agree that grace is necessary for salvation; I, however, go beyond that and say that grace is also sufficient for salvation, as Eph 2:8 and other passages state.

What do you mean by “necessity of works?” That it’s works that save you?

I think this is a common custom of evangelicals, who fail to read through to verse 10 of this passage.

It seems that you fail to distinguish between sacred works, and works of the flesh. As long as you do this, you will not be able to grasp the Apostolic Teaching on the role of works.

Jesus instructed the Apostles to "teach all that I have commanded. Paul writes here that “we should walk” in the good works. How then does obedience seem unnecessary?

Because they view post-salvation works differently than you; it’s clear that someone is mistaken; have you ever considered that it’s you?

Sure! What I have learned is that salvation, according to the teaching of Jesus, is not an event that happens once in time, for all time. Therefore, there is no such thing as “post-salvation works” in this life.

I’m certain that the Lord expects the saints to present themselves before Him in the kingdom having done good works.
I’m equally certain that He expects them to understand that those good works are not the reason they are present with Him in the kingdom.

Do you imagine that these good works issue from the flesh?

Those who are in the kingdom are in the kingdom by grace, and for no other reason.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

 

[Pax]

There is a serious defect in the faith alone theology related to grace. Here is an example of what non-Catholics have to say about justification by faith alone:

James Buchanan states that “justification by faith is a legal or forensic term used in scripture to denote the acceptance of anyone as righteous in the sight of God.”

The Westminster statement on justification says:
“Justification is altogether a legal declarative act on God’s part as the supreme judge. We deny that justification is any sense a moral transformation or inner renewal. In justification, God legally declares the sinner who in himself is still guilty and polluted to be righteous in Christ. Justification involves only the legal imputation or legal account of the perfect righteousness of Christ to the sinner. We deny that justification is by a grace at conversion that enables sinners to do the law unto their justification.”

Let’s examine what is going on here. In Buchanan’s statement and the Westminster statement on justification, it is quite clear that there is no belief that there is anything “regenerative” in our justification. A person “being born again in water and Spirit” no longer has any meaning. The terms “living in the Spirit, having Christ within us, being a new creation in Christ Jesus, and others” no longer have any meaning. These statements on justification have effectively done exactly what is spoken of in 2 Timothy 3:5 where we are told that there will be those that hold “the form of religion but deny its power.” Likewise, these statements are in direct contradiction to Ephesians 2:10 which says that “…we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” This verse and many others may as well be blotted out of the bible.

This is very odd when we look at what scripture says about grace. The following passages are great examples about the power associated with grace:

Psalm 40:10
I have not hidden your saving help within my heart, I have spoken of your faithfulness and your salvation;

Psalm 94:17-19
If the LORD had not been my help, my soul would soon have lived in the land of silence. When I thought, “My foot is slipping,” your steadfast love, O LORD, held me up.

Rom 5:17
If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

Phill 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

1 Cor 10:13
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Eph 6:10-11
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his power. Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Col 1:11
May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, and may you be prepared to endure everything with joy

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace,

1 Peter 4:10-11
Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

2 Peter 1: 3-4
His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

These passages show us the power of God’s grace and what it does within us. They demonstrate that we can do nothing without God’s grace. They also demonstrate what we are able to do by way of God’s grace. Once again, all Christian works are commanded by God, prepared by God prior to our justification, and accomplished by God’s grace. We do not have reason to take credit for either our faith or our works. We give the credit and glory to the source which is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

There is a serious defect in the faith alone theology related to grace. Here is an example of what non-Catholics have to say about justification by faith alone:

James Buchanan states that “justification by faith is a legal or forensic term used in scripture to denote the acceptance of anyone as righteous in the sight of God.”

The Westminster statement on justification says:
“Justification is altogether a legal declarative act on God’s part as the supreme judge. We deny that justification is any sense a moral transformation or inner renewal. In justification, God legally declares the sinner who in himself is still guilty and polluted to be righteous in Christ. Justification involves only the legal imputation or legal account of the perfect righteousness of Christ to the sinner. We deny that justification is by a grace at conversion that enables sinners to do the law unto their justification.”

Let’s examine what is going on here. In Buchanan’s statement and the Westminster statement on justification, it is quite clear that there is no belief that there is anything “regenerative” in our justification. A person “being born again in water and Spirit” no longer has any meaning. The terms “living in the Spirit, having Christ within us, being a new creation in Christ Jesus, and others” no longer have any meaning. These statements on justification have effectively done exactly what is spoken of in 2 Timothy 3:5 where we are told that there will be those that hold “the form of religion but deny its power.” Likewise, these statements are in direct contradiction to Ephesians 2:10 which says that “…we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” This verse and many others may as well be blotted out of the bible.

This is very odd when we look at what scripture says about grace. The following passages are great examples about the power associated with grace:

The defect’s in your post, Pax—you didn’t read far enough in the WCF.

What you bemoan as absent is covered in the section on Sanctification, Chapter 13:
I. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.

III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[sandusky]

Gamera:

I’ve encountered exactly that claim when I’ve stated that God expects us to obey Him. I’ve received responses such as, **“Stop trying to please God. You can’t do it,” and, “If salvation is about you, get ready for the heat.” **Nice, huh?

I meant anyone on this thread.

Nevertheless, that’s really bad theology.

 

[Pax]

We cannot separate faith and works anymore than we can break apart Jesus and Christ from Jesus Christ. In each case both are part of the whole.

Here is another perspective to consider. In my post #396 I quoted passages that show the connection of works to salvation. Many more can be quoted to show that works play a role in salvation just as faith plays a role in salvation. The important thing to keep in mind is that **there is only one “eternal life.” **Faith and works are part of the same whole Christian gospel, the whole truth of the good news taught by Jesus.

Let’s take a look at many of the passages in the NT that speak of how we are saved. We all agree on the necessity of faith for salvation, so I will not list the passages that speak to faith. The important thing is to read the verses that speak of other things that bring us to salvation. Such things automatically contradict the notion that we are saved by faith “alone.”

So what does scripture say about baptism and salvation?

Acts: 2:40-41
And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” So those who welcomed his message were** baptized**, and that day about three thousand persons were added.

Rom 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21
And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you-not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

So what does scripture say about grace and salvation?

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God–not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom 3:24
they are now justified by his **grace **as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Eph 2:4-6
the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by **grace **you have been saved-and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ

So what does scripture say about Hope and salvation?

Rom 8:24
For we are saved by hope:

Eph 1:11-12
In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory.

Heb 3:6
Christ, however, was faithful over God’s house as a son, and we are his house if we hold firm the confidence and the pride that belong to hope.

Heb 6:11 And we want each one of you to show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope to the very end,

What does scipture say about obedience and salvation?

Deu 7:9-10
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; **whoever disobeys **the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who **obey **him."

Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

1 Peter 1: 2
to the exiles…who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit **to be obedient **to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

Rev 12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children,** those who keep the commandments of God** and hold the testimony of Jesus.

I can show more passages of scripture associated with love, sanctification, and endurance that are necessary and connected to salvation. In no case can we claim that anyone of these things “alone” can save us. We can say that we are saved by “grace alone” because it is the source for all of the others. All of the others are necessary for salvation and none of them can be associated with the word “alone.” Once again, we are talking about the whole of the Christian gospel religion as necessary for salvation.

 

[Pax]

The defect’s in your post, Pax—you didn’t read far enough in the WCF.

What you bemoan as absent is covered in the section on Sanctification, Chapter 13:
I. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man; yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.

III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The problem remains. They deny the connection of regeneration at justification in the fashion stated in scripture. They deny that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared beforehand. They state these things differently than does scripture. Likewise, they make the mistake of making it appear that there is a complete and distinct separation between justification and sanctification. This simply is not the case.

Scripture says: “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”[1 Cor 6:11] This is the simultaneous action of God’s grace when we come to belief from unbelief. It is true that we are further sanctified during our Christian walk.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Such faith is not consigned to Catholics, Protestants, “ists,” or “isms.” God saves and justifies individual men and women through faith - not religions. Didn’t Christ promise the he would build his Church on a solid foundation, rock in fact? Christ’s church wasn’t a belief or an emotion, it was a Church. If it was a belief or emotion then he would have said so.

News flash…

Protestants, ists, isms are a break off branch, a splinter group, separated brethen of the Catholic Church. Christianity comes to you thru the Catholic Church. Why do you think it is called “protestant”, they were literially protesting Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church.

 

[sandusky]

Gamera:

Wait — “God completely?” You think a person doesn’t need to “do” anything, such as repent, pray for forgiveness, throw himself at the mercy of Jesus, anything like that? A person plays no role in his own salvation?

They’ve got to repent and believe, but that’s part of the gift of salvation; repentance is granted (2 Tim 2:25), faith is granted (Eph 2:8ff; Php 1:29) life is given (Eph2:5 ff; cf Jn 5:24).

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

The problem remains. They deny the connection of regeneration at justification in the fashion stated in scripture.

No they don’t, Pax. Show me where either of your sources says ”we deny the connection of regeneration at justification…?”

Pax:

They deny that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared beforehand.

No they don’t, Pax. Show me where either of your sources says ”we deny that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared beforehand…?”

Pax:

Likewise, they make the mistake of making it appear that there is a complete and distinct separation between justification and sanctification. This simply is not the case.

No they don’t, Pax. They link the two, just not as closely as the CC does in which the two become, essentially, one.

The justification that one receives is on the basis of the righteousness of Christ; therefore, it’s God’s righteousness “in Christ” that the believer obtains (2 Cor 5:17), thus his position before God is one of perfect justification, perfect righteousness; therefore, he is no longer guilty before God, he has peace with God, and he is no longer subject to any condemnation (Col 2:13ff; Rom 5:1ff; Rom 8:1ff; cf 5:24).

Also, that means that no one is more righteous than another one—justification “levels the field” in that respect. However, one may be more “sanctified” than another.

Pax:

Scripture says: “you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”[1 Cor 6:11] This is the simultaneous action of God’s grace when we come to belief from unbelief.

Here there is a slight difference. Rather than simultaneous, I see all of the initial aspects of faith as “instantaneous.” (I think there is an ordered sequence to the events).