Faith Alone

[Pax]

And now you have brushed off the first few verses of 1 John chapter three which sets the context for verses seven and eight:

1 Jn. 3:1-3 "See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and we are.
…
​

Wrong again…I have not brushed anything off. The fact is that you do not even understand what you just quoted. This verse, once again, is a passage that utterly destroys you concept of imputed righteousness.

John says something very important here. He points out “…that we would be called children of God.” Now think about this in light of Isaiah 55:11 which says, “…so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.” God’s word goes out in power. So when God said “let there be light there was light.”

Likewise, when John says that because of God “we would be called children of God” then we actually become his children. It is for this reason that John goes on to say, “and so we are.” This is an ontological change. This is God’s love for us going out in power to change us. This is an infused righteousness. This is not an imputation.​

 

[ryanoneil]

we were discussing John 15

Where in that passage is God’s foreknowledge, predestination to grace, His calling and justification mentioned?

That is hard to answer intelligently without knowing your definition of the above terms.

In order to be a branch “in” Jesus does one need all of the above terms?

According to my understanding the answer is yes.

How do you square the above passage with Jesus saying that His sheep will never perish (Jn 10)? How do you square the above passage with the fact that it’s the Father’s will that of all those given by Him to the Son that the Son should lose none (Jn 6)?

John 10:28 doesn’t say we can’t leave His hands. If we choose to walk away from Him, are we still His sheep?

John 6:39 says Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

Does this verse square with your understanding of John 6 and 10?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Pax]

…
…

1 John 3:24 “The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us…”[/indent]John’s letters were written to warn those early believers of the false doctrines and practices of the Gnostics of their day and whose teaching and practices had penetrated the churches. So in his letters John contrasts the two: those who are the children of God (through faith in Christ), and the Gnostics who are not. In verses seven and eight, which you pull out of context, John warns the believers, distinguishing them as “little children” (referring to their being “children of God”) saying, “let no one deceive you…,” and contrasts the character of the children of God with that of those who are of the world and of the devil1 John 3:7-9 …"the one who practices (present tense = habitually practices) righteousness is (not becomes) righteous, just as He (Christ, in whom he is) is righteous; the one who practices sin (present tense = habitually) is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin (habitually), (why?) because His seed abides (continually) in him; and he cannot sin (habitually), (why?) because he is born of God."John is presenting a warning for those believers to be on the alert and to clearly identify those who ARE the “children of God” from those who are not. He is not presenting conditions for salvation or how to achieve righteousness before God.

You are correct in your assessment of habitual sin, but your statements and quotes merely reinforce “infused righteousness” versus imputed. You mention that the believer does not sin habitually(i.e. lead a sinful life style) "because he is born of God…and that His seed abides in him. These are quotes that only support the Catholic teaching of infused righteousness…there is no sense of this being an imputed righteousness.

Christ came in order to destroy the works of the devil (i.e., all made sinners through Adam), and that through His redemptive work on cross:.Rom 3:23-24 "…for all sinned (past tense = in Adam) and fall short (present tense = continually) of the glory of God, being justified (how?) as a gift (by what means?) by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"No, John warns them not to be deceived. And the way they can protect themselves from deception is by clearly identifying the character of the “children of God” from those of the devil.John states no such thing in his letters. But he does say this concerning the "children of God:"1 John 5:11-13 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

You’ve got some real problems here. You admit that John is giving a warning and that the believers need protection. This warning and the need for protection is for the purpose of their salvation. If this is not the case then there is no need for the warning.

1 John 5:18-20 "We know that no one who is born of God sins (habitually); but He who was born (i.e., Christ) of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in {the power of} the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."There’s that positional truth again, Pax. That glorious truth concerning believers which you brush off so easily to support your doctrine of works.You err, Pax. Regeneration is not justification. Regeneration gives the believer new life, a new nature. Justification gives (gifts) the believer, who is regenerated, a whole new standing before God (Rom. 3:24).

John uses the word “abide(s)” 22 times in this letter. The word abide is obviously a significant term in the epistle and it really makes it clear what one of the main themes happens to be. The word “abide” means to “remain.” John happens to use this term frequently in his second epistle as well. Moreover, Jesus also uses the term, and he uses it the same way John does. You’ve talked about context. Let’s get real here and look at the context of the letter as it is written with the word “abide” as the obvious anchor.

In 1 John 2:3-6 we learn something about the word “abide/remain” and works which you deny. The passage says:

“And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he **abides **in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”

We also read this in 1 John 3:24
“All who keep his commandments abide[remain] in him, and he in them.”

We also read this in 1 John 2:17
" And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever."

And here is the clincher:

1 John 2:24
"Let what you heard from the beginning abide[remain] in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides[remains] in you, then you will abide[remain] in the Son and in the Father."

So John tells the believers to “Let” what they heard remain in them, and he then uses the qualifier “if” thus making it clear that there is a provisional character to remaining in Christ and in the Father.

There are many other provisional statements like this in scripture and Paul uses them in his letters as well.

I sincerely hope this helps.

 

[guanophore]

God provides the clothing, guanophore, always has. The ancient replacement of fig leaves for animal skins - which required the shedding of blood (Gen. 3:7 vs. 21):Gen 3:21 “The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.”

Then we are in agreement on that point. I think where we might disagree is that Apostolic teaching is that we must cooperate with being clothed. God does not just dress us while we are passive, like some valet. One of these actions is baptism, which the believer chooses.

" For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. " Gal 3:27-28

This is also why persons of Apostolic faiths beleive that baptism regenerates.

The garment of faith creates a new nature:

“…**put on **the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.” Eph 4:24

God provides the clothing, and the grace to put it on. Humans take an active part in putting on Christ.

The difficulty with the passages is yours**—You don’t believe.**

I have no difficulty with the passages. I know that humans have always been saved by grace, through faith. This is the story of Abraham. Such persons are made righteous by faith. There have always been righteous persons who seek for God.

Faith alone was one of the points of the reformation, guanophore, and that’s not because the RCC believed in it, rather than in salvation by works. No matter what you say this day, Trent’s infallible declarations concerning the role of works in salvation still stand.

Clearly Luther did not understand the teachings of the Church, which have not changed since the Reformation. The Catholic Church produced the NT, and it’s contents is entirely consistent with Catholic teaching. The Apostles taught that we are saved by faith that works.

My statement was in response to this statement by your Catholic fellow, Good Fella, in which he said, ”Our free will is that stone only God can create in order to be too heavy for him to lift. God does not impose himself on us.”

That’s a Catholic as well as an Arminian belief.

Yes, I read the statement. But this is not Catholic teaching. Nothing is too heavy for God to lift. God allows His creatures to turn from Him.

Now what’s that you were saying about heretical beliefs again?

God desires that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. He chooses not to have His desire, so that His creatures can choose Him. Anything contrary to Apostolic Teaching in this matter is heretical, whether it is professed by a person that claims to be Catholic, Arminian, or whatever.

God chooses to allow us to work together with Him in the process of salvation:

“Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” 2 Cor 6:1

 

[sandusky]

ryanoneil:

That is hard to answer intelligently without knowing your definition of the above terms.

You’re stalling Ryan, IMO. The terms are clear, and not difficult to understand. Rather than go down that rabbit trail with you, I’ll tell you that you cannot find the definition I request for the group you claim exists, because they don’t exist, and therefore, there can be no definition. Scripture speaks of two groups—the elect to eternal life, and the non-elect.

ryanoneil:

In order to be a branch “in” Jesus does one need all of the above terms?

According to my understanding the answer is yes.

Those in Jn 5 are believers, and the passage is not about salvation, or loss thereof, but about bearing fruit.

ryanoneil:

John 10:28 doesn’t say we can’t leave His hands. If we choose to walk away from Him, are we still His sheep?

Prior to any talk about one being taken from the Father’s hand is the statement that Jesus’ sheep ”will never perish,” and that is because He ”gives them eternal life.”

There is a reason that you won’t see assurance in those statements, and it’s not because the statements are vague.

Furthermore, the whole statement is comprehensive—no one means just that; not even the believer is able to remove Himself from the hands of the Father and the Son (cf Rom 8:35-39). That is because, v30, the Father and the Son are one in essence, unity, and therefore, purpose, and in vv28, 29, the purpose stated is the safety afforded the believer by God, which Peter states as well:**1 Peter 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.**There are many other substantiating verses; however, that the Father affords the believer His protection is clearly stated, and not in the least vague.

ryanoneil:

John 6:39 says Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

Does this verse square with your understanding of John 6 and 10?

Judas was not elect by the Father for salvation, but was chosen by the Son for service.

In the NT, election to salvation is uniformly ascribed to the Father, while the electing work of the Son is to service.

Jn 6:70 illustrates this:**John 6:70

Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”**Jesus chose the 12 as apostles, and one of those He chose knowing that one “is a devil.”

(Jesus chose that devil, Judas, in order that the scripture would be fulfilled).

Within that group of 12, are those chosen by the Father for salvation, and given to the Son for safekeeping:**John 17:6

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.**Those given by the Father to Christ for salvation have “kept the Father’s word.”

**Will you please explain how Judas kept the Father’s word?John 17:12

“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished BUT the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.**”BUT” (Gk ei mā), is an adversative conjunction; it separates Judas into another class from the class in which "not one perished."

IOW, Judas never belonged to the group that did not perish—they were sons by adoption—but Judas was THE son of Perdition, and he was that, SO THAT, the scripture would be fulfilled.

Here are a few more verses with adversative conjunctions:**Matthew 12:4

how he [King David] entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, BUT for the priests alone?

**(David was not in the class of priests)

**Acts 27:22

“Yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, for there will be no loss of life among you, BUT only of the ship.

**(The ship is not in the class that will not be lost)

**Revelation 21:27

and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, BUT only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

**(Those whose names are written in the Lambs book of Life are not among the class of unclean, abominable liars who will never enter the kingdom)If you still doubt what I’m saying, this should remove that doubt:**John 18:6-9

So when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Therefore He again asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus the Nazarene.”

Jesus answered, “I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,”

to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”**
John is referring to 17:12.

Of those given by the Father to the Son FOR SALVATION, "NOT ONE WAS LOST."

Judas was not elect to salvation.

 

[moondweller]

Of course I brushed off this idea of positional sanctification versus practical sanctification. It is ridiculous and it is anything but divinely revealed. Not a word of scripture speaks of sanctification in this fashion, and none of the verses that you have used to establish this idea say anything about it. The best thing you can do is abandoned this idea which is not found in scripture. This is simply a protestant invention.

Your last statement is borne out of pure prejudice. Biblical support for the believer’s, once for all, positional sanctification in the risen Christ has been amply shown to you. In fact, you have been shown that this glorious doctrine is keynote in Pauline theology. The believer’s new and irreversible identity in the risen Christ is an essential Christian doctrine. To deny it is to deny the gospel itself. This being that not only did Christ die for our sins, but that we (believers) died with Christ (i.e., all who we were in Adam) and are raised with Him to new life, and now presently seated with Him in the heavenly:Col 3:1-3 “Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory” (cf. Eph. 2:4-7):Can’t get more “positionally sanctified” than that, Pax. In fact, Paul calls for the believer’s practical or experiential sanctification only after he has first understood his positional sanctification in the risen Christ. Shown by the word, “Therefore” in Col. 3:4.

What you refuse to believe, Pax, is:Eph 1:19-20 “…what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly;” No, Pax, the believer’s postional sanctification is as divinely revealed as salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone:Heb 2:11 “For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one {Father;} for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,”

Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified (how? Works? No!) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected (for how long?) for all time those who are sanctified."And for this reason Paul addresses the believers as: "those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:1 Cor 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified (by works? No!) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."All this, Pax, “He brought about in Christ when He raised Him from the dead.” It’s “His power toward us who believe.” The key word there is “believe.”

 

[moondweller]

Wrong again…I have not brushed anything off. The fact is that you do not even understand what you just quoted. This verse, once again, is a passage that utterly destroys you concept of imputed righteousness.

John says something very important here. He points out “…that we would be called children of God.” Now think about this in light of Isaiah 55:11 which says, “…so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.”

This is referring to His prophetic word.

God’s word goes out in power. So when God said “let there be light there was light.”

This is His creative word.

Likewise, when John says that because of God “we would be called children of God” then we actually become his children.

He did not say, “Let there be children of God,” and the earth sprouted them up. But instead it is revealed:Gal 3:26 “For you are all sons of God (How? Through God speaking it forth? NO!) through faith in Christ Jesus.”

 

[moondweller]

You are correct in your assessment of habitual sin, but your statements and quotes merely reinforce “infused righteousness” versus imputed.

John says nothing about “righteousness.” But could you show me where any of the writers of the N.T. teach about this “infused righteousness?” Please be specific.

You’ve got some real problems here. You admit that John is giving a warning and that the believers need protection. This warning and the need for protection is for the purpose of their salvation. If this is not the case then there is no need for the warning.

Twisted logic, indeed. John says nothing about losing their salvation. To the contrary, he points out that the testimony of God is the they HAVE eternal life.

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Verses those who don’t know Him. That’s the whole point of his Epistle, Pax. Identifying those who are not his (the Gnostics). It has nothing to do with losing salvation but identifying false brethren.

 

[Good_Fella]

I stated in an earlier post to you, perhaps you missed it, that:God’s foreknowledge is His knowledge of all actual things before they exist. His foreknowledge is made certain, not by foresight, but by divine decree by which He determined all existing things. His foreknowledge is equated with His counsel (plan or decree).Therefore, I can say with certainty that God decreed the FallIsaiah 46:9-10

“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;God, as creator, has declared what will come to pass.Matthew 26:24

“The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!..”

Luke 22:22

“For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”God is absolutely sovereign in what will come to pass, and man is absolutely responsible for his own actions.

Ps 115:3 states, ”…our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” Therefore, one must conclude that the Fall of Adam, and its casting into sin of the human race, is, at the very least, pleasing to God.

John also records the prayer of the Lord in his Gospel, chapter 17, and quotes Jesus saying:John 17:9

9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.If Jesus is the savior of the entire world, how is it that He doesn’t pray for the Father’s care of the world, but only for those given to Him by the Father, both at that time, and in the future?

There is worldly hope: I hope so, and there is biblical hope: a confident expectation in God with the nuance of counting upon. If my hope is in anything other than God, such as my works, my sacraments, my ritual, my observing feasts days, then it’s assuredly a “hope so” hope.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the CC teaches OSAS with respect to those elect to eternal blessedness.

If you have no problem with the CC teaching OSAS, why do have a problem with Calvin teaching it? That’s inconsistent.

Ah yes—one must deserve to be saved. (Works/righteousness is revealed in the heart again, IMO).Romans 5:6

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.How is it that ungodly deserve to be saved??

And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Man’s original fall from grace and God’s friendship and his consequent loss of the state of holiness and justice was not intended but permitted by God - a big difference. If it were not the case, there would be no such thing as a conditional prophecy in contrast with an unconditional prophecy. Human beings may freely determine their own eternal destiny by a genuine change of heart in response to God’s grace without the compromise of God’s eternally constant knowledge.

A conditional prophecy is one in which a prediction is predicated upon something conditional: human response. We find a good example of a conditional prophecy in 2 Chronicles 7, 14: “If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.” An unconditional prophecy is one in which no condition is predicated. The appearance of the two beasts envisioned by John in Revelation 13 and the Second Coming of Christ as foretold by Jesus in Matthew 24 will inevitably occur in future history. Nothing we do can prevent these events from happening or alter them in some significant way.

Holy Scripture tells us that when a prophet makes a prediction which fails to come to pass, that prophet is not speaking in the name of the Lord (Deut 18, 22). It is not an instance of God changing his mind. If it were so, we could never distinguish between a true prophet and a false one. God is omniscient: all knowing. He exists in the past, present, and future all at once relative to us and creation. Thus he cannot know and not know something at the same time. Indeed, God would not be God if there were something He did not know. God already knows the future, so it cannot be changed by anything we may do. He knows the exact day and hour the two beasts will historically make their appearance and when Christ will return to judge us at the end of time. Likewise, God knows when his people will experience a change of heart and return to him by their own free will. :yup:

I absolutely agree with you that God cannot change his mind. We both concur with St. Thomas Aquinas. It does appear that God had changed his mind or willed otherwise when he apparently relented from destroying the Israelites, because of their disobedience and wickedness, after Moses had mediated on their behalf; or when He told Jonah that He would destroy Nineveh, but then spared the city. According to Hebrews 6, 18, it is impossible for God to mean one thing and then do another. He cannot tell us something and then change his mind, He cannot will something and then will otherwise. For God knows everything and is not surprised by anything we may do. There is no situation in which God can suddenly learn something true that he was unaware of in the past and has now caused him to change his mind. God’s discussion with Moses in Exodus 32 suggests at first glance that a human apppeal shed light on something God hadn’t thought of before - but it only seems this way.

God lives in the past, present, and future all at once. He is not restricted by the flow of events in our lives. If we get sick like Hezekiah and the doctor (prophet) tells us that we are going to die, and we pray to God and then get miraculously cured, it does not mean that God had changed his mind about our state of health. Our restoration to good health simply means that God had heard our prayer as he always knew - and in this case intended - he would. We must not confuse foreknowledge with intention. If I asked God to strike me dead, I doubt he would answer my prayer, not because he foresaw that he wouldn’t strike me dead but because God has no intention of striking anyone dead. God foresaw the fall of Man but it was not his intention. He ‘let’ something happen, as in Hezekiah’s case, so that something even better would transpire to His glory: our immersion in Christ, which is open to each and every human being who initially responds to God’s grace in faith.

The expression “to change one’s mind” found in Numbers 23, 19 is translated from the Hebrew word ‘nacham’ which means to turn or change direction. But this change of direction applies only to our physical or spiritual change of health as it does to the ailing Hezekiah and the wicked Israelites. Calvin was mistaken that the wicked or spiritually sick were damned from the beginning. God hears our prayers and answers them in spite of our wickedness or spiritual malady: “Have mercy on me God in your kindness. In your compassion blot out my offense. ( No change of mind on God’s part.) O wash me more and more from my guilt and cleanse me from my sin” (Psalm 51}. Your inmost being must be renewed, and YOU MUST PUT ON THE NEW MAN (Eph 4, 23-24). We are not saved by faith alone, grace alone, or Christ alone. God awaits our initial response and full co-operation! There is hope for the wicked. I’m surprised Calvin didn’t dispense with prayer when he rejected the Sacraments and the liturgical rites of the Church. Anyway, this change of direction does not compromise the will of God. He did not tell Hezekiah that he will die and then change his mind. Hezekiah was already on his death bed when Isaiah arrived with the grim news. What Isaiah meant to tell him was “get your house in order”. The prophet exhorted the ailing Hezekiah to pray and be reconciled with God before he dies. And so he prayed and God made good and rewarded him with an extra fifteen years of life for being faithful. He was deemed righteous for freely acting in faith. Hezekiah’s life changed direction and God had not changed his mind about anything, since He never told Hezekiah that he was certainly going to die in the first place. “This is good and pleasing to God our saviour, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth” ( 1 Tim 2, 3-4).

What God declares is for his good and just purpose. And since we have been created by Him, and in the Divine image, God would never deal with us unjustly, for then He would be untrue to Himself. God’s declaration in Isaiah 46 is His making known to us (NAB) what He already knows and has allowed to happen. But not everything that has happened is to His liking: For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, says the Lord God. Return and live!
( Ezekiel 18, 32)

Determinism and free will cannot be reconciled with each other. Luke means what ‘has been foreseen and permitted’ by the will of God. He allows us to be tempted, but He is not the author of temptation. And God provides sufficient grace to enable us to overcome tempatation if we are willing. (1 Cor 10, 13). Judas was at liberty to choose as he pleased or else he couldn’t have actually betrayed Jesus. God would have been the author of the betrayal and thus the betrayer.

In John 17, Jesus is specifically praying for his close apostles and for a special reason - the foundation of His Church. It simply wasn’t the moment to pray for anyone else but the apostles.

The Catholic Church differs with Calvinism on the matter of “Once saved always saved.” Our salvation isn’t merely assured by presently persevering. It is assured by having persevered to the end. And Catholics believe that once our salvation is assured in the next life, it will be eternal.

The ungodly deserve to be saved by ‘becoming’ godly. If they didn’t deserve to be saved, Christ wouldn’t have died for them let alone come to call sinners instead of the righteous. If the wicked have been predetermined to be damned, then why would Christ even bother to come to call sinners? There is more human merit and value than you believe.

“For he who keeps these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooses other things shall be destroyed with his works.”
Epistle to Barnabas (A.D. 132)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[ryanoneil]

IOW, Judas never belonged to the group that did not perish—they were sons by adoption—but Judas was THE son of Perdition, and he was that, SO THAT, the scripture would be fulfilled.

to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”

[/indent]
John is referring to 17:12.

Of those given by the Father to the Son FOR SALVATION, "NOT ONE WAS LOST."

Judas was not elect to salvation.

If you don’t believe Jn 15:6 deals with losing salvation, then I don’t know what else I can say. This verse describes a group who are predestined to grace (became Christian) but not automatically predestined to glory (becoming Christian and persevering to the end)

If you don’t believe that God respects our free will (letting us fall away) then I don’t know what to say.

I never said Judas was elect to glory. He was elect to grace, and that doesn’t automatically lead to glory. Here is another example of a group predestined to grace not automatically to glory. (accept it or not)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen sojourners of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ: may grace and peace be yours in abundance. (1 Pet 1-2)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[moondweller]

We may be having a semantics problem. The faith that Paul writes about is an obedient faith. It is a faith that works. Such a faith does result in righteousness when mixed with grace.

No, not semantics, doctrinal:Gen 15:6 "Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He (the Lord) reckoned it (his belief, his faith in what He said) to him as righteousness.When one believes what God has said (the definition of faith) God reckons “it” (his belief in His Word) to him as righteousness (cf. Rom. 4:4-5; Eph. 2:8-9).

Salvation is unmerited, undeserved, and gifted, but salvation is not something that happens at one point in time, for all time.

Then by definition it is neither gifted, unmerited or undeserved. The last two, btw, define “grace,” as in “For by grace (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) you have been saved through faith…the gift of God; not as a result of works…”

Salvation that is based on faith, a faith that works, produces fruit. the two are not separate from each other.

But it’s not through the the works that God saves, but “through FAITH:” Eph. 2:8-9. The “good works” in verse ten are prepared for those who are “created in Christ Jesus” (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17), those in verses 8 and 9 who “have been saved by grace through faith…” not as a result of works.Acts 16:30-31 "…and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness (IOW, what you would call, “sacred works,” since such works could not be considered “works of the flesh”), but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”

 

[moondweller]

Then we are in agreement on that point. I think where we might disagree is that Apostolic teaching is that we must cooperate with being clothed. God does not just dress us while we are passive, like some valet. One of these actions is baptism, which the believer chooses.

" For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. " Gal 3:27-28

This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13). No “cradle Catholic” ever chose to be water baptized.

As for the parable, guanophore, it was customary for the host of the wedding to provide the wedding garments for the guests. And being a King he could well afford it. The issue in the parable is not who put them on them, but who refused to wear them. The man wilfully refused to wear what was graciously provided for him. Now take this same analogy and apply it to faith/grace vs. works. Those who refuse to wear what is graciously provided for them (Rom. 9:30-33;Phil. 3:9) will also be escorted out and barred from the kingdom. Remember, the parable begins with: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to…”

 

[sandusky]

ryanoneil:

If you don’t believe Jn 15:6 deals with losing salvation, then I don’t know what else I can say.

And if you believe that it deals with salvation, what else can I say?

ryanoneil:

This verse describes a group who are predestined to grace (became Christian) but not automatically predestined to glory (becoming Christian and persevering to the end)

No one has proven that such a group exists. Scripture knows of two groups only, those prepared for destruction, and those prepared beforehand for glory:**Romans 9:21-23

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory…**Two groups only, not three: prepared for destruction, prepared for glory; no group is described as having been prepared for grace and left to their own devices.

ryanoneil:

If you don’t believe that God respects our free will (letting us fall away) then I don’t know what to say.

As part of the New Covenant, the believer will not leave because God has built a safeguard into the believer, so that the believer will NOT.**Jeremiah 32:40

“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; AND I will put the fear of Me in their hearts
SO THAT they will not turn away from Me.” **The believer will not leave (cf Rom 8:35-39).

ryanoneil:

I never said Judas was elect to glory. He was elect to grace, and that doesn’t automatically lead to glory. Here is another example of a group predestined to grace not automatically to glory.

No. :nope:

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Faith Alone does not save:

Romans 13
11 And that knowing the season; that it is now the hour for us to rise from sleep. For now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

Read’em and weep

If salvation was already his, in the ultimate sense (an absolute assurance of salvation), this statment makes no sense. Sorry Protestants. Trust me, I’d be the first person to preach “OSAS” if it was in the Holy Bible, in Sacred Tradition, or taught by the Church.

 

[sandusky]

Faith Alone does not save:

Romans 13
11 And that knowing the season; that it is now the hour for us to rise from sleep. For now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

Read’em and weep

If salvation was already his, in the ultimate sense (an absolute assurance of salvation), this statment makes no sense. Sorry Protestants. Trust me, I’d be the first person to preach “OSAS” if it was in the Holy Bible, in Sacred Tradition, or taught by the Church.

Salvation, from eternity, has been by grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone; however, thanks for your opinion.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

through faith alone

yeah yeah yeah, you can’t support your faith alone from the bible though. So stop preaching it!

 

[banjo]

Two points.
First: “If I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” (1 Cor 13:2). St. Paul doesn’t preach faith only or faith alone, but faith and love or charity.
Second: God does not predestine anyone to hell nor does He predestine anyone to sin as a means of damnation.

 

[ryanoneil]

And if you believe that it deals with salvation, what else can I say?

Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned. (John 15:6)

If withering away from Christ does not result in Damnation that what does this verse mean?

How about this one? How has this group tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit AND fallen away?

For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. Ground that has absorbed the rain falling upon it repeatedly and brings forth crops useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected; it will soon be cursed and finally burned. (Heb 6:4-8)

It sure sounds like a third group that recieved grace but not glory to me.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

As part of the New Covenant, the believer will not leave because God has built a safeguard into the believer, so that the believer will NOT.Jeremiah 32:40

“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; AND I will put the fear of Me in their hearts
SO THAT they will not turn away from Me.” The believer will not leave (cf Rom 8:35-39).

How does that square with this verses.

Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. (Luke 8:13)

That is another example of the third group.

Rom 8? People have a free will and can choose to seperate themselves.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[guanophore]

Those in Jn 5 are believers, and the passage is not about salvation, or loss thereof, but about bearing fruit.

It amazes me how OSAS adherants seem to think that Jesus has nothing much to say about salvation.

How do you imagine that anyone can have eternal life who does not remain in Christ, or is cut off from Christ? How can a person fail to “remain” if they were not attached to the vine in the first place?

Prior to any talk about one being taken from the Father’s hand is the statement that Jesus’ sheep ***”will never perish,***” and that is because He ***”gives them eternal life.”***

There is a reason that you won’t see assurance in those statements, and it’s not because the statements are vague.

Personally, I find quite a bit of assurance in them. I find the other statements equally assuring, however. It is possible to be cut off, and thrown into the fire.

 Furthermore, the whole statement is comprehensive—no one means just that; not even the believer is able to remove Himself from the hands of the Father and the Son (cf Rom 8:35-39).

God has given all of us the power to remove ourselves from His presence. This is the nature of free will, and being made in the image and likeness of God. Just as God did not spare the angels who rebelled against Him, He will also allow humans to spurn His grace.

 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[/indent]

The inheritance is imperishable, the people are not. In fact, Jesus told the disciples, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

The salvation is “not yet” but ready to be revealed in the last time. If we wish to be part of that revelation, then we must stay attached to the Vine. Eternal life exists, and will always exist. Whether or not we are part of it is up to us.

 There are many other substantiating verses; however, that the Father affords the believer His protection is clearly stated, and not in the least vague.

I agree. He was not vague, either, about what will cause us to be thrown into the outer darkenss.

Revelation 21:27

and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, BUT only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

(Those whose names are written in the Lambs book of Life are not among the class of unclean, abominable liars who will never enter the kingdom)[/indent]

I agree. Even if they are born again Christians, they will not enter life. But, I am still waiting for you to explain how the Books of life are different.