Faith Alone

[guanophore]

We are simple and forgiven for past, present, and future failings (Col 2:14), therefore, salvation is not about perfection; it is about mercy, grace, believing, bearing fruit, persevering in Christ; and, all that, as you say, “empowered by God’s grace at every step.”

“…having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross” Col 2:14

This verse is not about being forgiven for past, present, and future sins. It is about being set free from the Levitical law and it’s sacred ordinances.

Salvation is, indeed, about perfection. God’s intention for us in salvation is to perfect us so that we reflect His glory just as He intended when He created man.

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:47-6:1

“And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” James 1:3-4

I am in agreement, however, about all the other things you equate with salvation.

 

[Philthy]

Then Jn 6:53ff doesn’t apply you to either because you didn’t hear Him say it.
Of course you could, but your use of the term “free will” would come to mean something no one would regard as “free”! Perhaps, then, you might wish to take the opportunity to explain what you mean by “men act ACCORDING TO THE DESIRES OF THEIR HEART which direct their will” Either they are in at least PARTIAL control of those desires or they are not. What you have done with your “men are not robots” claim is to say that men are at least PARTIALLY in control of the desires of their hearts. If so, their must be something God intends for that partial control…

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

Indeed. Yet we know that the will of the Father that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth is not fulfilled:

“…the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves…” Luke 7:30

Those who reject are not among the elect.

"…if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live…" Rom 8:13

You left out v14**Romans 8:14

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.**

Not at all! Jesus will keep all those who hear His voice, and follow Him. Those that decide to reject His purpose for themselves, he will allow to walk away, just as He allowed the disciples to walk away in Jn. 6

Those who walk away from Christ do so because they haven’t been given to Christ by the Father, and the Father has not given them the ability to believe.**John 6:64-65

“But there are some of you who do not believe….” “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”**

guanophore:

It is amazing that one can read these words, and still think that a person severed from Christ can be saved.

Why? You think that a person severed from Christ can be saved if he repents and confesses his sin to a priest; don’t you?

guanophore:

Personally, however, I think it is not useful to focus on “loss” of salvation so much as it is a failure to attain it.

I agree—those who appear to have lost salvation never had in the first place.

guanophore:

Apostolic teaching does not present salvation as one event that happens at one time, for all time. On the contrary, the Apostles indicate that we should wait for it with patience, and that a mature attitude is one which does not consider that we have already attained.

“And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.” Heb 6:11-12

Yes, perseverance through faith by which the Father protects the believer from failure (1 Pet 1:5).

guanophore:

God desires that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. He calls all. Yet, not all are saved, are they?

All are not called in the same way. There are those who are called, in the general proclamation of the gospel, and there are those who are THE called (1 Cor 1:24).

Those in the call of the general proclamation of the gospel view the cross of Christ as foolishness, while those who are the THE called view the cross of Christ as the power of God to salvation (1 Cor 1:18, 24).

guanophore:

This is certainly a valid calvanist view. But we can see from the scriptures that Peter knew he had cut himself off from Christ. He went back to fishing, becuase he knew he was no longer worthy to be a fisher of men.

You’re funny; you spread error so easily, and thoughtlessly, IMO.

Self-condemnation is not always correct:**1 John 3:19-20

We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him

in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.**Peter’s heart may have condemned him, but the Lord did not.

guanophore:

Jesus will save those that choose to remain in HIm. He allows those that choose not to remain to leave.

Believe it, or refuse to believe it, Jesus will save all of those given to Him by the Father.
gaunophore:

Do you believe there is such a thing as weak or struggling faith? Do you consider that such faith can save?

Yes; Peter illustrates that truth quite well.

 

[sandusky]

"…having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" Col 2:14

This verse is not about being forgiven for past, present, and future sins. It is about being set free from the Levitical law and it’s sacred ordinances.

Sorry, I left out v13:**Colossians 2:13

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us
all our transgressions**Past, present, future.

guanophore:

Salvation is, indeed, about perfection. God’s intention for us in salvation is to perfect us so that we reflect His glory just as He intended when He created man.

Glorification is about perfection.

Salvation is about mercy, grace, misery, trials, failure, heartache, heartbreak, losses, gains, victories, perseverance, and the ever-present help and protection from God for those whom He has foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified—the certainty of salvation.

 

[moondweller]

I guess I cannot see any difference between the definition you are giving here for faith, and this one:

James 2:19
Even the demons believe - and shudder.

The demons recognized Christ, and believed what he said…

Your limited, even distorted, understanding of belief in respect to man’s salvation is why you insist on adding works to salvation, even though (according to Scripture) it’s unequivocally contrary to the gospel message.

James doesn’t say that demons believe the gospel message (a message never preached to them since it can not at apply to them), but only that they, like the Jews James was writing, believe that God is one. IOW, they too are monotheists, a fundamental creed of the Jews. In fact, that belief causes them to shutter in view of their pending judgment (Matt. 8:29). But such a limited belief arises no higher than demons.

I don’t see how any of these things has to happen once in time, for all time. In fact, they seem to me to happen daily. How is an experience of grace through faith that happens daily any less gifted, unmerited, or undeserved?

Because the grace by which one is “saved” is through one’s faith in a one time, once for all, historical event. And Paul says to the Ephesians, “For by grace you have been saved through faith…the gift of God; not as a result of works.” And to Titus he writes “He saved us (a completed act), not on the basis of works which we have done in righteousness…” (Titus 3:5). Scripture does not present salvation to be a daily process. You should know this being a “Roman” catholic, since the Apostle Paul wrote directly to the church at Rome saying:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 "{He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand…;The believer doesn’t daily access grace in order to be saved on a daily basis, but at the time of faith in Christ he accessed that grace by which God saved and justified him, once for all. And in that grace he now “stands” (is established, sustained).

Indeed! And then, what did the obedience of faith lead them to do immediately?

What was done after they believed did not save them: “…having believed in God with all his household” Through faith they accessed that grace by which God saved and justified them…“not as a result of works.”

I am glad that you are at least willing to distinguish between works done in righteousness, and works of the flesh!

I don’t. “Deeds which we have done in righteousness” I said are what YOU would call “sacred works.” But I pointed out that Scriptures clearly states that one is not saved even by those works.

Righteous works are not the “basis”, but the result of saving faith."

I have no problem with saving faith resulting in good works. But they are works done by those who “have been” saved by grace through faith and are now "created in Christ Jesus FOR them.

That is why I suggested that we may only be having a semantics problem.

No. It’s a matter of you putting the cart before the horse. One is not “created in Christ Jesus for good works” until he is first saved by grace through faith…“not as a result of works.” One is not daily “being” saved by good works (Scripture does not call them “sacred” works), nor is he daily “being” created in Christ Jesus for good works. Explicitly it is stated that the believer “has been” saved by grace through faith and is now created (a new creation, a completed act, 2 Cor. 5:17) in Christ Jesus for good works.

The basis of works done in righteousness is grace, through faith. Anything that is based elsewhere is a work of the flesh.

The basis of salvation is “by grace through faith… not as a result of works.” The basis of “good works” is having been created in Christ Jesus for them.

 

[moondweller]

Hi Moondweller -

Not looking for a long explanation from you, but your contention that the purpose of the epistle is in “identifying false brethren” seems to simply beg the question. What, exactly, is the purpose of identifying false brethren? Why waste even a page of Scripture on it? Do they in any way threaten the Gospel? Do they in any way threaten the salvation of anyone? Can they lead any of God’s children astray?
I mean if the saved are predestined in the manner you have suggested, then such warnings seem to distort the message that salvation can not be lost, no?

John says nothing about losing one’s salvation in his Epistles, nor did I say anything about predestination in my posts.

 

[moondweller]

I have already discussed this at length in a response to Sandusky. Please read my prior post #485.

Your claim about John not discussing “righteousness” is incorrect. The following should help:

1 John 1:9
** If **we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Obviously, we are righteous when we are cleansed from all unrighteousness when we are forgiven upon the confession of our sins.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous.

1 John 3:11-12
For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, and not be like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous.

Not in a doctrinal manner. If you want that you must go to Paul’s Epistles where he doctrinally covers justification and righteousness according to faith alone.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Another time trying to get Calvinists to answer the following question:

Can man cooperate with a God willed work?

 

[Pax]

Not in a doctrinal manner. If you want that you must go to Paul’s Epistles where he doctrinally covers justification and righteousness according to faith alone.

You made a claim about John which I disproved, and now you are attempting to relegate everything in the gospels and all of the NT letters except Paul’s to the “file of unimportance” when it comes to doctrine.

This is a huge error on your part. Nothing, and I mean “nothing,” trumps the words of Jesus. No errant interpretation of Paul trumps the words of Jesus.

Likewise, you should be a whole lot more cautious about your statements concerning Paul because of the following:

Paul himself contends that there are those that twist his preaching. Paul even says this:

Romans 3:7-8
But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?–as **some people slanderously charge us with saying. **Their condemnation is just.

The apostle recognizes that people to whom he has preached misunderstand what he says. Likewise, the letters of James and Peter are very instructive for us, and they are placed sequentially in the bible following Paul’s letter for a reason. James letter is a clear clarification and refutation to those that misunderstand Paul’s teaching that believe him to say that works are not necessary. Likewise, Peter makes it abundantly clear that people misunderstand Paul’s teachings.

In 2 Peter 3:14-17 we read the following:

"Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, seaking of this as he does in all his letters. **There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. ** You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.

Here is what Peter is telling us:

1. Do not sin, be found by Christ without spot or blemish and at peace. Sounds like works.
2. The above is mentioned in connection with salvation.
3. Peter says Paul talks about these things as well. And don’t forget that James, John, and Peter gave Paul the right hand of fellowship after Paul came to Jerusalem to speak with them to make sure that he was not running in vain by way of his teaching.[See Gal 2:1-9]. None of them is teaching a different gospel; they are all teaching the gospel of Jesus.
4. Some of the things Paul says are hard to understand. Apparently, from the quote above those things have to do with works and salvation. Likewise, Paul himself admits that people slander his teaching about grace and sin which clearly relate to salvation.
5. Not only are some of Paul’s letters hard to understand, but the ignorant and unstable twist what Paul says along with the rest of scripture to their own destruction.
6. Peter then warns “believers” not to be carried away by the misunderstandings of those that twist Paul’s teachings to their own destruction. This warning is given so that “believers” will not likewise lose their own stability. “Stability” in this context refers to their salvation and standing in Christ.

It is very important to look at scripture as a whole. If one only focuses on certain verses from Paul’s letters, and not the context of his letters and the rest of the bible, one will easily be confused.

 

[Philthy]

John says nothing about losing one’s salvation in his Epistles, nor did I say anything about predestination in my posts.

Oops, Sorry - I must have confused you with Sandusky.
If you dont you mind answering I would still appreciate your answer to the original, bolded question.

…your contention that the purpose of the epistle is in “identifying false brethren” seems to simply beg the question. What, exactly, is the purpose of identifying false brethren?

Why waste even a page of Scripture on it? Do they in any way threaten the Gospel? Do they in any way threaten the salvation of anyone? Can they lead any of God’s children astray?

 

[Pax]

John says nothing about losing one’s salvation in his Epistles,…

Of course he didn’t…all that talk about eternal life, confessing our sins, sin unto death/mortal sin, and abiding/remaining in Christ is just a bunch of fluff having nothing to do with salvation.

Please…give it a rest.

 

[Pax]

Not in a doctrinal manner. If you want that you must go to Paul’s Epistles where he doctrinally covers justification and righteousness according to faith alone.

Paul never says that “we are saved by faith alone,” but James clearly says that “we are not saved by faith alone.”

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Paul never says that “we are saved by faith alone,” but James clearly says that “we are not saved by faith alone.”

[sign]Furthermore, it says we are saved by Hope as well, hence, the entire “faith alone” heresy is easily dismantled[/sign]

By being “saved” [in the protestant sense] we would have nothing to hope for anymore because we KNOW that Heaven is ours. This is wrong and unbiblical because our salvation is founded upon the hope of something says Paul: “For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? “[Romans 8:24].

 

[Gamera]

[sign]Furthermore, it says we are saved by Hope as well, hence, the entire “faith alone” heresy is easily dismantled[/sign]

By being “saved” [in the protestant sense] we would have nothing to hope for anymore because we KNOW that Heaven is ours. This is wrong and unbiblical because our salvation is founded upon the hope of something says Paul: “**For in hope **we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? “[Romans 8:24].

Funny how the “Romans Road” leads straight to the Catholic Church, when one actually reads the whole epistle.

 

[ryanoneil]

You continue to assert a group of people “predestined to grace but not glory” while offering no proof for them.

I’ve shown that scripture knows two groups—those elect to glory, and those not elect to glory.

This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Pet 3:21)

Please explain. Water baptism saves us. What group do baptized people belong to?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[sandusky]

This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Pet 3:21)

Please explain. Water baptism saves us. What group do baptized people belong to?

Peace,

Ryan

Short answer: baptizo means “immersion.”

Contextually, this baptizo of which Peter speaks is baptism into Christ; Peter is not referring to water baptism.

Peter makes that clear when he says, “it is not the removal of dirt from the body…”

Water baptism would certainly remove dirt from the body; therefore, water baptism is not what’s being presented.

Baptism saves as well as circumcision saves—not at all.**Mark 16:16

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.**We see from the above verse that salvation is predicated upon belief, and not water baptism.

The disbelieving one may well be baptized; however, his baptism cannot save him from the condemnation of his unbelief.

You’re emotionally affected by the phrase “baptism now saves you,” and, IMHO, that blinds you to the truth that baptism, indeed, cannot save anyone.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Contextually, this baptizo of which Peter speaks is baptism into Christ; Peter is not referring to water baptism.

Peter makes that clear when he says, “it is not the removal of dirt from the body…”

Water baptism would certainly remove dirt from the body; therefore, water baptism is not what’s being presented.

Baptism saves as well as circumcision saves—not at all.Mark 16:16

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Wow, nice spin! How much more can you bend the text to fit your theology? WOW! None, and NONE of the ECFs will agree with you. You are alone pre-16th century.

 

[moondweller]

Short answer: baptizo means “immersion.”

Contextually, this baptizo of which Peter speaks is baptism into Christ; Peter is not referring to water baptism.

Peter makes that clear when he says, “it is not the removal of dirt from the body…”

Water baptism would certainly remove dirt from the body; therefore, water baptism is not what’s being presented.

Baptism saves as well as circumcision saves—not at all.Mark 16:16

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.We see from the above verse that salvation is predicated upon belief, and not water baptism.

The disbelieving one may well be baptized; however, his baptism cannot save him from the condemnation of his unbelief.

You’re emotionally affected by the phrase “baptism now saves you,” and, IMHO, that blinds you to the truth that baptism, indeed, cannot save anyone.

Christ Himself concurs:John 3:17-18 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved (how?) through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, (why?) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Many believe in their baptism for salvation, rather than Christ.

 

[Gamera]

Many believe in their baptism for salvation, rather than Christ.

This is a false dichotomy. Many people such as Catholics believe that baptism is a method through which Christ gives people grace, but there isn’t a single religious group that I’ve ever heard of who believe baptism has any independent power that doesn’t come from Christ. So no, nobody believes in baptism “rather than” Christ.

 

[Gamera]

Short answer: baptizo means “immersion.”

Contextually, this baptizo of which Peter speaks is baptism into Christ; Peter is not referring to water baptism.

Peter makes that clear when he says, “it is not the removal of dirt from the body…”

Water baptism would certainly remove dirt from the body; therefore, water baptism is not what’s being presented.

Baptism saves as well as circumcision saves—not at all.Mark 16:16

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.We see from the above verse that salvation is predicated upon belief, and not water baptism.

The disbelieving one may well be baptized; however, his baptism cannot save him from the condemnation of his unbelief.

You’re emotionally affected by the phrase “baptism now saves you,” and, IMHO, that blinds you to the truth that baptism, indeed, cannot save anyone.

So when the Bible says “baptism,” it doesn’t mean baptism? So much for sola scriptura.