Faith Alone

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Fiath alone is listed here.
John3:15,16, 17-18; John 3:36; John 5:24; Jn 6:47; Jn 20:30-31; Eph 2:8-9; 2 Tim 3:15; Romans 5:1. The Bible says, in these verse, that we are saved by faith in Christ. No other requirement is mentioned for salvation other than faith in Christ. That is why we say we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. Please remember we that we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, but that saving faith is never alone. True saving faith works, Eph 2:8-10.Read vers 10 to see why god saved us.
 
Maybe Pax is right, and you totally missed the point of the whole parable. Jesus did not mislead the lawyer, just because the lawyer was trying to mislead Him. Salvation is, indeed, found in the keeping of the commandments. This is because love is the fulfillment of the law. Jesus is love, and Jesus is the fulfilment of the law. If we have died with Him in a death like His, then we will live with Him in a life like His. If we are “in Christ” we will be poured out as a love offering for others. Such a life brings salvation not only to ourselves, but to others. Jesus never askes us to do something that it is not possible to do.

The whole parable of the good samaritan is about perfect love.
Or, perhaps both you and Pax fail to understand the reason behind the parable.
Jesus did not mislead the lawyer, just because the lawyer was trying to mislead Him.
I never said, nor even implied, that Jesus misled the lawyer. The lawyer, by putting Jesus to the test, approached Him with an attitude of insincerity and superiority. Jesus was, in fact, trying to save him from his own self-deception.

He would probably do the same with someone who, this side of the cross, after hearing the gospel of the grace of God, would ask Him what works he must still do to be saved, what more he must do to secure his justification. What this one and the lawyer would have in common is unbelief.
 
This is a straw man because it is putting the emphasis on the term rather than the concept appearing.
Fact 1: The Bible undeniably talks about an inner transformation at the moment of salvation.
Yes. This is regeneration. Spiritual rebirth. The believer is made alive to the things of God.
Fact 2: The Bible mentions nothing of an external righteous status being given to the Christian (who is unrighteous at the moment of justification).
Rom 4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (his faith) was credited (reckoned) to him as righteousness.” It was reckoned “to him” as righteousness, not “infused in him.”

Regeneration and justification are two different divine acts.

The believer is “made righteous” not by “infusion” (a concept not found anywhere in Scripture), but by divine creation. That being, positionally, “a new creature in Christ” (Eph. 2:10; 2 Cor. 5:17). In this respect he (the believer) is as righteous as Christ; his righteousness being not his own, but Christ’s, his new federal Head2 Cor 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him…"This being irreversible. God has laid our sins on Christ (imputation) that He might lay the righteousness that is Christ’s upon us (imputation).
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Pax:
Christians are indeed made righteous when they are brought into a state of justification. The sins they have committed are forgiven.
Justification is not the forgiveness of sins. Look at it like Divine Bookkeeping:On the divine Ledger our sin is entered on the debit side. At the cross God transferred all of our indebtedness to His Son (imputation of our sins to Christ), leaving the debit side of the ledger absolutely clean.

But God doesn’t stop there. As a GIFT, God transferred the Divine Righteousness of His Son to the believer’s right hand, or “credit” column. IOW, the believer’s account is not simply “zeroed out” (i.e., the forgiveness of ALL sins), but is found with (imputed) a positive balance of the very righteousness of Christ Himself.This is Divine Justification. The only righteousness acceptable for man to stand in God’s holy presence. This righteousness is neither increased nor decreased. It’s perfect righteousness being Christ’s.
 
Hope by itself would be very lonely.

Love by itself would be very lonely.

Wouldn’t faith by itself be very lonely?

Why would God want our faith to be lonely?
 
Or, perhaps both you and Pax fail to understand the reason behind the parable.I never said, nor even implied, that Jesus misled the lawyer. The lawyer, by putting Jesus to the test, approached Him with an attitude of insincerity and superiority. Jesus was, in fact, trying to save him from his own self-deception.

He would probably do the same with someone who, this side of the cross, after hearing the gospel of the grace of God, would ask Him what works he must still do to be saved, what more he must do to secure his justification. What this one and the lawyer would have in common is unbelief.
I agree with all of this. However, the issue here is not about saving oneself by works. We all agree that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not by works of the flesh.

The issue is, what is the quality of the faith that saves? In this parable, Jesus demonstrates that what saves is keeping the commandments. This, we also all agree, cannot be done except by grace, through faith. What we seem to disagree about is that Catholics believe that the faith that saves is also a faith that MAKES us righteous, in addition to declaring us righteous. We believe that the HS is poured into us, regenerating or souls, and working within us to will and to do God’s pleasure. This infused (poured in) grace is what allows us to fulfill the commandments, such as loving one’s neighbor, as Jesus described in this parable.
 
Yes. This is regeneration. Spiritual rebirth. The believer is made alive to the things of God.Rom 4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (his faith) was credited (reckoned) to him as righteousness.” It was reckoned “to him” as righteousness, not “infused in him.”

Regeneration and justification are two different divine acts.
Perhaps it would be better to say that they are two different aspects of the same act? God does not justify the unregenerate, does He? Nor does He regenerate the unjustified…
The believer is “made righteous” not by “infusion” (a concept not found anywhere in Scripture), but by divine creation. That being, positionally, “a new creature in Christ” (Eph. 2:10; 2 Cor. 5:17). In this respect he (the believer) is as righteous as Christ; his righteousness being not his own, but Christ’s, his new federal Head2 Cor 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him…"This being irreversible. God has laid our sins on Christ (imputation) that He might lay the righteousness that is Christ’s upon us (imputation).
Perhaps we are having a semantics problem? Infusion is the pouring out of God’s grace into our hearts, which is what causes the new creation inside of us. We are not merely declared new, but made new.

We both agree that the righteousness of Christ is applied to us when we are justified. Notice how you quote the scripture “that we might **become **the righeousness of God in Him”.

We are not just “declared” righteous. God’s intention is that we become righteous. The Kindgom is implanted within us, and grows up unto Him.
Justification is not the forgiveness of sins. Look at it like Divine Bookkeeping:On the divine Ledger our sin is entered on the debit side. At the cross God transferred all of our indebtedness to His Son (imputation of our sins to Christ), leaving the debit side of the ledger absolutely clean.
Sin is what creates the debt. If it were not for our sins, there would be no debt. The debt was created by the wages of sin, which is death. Jesus paid for it.

Justification is the result of the forgiveness of sins. We are justified in our sight because our sins are forgiven. The price for them is paid by Jesus on the cross.

If we are not forgiven the debt, we have not been transferred from the Kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

" He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col 1:13-14
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But God doesn't stop there.  As a GIFT, God transferred the Divine Righteousness of His Son to the believer's right hand, or "*credit*" column.  IOW, the believer's account is not simply "*zeroed out*" (*i.e.,* the forgiveness of ALL sins), but is found with (imputed) a positive balance of the very righteousness of Christ Himself.This is Divine Justification.  The only righteousness acceptable for man to stand in God's holy presence.  This righteousness is neither increased nor decreased.  It's perfect righteousness being Christ's.
This is consistent with Apostolic Teaching. I suspect the aspects that are not are that many Reformers consider that this state applies to future sins as well as the past and present, and that God intends for us to be as righteous as we have been declared.

" If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9-10

Justification indeed does refer to forgiveness of sins. We are cleansed. Our sins are forgiven, and we are declared righteous before the throne of God.
 
Not really very absurd. My understanding is that the Catholic teaching is that you remain in a state of grace even if you commit venial sin. In fact you can commit a multitude of venial sins and still be in a state of grace. Yet James tells us that one stumble and we become guilty of all.
You are misreading James. James says if you go around judging people using the law to make yourself look good and to “demonstrate” how bad other people are then you will be judged on the same basis. That is why James says we should act in mercy to others so that mercy will be shown when we fall short.

As for venial sins, those sins do not destroy the relationship we have with God, they weaken the resolve to maintain that relationship but they dont destroy that relation ship.
Now, are you going to tell me that a man who sins continually, albeit what you would call venially, is truly righteous? Not by any definition of righteous I know. How can someone like this stand before God? Because our sins are covered.
You are misapplying that james passage, and cutting it short of the main teaching (verses 12-13). What it is saying is that if you go around like a pharisee judging others because they arent as “holy” as you, when it coems time for God to judge He will not give any leeway at your sentence. So the moral James concludes with is that if we show mercy God will show mercy.

Further, a soul who is guilty of venial sin cannot enter Heaven unless even those impurities are forgiven either in this life or in purgatory. Your “covering the filth” position doesnt work because it would mean God is letting a filthy diaper into his presence as long as it is wrapped in a beautiful gift box.
What need to cover if a person is truly made righteous?
The “cover” in that passage is not to be taken in the sense of imputation, it is to be taken in the sense that because God cannot technically forget the sin is overlooked, especially considering the wide testimony that sins are purified, washed away, etc (eg Ps 51), further if you keep reading the Psalm 32 a bigger picture emerges:2 Blessed is the man
whose sin the LORD does not count against him
and in whose spirit is no deceit.
3 When I kept silent,
my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night
your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was sapped
as in the heat of summer.
Selah
5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you
and did not cover up my iniquity.
I said, "I will confess
my transgressions to the LORD "—
and you forgave
the guilt of my sin.
Selah

6 Therefore let** everyone who is godly** pray to you
while you may be found;

11 Rejoice in the LORD and be glad, you righteous;
sing, all you who are upright in heart!


The description here is one of INNER transformation, not a covering. If it was a covering in the sense of imputing an alien status then “in whose spirit is no deceit” would be out of place, and his bones and weakened strength would not be cured. The phrases “everyone who is godly” and “upright in heart” dont fit either.

Remember, David was ALREADY a believer before he wrote this Ps 32. This Psalm was written because he lost his salvation through grave sin and had to repent to regain it (become justified again).
Do you really think that you have discovered something new, that your ideas are going to destroy Protestantism? I don’t really think so. They haven’t convinced me.
One thing needs to be made clear, I PERSONALLY did NOT come up with something new, as if the whole world was blind until I came along (God Forbid!). Catholics before me have been making these claims (I have, at most, rephrased things and added bits here and there to make a more specific case). With this information I am focusing my time on the real issue, and it goes far beyond the go-nowhere-cycle of Protestants appealing to Romans while Catholics appeal to James.

I am convinced that the information available, ESPECIALLY due to the free technology allowing maximum Bible study (eg online Lexicons that reference every occurrence of a word), will lead to the demise of the classical Protestant position. I have said this before, and I will say it again, it is no mistake that Protestant webpages and books defending Sola Fide do NOT address the usage of terms like “logizomai” in the Bible. .
 
This is downright silly. Never have I claimed to be righteous. I know I sin and I hate it, but I trust Jesus.
You can be righteous and you ARE righteous if you repent whenever you sin (1 Jn 1:9) and take care to do good.1 Jn 3 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he [Jesus] is righteous.
I hope you continue to devote all of your energy, and all of your time toward the goal of the total annihilation of Protestantism.

I’ve marked the date, June 13, 2013 at the earliest, June 13, 2018 at the latest.
This is a tidal wave coming which most people dont see coming. I have been going to (and continue to go to) major (popular) Protestant web pages and emailing them on this information regarding “impute” and other things like Abraham’s faith in Gen 12. The word is getting out.

Better yet, more and more Catholics are realizing the key issues here and they are getting the word out, and it is clear from their posts throughout this thread.

The honest truth is a few years ago, before I realized what the key issues were, I was under the impression Protestants presented a fair case from Scripture for their belief and that the Catholic position was simply preferable because it put more emphases on works. When I realized what the REAL issues were I discovered that passages like Romans 4 completely flew in the face of Protestantism, I discovered just how much of their position was on misreading and presumption, a foundation built on sand. All that time I thought they were putting Catholics to shame in their vast memorization of Scripture, only to realize just how much Scripture their position cant explain and ignores (eg the various comments on Romans 2, esp v12, is treated as an afterthought or hypothetical situtation which doesnt “fit” with the flow of Paul from Rom 1 and Romans 3-4).

Even more powerful was that I realized that most Protestants out there actually agree with the Catholic position, but they dont know it. If they knew what their own position actually taught they would be repulsed.
 
James.

I am convinced that the information available, ESPECIALLY due to the free technology allowing maximum Bible study (eg online Lexicons that reference every occurrence of a word), will lead to the demise of the classical Protestant position. I have said this before, and I will say it again, it is no mistake that Protestant webpages and books defending Sola Fide do NOT address the usage of terms like “logizomai” in the Bible. .
Just a simple google search came up with the site.

preceptaustin.org/romans_611-23.htm

In addition, as I have pointed out previously, most Protestants, including Calvin, recognized that salvation involves the imparting or infusing of a righteous nature. We place it under regeneration rather than justification. For Protestants of an Arminean bent it is even less problematic.
 
Just a simple google search came up with the site.

preceptaustin.org/romans_611-23.htm

In addition, as I have pointed out previously, most Protestants, including Calvin, recognized that salvation involves the imparting or infusing of a righteous nature. We place it under regeneration rather than justification. For Protestants of an Arminean bent it is even less problematic.
Are you one of those that believes a person is regenerated before they are justified?
 
Are you one of those that believes a person is regenerated before they are justified?
No, they will take place at the same time. Because the person has been regenerated he is considered righteous. The whole is because of faith.
 
No, they will take place at the same time. Because the person has been regenerated he is considered righteous. The whole is because of faith.
If this is really what you believe then the discussion is pure symantics. Our contention is that a person is washed, sanctified, and justified at the same time and that they are simultaneously a new creation. If you agree then we are in the same camp.

If you read over this thread you will see that there is a different perspective presented by some of the posters.
 
Or, perhaps both you and Pax fail to understand the reason behind the parable.I never said, nor even implied, that Jesus misled the lawyer. The lawyer, by putting Jesus to the test, approached Him with an attitude of insincerity and superiority. Jesus was, in fact, trying to save him from his own self-deception.

He would probably do the same with someone who, this side of the cross, after hearing the gospel of the grace of God, would ask Him what works he must still do to be saved, what more he must do to secure his justification. What this one and the lawyer would have in common is unbelief.
Jesus says that one must love God above all things and must love his neighbor as himself to be saved. If Jesus was not misleading the lawyer then this is a true statement for everyone. Belief is not the issue. You cannot love God unless you believe. Faith comes first but love is absolutely necessary. The simple clarity of this point and truth is undeniable.
 
Justification is not the forgiveness of sins.
If your sins are not forgiven then you are not justified. When one is justified, one is brought into friendship with God. If your sins are not forgiven, you are not in friendship with God.
 
We all agree that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not by works of the flesh.
No we don’t. Scripture is quote clear, indeed: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, a GIFT of God; not as a result of works".
 
No we don’t. Scripture is quote clear, indeed: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, a GIFT of God; not as a result of works”.
You appear to be putting your interpretation of a verse or two from one of Paul’s epistles ahead of what Our Savior Himself said in the parable of the sheep and the goats (Mt. 25, 31-46). Personally, I accept the words of Christ at face value and attach much more importance to them than to anything attributed to any of the other New Testament writers.
 
No we don’t. Scripture is quote clear, indeed: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, a GIFT of God; not as a result of works”.
I am only going to remind you one more time. Never forget verse 10 and never quote 8 and 9 without it. Doing so merely distorts God’s plan of salvation and His work of grace within us when we are justified.
 
If this is really what you believe then the discussion is pure symantics. Our contention is that a person is washed, sanctified, and justified at the same time and that they are simultaneously a new creation. If you agree then we are in the same camp.

If you read over this thread you will see that there is a different perspective presented by some of the posters.
That is why I have said that many differences are a matter of semantics.
 
I am only going to remind you one more time. Never forget verse 10 and never quote 8 and 9 without it. Doing so merely distorts God’s plan of salvation and His work of grace within us when we are justified.
While verse 10 is important in that we are saved for works, it does not mean that we are saved through those works. We accept God’s grace through faith, not through works. That is the proper statement of faith alone, saved through faith, not saved by faith.
 
You appear to be putting your interpretation of a verse or two from one of Paul’s epistles ahead of what Our Savior Himself said in the parable of the sheep and the goats (Mt. 25, 31-46). Personally, I accept the words of Christ at face value and attach much more importance to them than to anything attributed to any of the other New Testament writers.
Then you’ll agree that the Sheep, prior to the Sheep and Goat judgment, had passed from death to life, and, as Mt 25 proves, they do not come into judgment (Jn 5:24).
 
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